All Claims of The Son's Deity

[civic]

Since we know that the angel of the Lord isn't God in Zechariah 1, we know that Jacob didn't wrestle with God. It literally says he wrestled an angel and you can't see it.

the truth regarding the identity of the "special " "unique" " messenger/angel of the Lord whom is called YHWH on numerous occasions and is worshiped as YHWH which would be idolatry. And we know all angels of God REFUSE to be worshipped and will not allow any man to worship them.

YHWH(God Almighty) revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush (Ex. 3:2-15). It was I AM that spoke with Moses, we are told it was the angel of the Lord that appeared to him. Jesus said to the Jews that He was the I Am that appeared to Moses (John 8:58). The Word (John 1:1) the 2nd Person of the Trinity is who appeared and came down from heaven as the angel of Jehovah. He appeared as a man. This angel of the Lord is called Yahweh in (Gen. 19:1-13, 33). God went before the Hebrews in the wilderness. What they saw was the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire (Ex. 13:21-22). Paul declared it was Christ who appeared in the wilderness and it was Christ the Lord who was tempted.(1 Cor 10:1-12)

John 1:18 says, "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God/Son who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared of explained Him." And then there is John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath sen the Father." The point being made is the fact that the Son of God is the visible manifestation of God (Hebrews 1:3) and the kicker verse if you wil is John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. YOU HAVE NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS FORM." So Jesus here out His own mouth says you have neither heard the Fathers voice nor seen His form."

The angel of the Lord who is YHWH is worshiped as YHWH- the Lord God !

Since God took the form of a man in the person of the preincarnate Jesus Christ this has to mean that Jesus Christ is God. So on what basis do I come to this conclusion? On the basis of what Jesus Christ Himself said at John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hath seen the Father." And on the basis of the testimony of Old Testament saints themselves. Look at Genesis 16:13, "Then she/Hagar called the name OF THE LORD WHO spoke to her, Thou art a God who sees; for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him." Genesis 18 reading the whole chapter. Here is what vs1 states, "Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he/Abraham was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day." Please read the rest of the chapter and cross reference what Genesis 21:2 says regarding Genesis 18. "So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time OF WHICH GOD HAD SPOKEN TO HIM."

And who appeared to Isaac at Genesis 26:2? "And the Lord appeared to him and said, "Do not go down to Egypt, stay in the land of which I shall tell you." Now look at Genesis 26:3, "Sojourn in this land and I will be with you and bless you, for to your and to your descendants I will give all these lands, and I will ESTABLISH THE OATH WHICH I SWORE TO YOUR FATHER ABRAHAM."

Where did God swear this oath to Abraham ? Look at the whole chapter of Genesis 22 specifically verses 11-18. It was the angel of the Lord/Jesus Christ who swore the oath and He is identified as, what did you say, "God introduced Himself in the first person singular as "The Being." In fact, even the New Testament backs up this first person singular being swearing the oath by Himself at Hebrews 6:13, 14, "For when GOD made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD NOT SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF. saying, "I will surely bless you; and I will surely multiply you." If you believe that it was an angel that swore the oath on Gods behalf than why does the text say God swore the oath BY HIMSELF AND THERE IS NO ONE GREATER, especially angels who are created like the rest of us mere humans.


Gen 22:11-14
But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!"

"Here I am," he replied.

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."


Exodus 3:2, 5

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed…And he said, Draw not nigh thither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.”


Judg 6:11-28
The angel of the Lord came and sat down under the oak in Ophrah that belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, where his son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress to keep it from the Midianites. 12 When the angel of the Lord appeared to Gideon, he said, "The Lord is with you, mighty warrior."

13 "But sir," Gideon replied, "if the Lord is with us, why has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonders that our fathers told us about when they said, 'Did not the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has abandoned us and put us into the hand of Midian."

14 The Lord turned to him and said, "Go in the strength you have and save Israel out of Midian's hand. Am I not sending you?"

15 "But Lord,” Gideon asked, "how can I save Israel? My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my family."

16 The Lord answered, "I will be with you, and you will strike down all the Midianites together."

17 Gideon replied, "If now I have found favor in your eyes, give me a sign that it is really you talking to me. 18 Please do not go away until I come back and bring my offering and set it before you."

And the Lord said, "I will wait until you return."

19 Gideon went in, prepared a young goat, and from an ephah of flour he made bread without yeast. Putting the meat in a basket and its broth in a pot, he brought them out and offered them to him under the oak.

20 The angel of God said to him, "Take the meat and the unleavened bread, place them on this rock, and pour out the broth." And Gideon did so. 21 With the tip of the staff that was in his hand, the angel of the Lord touched the meat and the unleavened bread. Fire flared from the rock, consuming the meat and the bread. And the angel of the Lord disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the angel of the Lord, he exclaimed, "Ah, Sovereign Lord! I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face!"

23 But the Lord said to him, "Peace! Do not be afraid. You are not going to die."

24 So Gideon built an altar to the Lord there and called it The Lord is Peace. To this day it stands in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

25 That same night the Lord said to him, "Take the second bull from your father's herd, the one seven years old.Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it. 26 Then build a proper kind of altar to the Lord your God on the top of this height. Using the wood of the Asherah pole that you cut down, offer the second bull as a burnt offering."

27 So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the Lord told him. But because he was afraid of his family and the men of the town, he did it at night rather than in the daytime.

28 In the morning when the men of the town got up, there was Baal's altar, demolished, with the Asherah pole beside it cut down and the second bull sacrificed on the newly built altar!

Well the main function or a general definition of a "shaliach" is as follows:

A shaliaḥ (שָלִיחַ; pl. שְלִיחִים, sheliḥim) in Halakha is a Jewish legal or agent. Accordingly, a shaliaḥ performs an act of legal significance for the benefit of the sender, as opposed to him or herself.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach


A Chabad shliach (שליח, pl. שליחים/שלוחים, shlichim/shluchim) is a Chabad member sent out to promulgate Judaism and Chasidut around the world. Chabad shluchim today number about 4,000 worldwide, and can be found in many of even the most remote worldly locales.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliach_(Chabad)

Now, I am bringing this up for a very good reason and I want to cut to the chase of my point in this little exercise. The basic job of a "shaliach or the definition is an agent sent on a specfic mission to represent the interst of someon else. In short there are restrictions to the function of a shaliach and I will give you the best example.

Now, you have at Genesis 16:7 the very first appearance of the angel of the Lord. If you read the context from verse 7 to Genesis 17:1-2 you will discover that the Lord God Almighty is the speaker even though the the angel of the Lord is actually speaking. At verse 10 the angel of the Lord says that He will greatly multiply the descendents of Hagar. Then at Genesis 17:1 and 2 it's the Lord God Almighty who will multiply his descendents. You cannot get away from the fact that the same being is taking in the passages. Even at Genesis 16:13 Hagar says I have see the Lord God and am still alive.

Now, lets jump to Genesis 22 where God is going to test Abraham. You have the Lord God Almighty speaking from Genesis 22:1-10. There is no question about this fact. At verse 11 it states, "But the angel of the Lord called to him (Abraham) from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am." Then at verse 15 the angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time." (Note: why does the angel of the Lord have to call out for God Himself a second time from heaven?) Is not the Lord God Himself capable of calling out from heaven Himself. I mean He did call out from heaven at Mark 1:11. He did not need the so-called shaliah then.

After the angel of the Lord calls out from heaven the second time which is Genesis 22:15 here is what this so-called shaliach/emissary says, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld you son, you only son. Indeed, I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore etc."

So you see from following the sequence of events a shaliach is limited or he can only do so much on behalf of the sender. He cannot swear an oath for the sender as you see the scriptures say. He cannot multiply the seed of anyone as you see the scriptures say.

Not only that but the real kicker of all of this is found in the NT at Hebrews 6:13. The writer of the Hebrews states, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, VS14, SAYING, "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU , AND I WILL MULTIPLY YOU." This text is referring back to Genesis 22 and Abraham. A shaliach cannot swear an oath on behalf of the sender and it even says God swore by Himself. In short, the shaliach argument will not work and I maintain that the messenger of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

continued :

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in this passage.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

I. Plural pronouns used of God proving YHWH is Plural in Persons:

Click here for detailed study of plural references to God

A. Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. Remember the word God (elohim) is also plural every time it is used in the Old Testament. Gen 11:7 also includes a plural verb (confuse) which even further, through grammar reinforces the plural "elohim" and the plural pronoun US.

1. "Our" Gen 1:26
2. "Us" Gen 1:26, 3:22, 11:7; Isa 6:8
3. "We" Isa 6:8

B. These are the four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns:

1. "Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26
2. "Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22
3. "Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech." Genesis 11:7
4. "Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8

II. Christ is the identical image of God, angels are not

A. Jesus Christ is our co-creator who is the exact image of God.

1. "see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. " 2 Corinthians 4:4
2. "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. " Colossians 1:15
3. "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, " Hebrews 1:3

B. There is no reason to suggest the plural pronoun is the "plural of Majesty", since both Jesus and the Father are described as having the same image.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

the uni doctrine is so easily refuted as proven above in the last few posts.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You wouldn't agree with the results. You reject the literal pain text reading of basically everything the Bible says.

You do make your interpretation of the literal text reading of of basically everything the Bible says a pain.

Agreed

 

[Runningman]

John 14:28 is often taken out of context to allege that Jesus is not God. First of all, the doctrine of the incarnation teaches that Jesus:

“emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” Philippians 2:7–8

And it was only temporary, “for a little while” Hebrews 2:9 the Father was greater in glory and exaltation.

The Father was greater in that He was not subject to pain and illness and death—the Son was. The Father was greater in that He did not live in weariness and poverty and humiliation—the Son did. The “greatness” spoken of in this verse relates to role, not to essence.

I have to giggle. You were totally on board with Jesus being greater than Moses, but when the Bible explicitly identifies God as greater than Jesus, you are distancing yourself from it. This is what is called a bias.

 

[Runningman]

You do make your interpretation of the literal text reading of of basically everything the Bible says a pain.

Agreed

If one is just allowed to make up anything they want about what the Bible means, it will result is confusion. This is pretty much why Trinitarianism is split into literally 10s of thousands of denominations and Unitarians are not.

 

[Darrell L.]

So all Unitarians are confused, that goes without saying. Their confusion can be traced back to early debates in the Christian church regarding the nature of Christ and the Godhead. Groups such as the followers of Arius (early 4th century AD) challenged what became the Nicene consensus on the full divinity of Christ.

By the Reformation era, thinkers in Poland and Transylvania-such as Fausto Sozzini and others involved in the Polish Brethren-developed a more formal “Unitarian” theology, often called Socinianism. In the 18th and 19th centuries, Unitarianism took root in England and North America, with congregations establishing themselves under the name “Unitarian.”

Over time, some branches merged with Universalist beliefs, leading to the modern-day Unitarian Universalist (UU) associations, which are diverse in doctrinal positions.

 

[Runningman]

So all Unitarians are confused, that goes without saying. Their confusion can be traced back to early debates in the Christian church regarding the nature of Christ and the Godhead. Groups such as the followers of Arius (early 4th century AD) challenged what became the Nicene consensus on the full divinity of Christ.

By the Reformation era, thinkers in Poland and Transylvania-such as Fausto Sozzini and others involved in the Polish Brethren-developed a more formal “Unitarian” theology, often called Socinianism. In the 18th and 19th centuries, Unitarianism took root in England and North America, with congregations establishing themselves under the name “Unitarian.”

Over time, some branches merged with Universalist beliefs, leading to the modern-day Unitarian Universalist (UU) associations, which are diverse in doctrinal positions.

I would say Unitarian Universalists (UU) are not related to Christian Unitarianism. UUs are for all intents and purposes a secular group with no relation to Christianity.

However, Unitarianism is just a modern day label to describe the theological view of Christians. Labels are necessary when there are already so many labels. We can't just say "We're Christian" anymore as it's not clear what that really means anymore with so many non-Christian groups identifying as such.

 

[Blessed]

I identify as a Jesus Freak

 

[Darrell L.]

What will people think
When they hear that I'm a Jesus Freak?
What will people do
When they find that's it's true?

Jesus is the Way.

 

[civic]

You wouldn't agree with the results. You reject the literal pain text reading of basically everything the Bible says.

projecting once again. pot calling the kettle black

 

[Runningman]

projecting once again. pot calling the kettle black

Are you the pot or the kettle?

 

[Bronson]

Who would have ever thought that the ancient heresy of Arianism would be revived in modern times

Modern Unitarianism lost its faith in any kind of God and joined with the Universalists in the 1960’s. Today, one can be an atheist or a witch and become a Unitarian.

The demise of classic Unitarianism does not mean the demise of Arianism. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, the Way, Assemblies of Yahweh, and a dozen other Arian cults still spend a large proportion of their time, energy, and money attacking the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Runningman]

Who would have ever thought that the ancient heresy of Arianism would be revived in modern times

Modern Unitarianism lost its faith in any kind of God and joined with the Universalists in the 1960’s. Today, one can be an atheist or a witch and become a Unitarian.

The demise of classic Unitarianism does not mean the demise of Arianism. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, the Way, Assemblies of Yahweh, and a dozen other Arian cults still spend a large proportion of their time, energy, and money attacking the doctrine of the Trinity.

This same argument applies to the various cults of Trinitarianism. They've been bleeding numbers for decades and moving on to Christianity.

 

[Bronson]

Most orthodox churches believe in the Trinity. Belief in the Trinity is considered the hallmark of authentic Christian doctrine. It was our acceptance of the Trinity that brought Christianity “in out of the cold,” allowing us to break free from being considered a cult such as Unitarians.

While the word "Trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible, its doctrine is supported by scriptural evidence of one God existing as three distinct, co-equal, and co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Key biblical passages like the baptism of Jesus Matthew 3:16–17 and the Great Commission Matthew 28:19 illustrate the presence of all three, and verses like Deuteronomy 6:4 establish there is only one God.

Trinitarian theology puts the Trinity at the center of all doctrinal understanding, influencing everything we believe and understand about God.

 

[Victoria]

So all Unitarians are confused, that goes without saying. Their confusion can be traced back to early debates in the Christian church regarding the nature of Christ and the Godhead. Groups such as the followers of Arius (early 4th century AD) challenged what became the Nicene consensus on the full divinity of Christ.

By the Reformation era, thinkers in Poland and Transylvania-such as Fausto Sozzini and others involved in the Polish Brethren-developed a more formal “Unitarian” theology, often called Socinianism. In the 18th and 19th centuries, Unitarianism took root in England and North America, with congregations establishing themselves under the name “Unitarian.”

Over time, some branches merged with Universalist beliefs, leading to the modern-day Unitarian Universalist (UU) associations, which are diverse in doctrinal positions.

Who would have ever thought that the ancient heresy of Arianism would be revived in modern times

Modern Unitarianism lost its faith in any kind of God and joined with the Universalists in the 1960’s. Today, one can be an atheist or a witch and become a Unitarian.

The demise of classic Unitarianism does not mean the demise of Arianism. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, the Way, Assemblies of Yahweh, and a dozen other Arian cults still spend a large proportion of their time, energy, and money attacking the doctrine of the Trinity.

@Darrell L. @Bronson

So this is why Unitarianism comes across as cult-like.
Thank you both SO much for helping me to connect the dots!


Arianism is a Christological doctrine that rejects the traditional notion of the Trinity, teaching that Jesus was created by God and is therefore distinct from God. It is named after its proponent Arius and is regarded as heretical by most modern mainstream branches of Christianity. Arianism is held by a minority of modern denominations, although some of these groups espouse related doctrines such as Socinianism, and others avoid the term "Arian" because of its historically negative connotations. Wikipedia


Arianism, in Christianity, the Christological (concerning the doctrine of Christ) position that Jesus, as the Son of God, was created by God. It was proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius and was popular throughout much of the Eastern and Western Roman empires, even after it was denounced as a heresy by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.

Beliefs

Arianism is often considered to be a form of Unitarian theology in that it stresses God’s unity at the expense of the notion of the Trinity, the doctrine that three distinct persons are united in one Godhead. Arius’s basic premise was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent (not dependent for its existence on anything else) and immutable; the Son, who is not self-existent, cannot therefore be the self-existent and immutable God. Because the Godhead is unique, it cannot be shared or communicated. Because the Godhead is immutable, the Son, who is mutable, must, therefore, be deemed a creature who has been called into existence out of nothing and has had a beginning. Moreover, the Son can have no direct knowledge of the Father, since the Son is finite and of a different order of existence.

According to its opponents, especially the bishop St. Athanasius, Arius’s teaching reduced the Son to a demigod, reintroduced polytheism (since worship of the Son was not abandoned), and undermined the Christian concept of redemption, since only he who was truly God could be deemed to have reconciled humanity to the Godhead.


Britannica:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Arianism

 

[Runningman]

Most orthodox churches believe in the Trinity. Belief in the Trinity is considered the hallmark of authentic Christian doctrine. It was our acceptance of the Trinity that brought Christianity “in out of the cold,” allowing us to break free from being considered a cult such as Unitarians.

While the word "Trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible, its doctrine is supported by scriptural evidence of one God existing as three distinct, co-equal, and co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Key biblical passages like the baptism of Jesus Matthew 3:16–17 and the Great Commission Matthew 28:19 illustrate the presence of all three, and verses like Deuteronomy 6:4 establish there is only one God.

Trinitarian theology puts the Trinity at the center of all doctrinal understanding, influencing everything we believe and understand about God.

Since the trinity is not explained, mentioned, or supported with Scripture then that makes trinitarianism a cult. Longevity of a cult and member count plays no significance in giving it credibility. What you would need to do to actually prove that the trinity is real, is actually counter-productive to Scripture: you would have to try to debunk the Bible which is essentially what many trinitarians are already trying to do on this forum.

Instead of promoting what the Bible plainly says, you're all reinterpreting, making philosophical concepts and terms, changing the meaning of words, and calling it "spiritual" when actually God or the prophets never repeated your kind of statements. You all couldn't even discuss the trinity using the vocabulary the Bible provides.

Unitarian theology has been taught in synagogues and churches for thousands of years. The concept is simple, that the only God is described as an individual known as YHWH the Father. The Bible explicitly refers to God as an individual, rather than a group, thousands of times.

 

[Bronson]

@Darrell L. @Bronson

So this is why Unitarianism comes across as cult-like.
Thank you both SO much for helping me to connect the dots!


Arianism is a Christological doctrine that rejects the traditional notion of the Trinity, teaching that Jesus was created by God and is therefore distinct from God. It is named after its proponent Arius and is regarded as heretical by most modern mainstream branches of Christianity. Arianism is held by a minority of modern denominations, although some of these groups espouse related doctrines such as Socinianism, and others avoid the term "Arian" because of its historically negative connotations. Wikipedia


Arianism, in Christianity, the Christological (concerning the doctrine of Christ) position that Jesus, as the Son of God, was created by God. It was proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius and was popular throughout much of the Eastern and Western Roman empires, even after it was denounced as a heresy by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.

Beliefs

Arianism is often considered to be a form of Unitarian theology in that it stresses God’s unity at the expense of the notion of the Trinity, the doctrine that three distinct persons are united in one Godhead. Arius’s basic premise was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent (not dependent for its existence on anything else) and immutable; the Son, who is not self-existent, cannot therefore be the self-existent and immutable God. Because the Godhead is unique, it cannot be shared or communicated. Because the Godhead is immutable, the Son, who is mutable, must, therefore, be deemed a creature who has been called into existence out of nothing and has had a beginning. Moreover, the Son can have no direct knowledge of the Father, since the Son is finite and of a different order of existence.

According to its opponents, especially the bishop St. Athanasius, Arius’s teaching reduced the Son to a demigod, reintroduced polytheism (since worship of the Son was not abandoned), and undermined the Christian concept of redemption, since only he who was truly God could be deemed to have reconciled humanity to the Godhead.


Britannica:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Arianism

One does not realise how dangerous this false doctrine is until you dig into it.

 

[Bronson]

Since the trinity is not explained, mentioned, or supported with Scripture then that makes trinitarianism a cult. Longevity of a cult and member count plays no significance in giving it credibility. What you would need to do to actually prove that the trinity is real, is actually counter-productive to Scripture: you would have to try to debunk the Bible which is essentially what many trinitarians are already trying to do on this forum.

Instead of promoting what the Bible plainly says, you're all reinterpreting, making philosophical concepts and terms, changing the meaning of words, and calling it "spiritual" when actually God or the prophets never repeated your kind of statements. You all couldn't even discuss the trinity using the vocabulary the Bible provides.

Unitarian theology has been taught in synagogues and churches for thousands of years. The concept is simple, that the only God is described as an individual known as YHWH the Father. The Bible explicitly refers to God as an individual, rather than a group, thousands of times.

Right... one God with three distinct persons.



The Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that there is one God who exists in three co-equal and co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. This means there is only one divine essence, but within that single Godhead, there are three distinct persons, not three separate gods.

 

[FreeInChrist]

This same argument applies to the various cults of Trinitarianism. They've been bleeding numbers for decades and moving on to Christianity.

The first defense of the doctrine of the Trinity was by Tertullian, who was born around AD 150-160, explicitly "defined" the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended his theology against Praxeas.

Praxeas, if you do not know...Praxeas was a Christian theologian from Asia Minor in the late 2nd to early 3rd century, known for his belief in the unity of the Godhead and opposition to the division of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Believed in the three but as one in the Godhead.

YOU WANT EARLIER?

Polycarp ... a diciple of the apostle John.... So one would think he got some learning from one who was right there with Jesus

Polycarp, ( 69 - 155 AD) in his last prayer before martyrdom, acknowledged a tri-personal God, referring to the Father, His beloved Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, indicating an early understanding of the Trinity. His teachings reflect a belief in the distinct persons of the Godhead while affirming their unity as one God.

Ignatius of Antioch... you should bookmark this so you can reference it a lot.

Ignatius of Antioch is one of the earliest Church Fathers to reference the concept of the Trinity, although he did not use the term "Trinity" itself. He emphasized the distinct roles of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in his writings, indicating an early understanding of their relationship within the Godhead.

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Ignatius of Antioch's Understanding of the Trinity​

Early Context​

Ignatius of Antioch, an early Church Father who lived around 35-107 AD, is one of the first known leaders to reference the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in his writings. However, the term "Trinity" was not yet in use during his time. His thoughts on the Godhead reflect a developing understanding of the relationship between these three persons.

Key Beliefs​

• Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: Ignatius emphasized the distinct roles of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He referred to God primarily as the Father of Jesus Christ, indicating a close relationship between them.
• Divine Sonship: He acknowledged Jesus as "God" multiple times, affirming His divine nature and pre-existence. Ignatius stated that Jesus was "born of Mary" and conceived by the Holy Spirit, highlighting both His humanity and divinity.
• Unity and Distinction: While Ignatius recognized the distinct roles of each person in the Godhead, he did not articulate a systematic theology of the Trinity as later defined. His writings suggest a belief in their unity in purpose and essence, though he focused more on practical implications for faith and community.

Notable Quotes​

• Ignatius described Christians as "stones of the Father’s temple," indicating a communal aspect of faith that involves the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit working together in believers' lives.
• He often used analogies to express the relationship among the three, such as comparing the Church to a temple built by the Father, with Christ as the cornerstone and the Holy Spirit as the guiding force.

Conclusion​

Ignatius of Antioch laid foundational thoughts about the Trinity, emphasizing the importance of each person in the Godhead while contributing to the evolving understanding of this doctrine in early Christianity. His writings reflect a blend of reverence for the divine and practical guidance for the Christian community.

AND LET US NOT LEAVE OUT THEOPHILUS OF ANTIOCH

Theophilus of Antioch is another early Church Father who referenced the Trinity, using the term in his work "Ad Autolycum." Both Ignatius and Theophilus contributed to the early understanding of the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Theophilus of Antioch​

• Time Period: 169–181 AD
• Key Contributions: Theophilus is noted for being the first to use the actual word "Trinity" (Greek: Trias) in his work "Ad Autolycum." He referred to God, His Word, and His Wisdom, linking them to the creation narrative in Genesis.

Here is a small chart on the 3.

Ignatius of Antioch	Early 2nd century	Mentioned Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in letters
Theophilus of Antioch	169–181 AD	First to use the term "Trinity" in his writings
Polycarp of Smyrna	70-155/160 AD	Prayed to the Father through Jesus, indicating a triadic view

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Church Father​

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Time Period​

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Key Contributions​

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SO IT WAS NOT AS LATE AS MANY THINK.... THE IDEA OF THE tRINITY AND IT WAS NOT AN INVENTION OF THE CHURCH LATER ON.