Runningman
Active Member
That's exactly what I believe too.
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
- Start date
Peterlag
Active Member
What do we disagree on?
Runningman
Active Member
I'm not sure, but maybe we disagree about nothing.
Peterlag
Active Member
Such an important subject matter like the Trinity and the Bible is silent on all of it...
It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.
If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught.
There's reasons why the Bible does not teach the Trinity in one whole paragraph in a few different places or a whole chapter or two on it. There's reasons why there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. There's reasons why there was never a debate about the Trinity in Scripture like we see with justification by works or who should be circumcised. There's reasons why there's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.
If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught.
There's reasons why the Bible does not teach the Trinity in one whole paragraph in a few different places or a whole chapter or two on it. There's reasons why there's no teaching on why God would come to the earth as a man. There's reasons why there was never a debate about the Trinity in Scripture like we see with justification by works or who should be circumcised. There's reasons why there's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
Runningman
Active Member
God, Jesus, the prophets, and apostles didn't talk about Trinitarianism for the same reason they didn't talk about Mormonism, Islam, or whatever else people believe in nowadays. For one, those religions didn't exist in the first century and it would have been irrelevant. It would also be confusing and distracting from their goals. Yes, they did warn of destructive heresies, but didn't spend much time explaining many details about them, and for good reason. They mainly just wanted to build up the faith and help believers be strong in what they received.
We're in a completely different ball game in the modern day. We're now basically trying to undo the deception trinitarians have spread all over the globe. Imagine trying to help people who have it in their heart and mind that they are followers of Jesus to understand they don't believe mostly anything he says. So you show them what the Bible says and they flat-out reject it. It takes a lot of patience and persistence because progress can be slow. The truth will attract those with a humble heart and be a stumbling block to those skilled at lawyering their way out of everything using philosophy.
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Yes, when the Father testified about Jesus in His baptism.
Joh 5:37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified about Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
They are, if you believe what Jesus said in John 5:37.
Then whose voice was that in Exodus 3:14? Same "I am" in John 8:58.
Jesus is the Word, revealed Himself to Samuel.
1Sa 3:21 And the LORD appeared again at Shiloh, because the LORD revealed Himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of the LORD.
amazing grace
Active Member
How did Yahweh appear and reveal himself to Samuel? by His word, by speaking 'the word of the LORD' is Yahweh's word, Yahweh's speech, Yahweh's communication to someone.
Hebrew for 'word' - dabar - speech, word, speaking, thing; speech, saying, utterance, word, words
Runningman
Active Member
Can we agree that the I AM is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as Exodus 3:14,15 says? Yet Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob according to Acts 3:13. That's why John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14,15 are unrelated. You can't just find the words "I am" anywhere in the Bible say that's God in Exodus 3. That's not how this works.
Peterlag
Active Member
I help a lot of people on Facebook. Here to many are brain dead. A few days ago I showed a guy on here that Matthew 28:19 was not in the early manuscripts. And he showed me it was in his Bible and asked me if it was in mine. So here you are dealing with folks who are a bit slow in understanding. The sad part is they think they are experts.
Runningman
Active Member
What you're describing is a well known phenomena called the Dunning–Kruger effect. Unlearned and inexperienced people often think they know more than they do which gives them an illusion of confidence. Why? Because it worked well for them in their trinitarian organization before they spoke to anyone else outside about it. As you can see, when you show trinitarians that there is no trinity in the Bible, sometimes they don't receive that very well because they firmly thought the trinity was there.
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Peterlag
Active Member
I have so many say okay here's a verse that proves the trinity. And before I even read it I say to myself this can't be a real verse to prove the trinity because there is no trinity. And then I read it and see they are reading into it or it's a bad translation or they took it out of context. And yet they all think they are experts.
Peterlag
Active Member
I have so many say okay here's a verse that proves the trinity...
And before I even read it I say to myself this can't be a real verse to prove the trinity because there is no trinity. And then I read it and see they are reading into it or it's a bad translation or they took it out of context. And yet they all think they are experts.
A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ.
The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.
And before I even read it I say to myself this can't be a real verse to prove the trinity because there is no trinity. And then I read it and see they are reading into it or it's a bad translation or they took it out of context. And yet they all think they are experts.
A study of the history of the Christian Church shows a definite development in the doctrine of the Trinity over the centuries. For example, the early form of the Apostles Creed (believed to date back to shortly after the time of the apostles themselves) does not mention the Trinity or the dual nature of Christ.
The Nicene Creed that was written in 325 AD and modified later added the material about Jesus Christ being “eternally begotten” and the "true God” and about the Holy Spirit being “Lord.” But it was the Athanasian Creed that was most likely composed in the latter part of the 4th century or possibly even as early as the 5th century that was the first creed to explicitly state the doctrine of the Trinity.
Runningman
Active Member
Pretty much all of their doctrines are not formalized in the Bible, but rather developed over the centuries. Water baptism according to Matthew 28:19 is one of them. Even the canon of the Bible was not itself formalized until the 4th century. I am glad they didn't include some things, but you gotta wonder what they decided to not include in the canon of the Bible and can they be trusted with deciding for us which books/letters are authorized? Probably not, but they seemed to have did a decent job. The Bible is a very Unitarian book so it worked out ok. Some of the other possible writings that could have ended up (but did not) in the Bible have a lot of explicit trinitarian references.
civic
Active Member
FALSE
The word "trinity" is not mentioned but the idea of the Plural God of the bible begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. Its from cover to cover.
next fallacy.
civic
Active Member
The OP stands irrefutable.
There are far more claims of The Son's deity than I was led to believe by conventional minimalization; but hundreds were not necessary. In God-breathed Scripture, only one of them was necessary to state the truth.
These claims are a more complete portrait of what the apostle John meant when he wrote, "The one who believes in The Son has eternal life. The one who rejects The Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him" [John 3:36]. Rejecting The Son's deity is in fact rejecting The Son, which Jesus warns explicitly [John 8:24].
BY CATEGORY
Actions of Yahweh [22]
Answers prayer ⇒ [3x] John 14:13, 14:14, 16:26.
Draws all people to Himself ⇒ [1x] John 12:32.
Eliminates death itself ⇒ [2x] 1 Cor 15:26; 2 Tim 1:10.
Forgives sin ⇒ [1x] Mark 2:5.
Fulfills all things (or: fills the universe) ⇒ [1x] Eph 4:10.
Gives life ⇒ [3x] John 5:21, 21:22; 1 Cor 15:45.
Influences human action (despite no longer being on Earth)
⇒ [7x] 1 Cor 1:8a; 11:32; 16:7; 1 Tim 1:12, 1:16b; 2 Tim 1:12c; Jude 1:24.
Nullified [the power of] The Law ⇒ [1x] Eph 2:15.
Purifies for Himself an elect people (λαός περιούσιος) ⇒ [1x] Titus 2:14.
Resurrects Himself from the dead ⇒ [1x] John 2:19.
Transforms all believers’ bodies into His own likeness ⇒ [1x] Phil 3:21.
Characteristics of Yahweh [30]
Eternal ⇒ [6x] John 1:1a; 1:2; 17:5b; 17:24; 1 John 1:1, 1:2.
Immutable ⇒ [2x] 2 Tim 2:13c; Heb 13:8.
Impassible ⇒ [2x] Phil 2:7a; 2:7b.
Inscrutable ⇒ [2x] Matt 11:27a; John 8:19b.
Sinless ⇒ [2x] John 8:46; 1 John 3:5.
Omniscient (accounting for kenosis and difference in role)
⇒ [4x] John 2:24, 2:25, 16:30a; 21:17.
Otherworldly ⇒ [12x] John 5:34, 6:46, 8:23, 8:42, 13:3, 15:5, 16:28, 16:30c; Rom 8:3;
1 Cor 15:47; Eph 4:9; 1 Tim 1:15.
Conflations, Other [27]
Ascriptions ⇒ [2x]
Luke 1:76 (The Most High); Rom 14:9 (Lord of the Living and the Dead).
Assertions ⇒ [4x]
John 8:12 (I am The Light of the World).
John 11:25 (I am The Ressurection and The Life).
John 14:6 (I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life).
John 16:33 (I have conquered the World).
Born of ⇒ [1x] 1 John 3:1.
Denying Him results in Hell ⇒ [1x] 2 Tim 2:12.
Equal Authority and Ownership to The Father ⇒ [2x] John 16:15, 17:10.
Equal Possessor of God’s glory, which Yahweh shares with no one [« Isa 42:8]
⇒ [1x] John 17:5a.
Knowing The Son equals knowing The Father ⇒ [4x] Matt 11:27b; John 8:19c; 14:7; 14:8.
Knowing equals Eternal Life ⇒ [1x] John 17:3.
One with The Father and/or The Spirit ontologically
⇒ [8x] John 10:30, 10:38, 14:10, 14:11, 14:23, 17:11, 17:21: 17:22.
Seeing The Son equals seeing The Father ⇒ [1x] John 14:9.
Working of The Son equated to working of The Father ⇒ [2x] John 5:17, 5:19.
Devotion due to Yahweh [21]
Devotional Belief in (not mundane belief, confidence, or trust)
⇒ [9x] John 1:7, 1:12, 14:1; Eph 1:13, 1:15; Col 1:4; 1 Tim 1:16c; 2 Tim 1:12b; Phlm 1:5.
of Equal Honor to The Father ⇒ [1x] John 5:23.
Object of the Highest Love, due only to the God of The Shema
⇒ [4x] Matt 10:37; Luke 14:26; 1 Cor 16:22; Eph 6:24.
United to ⇒ [3x] Rom 7:4; 1 Cor 6:17; Eph 5:32.
Worship of ⇒ [4x] Eph 5:19; Rev 5:13; Rev 22:3, 22:5a-b.
Direct Equation [69]
Called "Lord" in the sense of "Yahweh" ⇒ [22x]
Luke 1:16, 1:17, 1:43, 1:68, 1:76; John 20:28b; Acts 9:17, 19:5, 21:13, 21:14;
Rom 10:9, 10:12; 1 Cor 1:2, 1:8b; 8:6c; 12:3; Eph 4:5; Phil 2:11b; 3:20; Jude 1:4, 1:14;
Rev 22:5c
Called "God" ⇒ [17x]
Luke 1:16, 1:68; John 1:1c; 1:18; 20:28c; Rom 9:5, 14:10, 14:12; 1 Cor 5:13; 1 Tim 3:15-16; Titus 1:3, 2:13; Heb 1:8; 2 Pet 1:1; 1 John 5:20; 2 John 1:9; Jude 1:25.
Equal or Identical to God ⇒ [3x] Phil 2:6a; 2:6b; Heb 1:3b.
Monogenic Sonship which denotes the same essence
⇒ [3x] John 3:16, 3:18; 1 John 4:9.
Called The Kabod YHWH / The Glory of God, who is Yahweh
⇒ [2x] Heb 1:3a; Rev 21:23c.
Called the “I AM” or “I Am He,” who is Yahweh
⇒ [3x] John 8:24 (by cataphora); 8:28 (ibid.); 8:58.
Direct OT Citation or Allusion substituting for Yahweh or The Kabod YHWH [19]
John 1:23 (Isa 40:3); John 3:13 (Prov 30:4); Rom 9:32 (Isa 8:13-14, 28:16);
Rom 10:13 (Joel 2:32); Rom 14:11 (Isa 45:23); 1 Cor 1:31 (Jer 9:24[23]);
1 Cor 2:16 (Isa 40:13); 1 Cor 10:4; 1 Cor 10:9; Eph 4:8 (Isa 68:19-21[Eng. 18-20]);
Eph 5:14a-b (Isa 26:19-20); Eph 5:14c (Isa 60:1-2); Phil 2:10-11a (Isa 45:23-24);
2 Tim 2:19 (Num 16:5); 2 Tim 4:14 (Ps 28:4); Jude 1:5b (e.g., Exod 13:9);
Jude 1:5c (Num 1:35); Rev 21:23b (Isa 60:19-20); Rev 22:5a-b (Isa 60:19-20).
Offices of Yahweh [17]
Apportioner to each human his lot in life ⇒ [2x] 1 Cor 7:17; Eph 4:11.
Creator ⇒ [6x] John 1:3; 1:10; 1:11; 1 Cor 8:6d; Col 3:10 (of the New Man, the born-again
aspect); Heb 1:2c.
Judge, Eschatological/Cosmic ⇒ [3x] John 12:31; 2 Tim 4:1, 4:8.
King of Heaven ⇒ [3x] 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 6:9; Rev 22:5d.
Rewarder of each human [« Prov 24:12, exclusive domain of YHWH]
⇒ [2x] Matt 16:27; Rom 2:6.
Shepherd, Only [1]
⇒ John 10:14-16 (“The Good Shepherd” and “One Shepherd” for His “own”).
There are far more claims of The Son's deity than I was led to believe by conventional minimalization; but hundreds were not necessary. In God-breathed Scripture, only one of them was necessary to state the truth.
These claims are a more complete portrait of what the apostle John meant when he wrote, "The one who believes in The Son has eternal life. The one who rejects The Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him" [John 3:36]. Rejecting The Son's deity is in fact rejecting The Son, which Jesus warns explicitly [John 8:24].
BY CATEGORY
Actions of Yahweh [22]
Answers prayer ⇒ [3x] John 14:13, 14:14, 16:26.
Draws all people to Himself ⇒ [1x] John 12:32.
Eliminates death itself ⇒ [2x] 1 Cor 15:26; 2 Tim 1:10.
Forgives sin ⇒ [1x] Mark 2:5.
Fulfills all things (or: fills the universe) ⇒ [1x] Eph 4:10.
Gives life ⇒ [3x] John 5:21, 21:22; 1 Cor 15:45.
Influences human action (despite no longer being on Earth)
⇒ [7x] 1 Cor 1:8a; 11:32; 16:7; 1 Tim 1:12, 1:16b; 2 Tim 1:12c; Jude 1:24.
Nullified [the power of] The Law ⇒ [1x] Eph 2:15.
Purifies for Himself an elect people (λαός περιούσιος) ⇒ [1x] Titus 2:14.
Resurrects Himself from the dead ⇒ [1x] John 2:19.
Transforms all believers’ bodies into His own likeness ⇒ [1x] Phil 3:21.
Characteristics of Yahweh [30]
Eternal ⇒ [6x] John 1:1a; 1:2; 17:5b; 17:24; 1 John 1:1, 1:2.
Immutable ⇒ [2x] 2 Tim 2:13c; Heb 13:8.
Impassible ⇒ [2x] Phil 2:7a; 2:7b.
Inscrutable ⇒ [2x] Matt 11:27a; John 8:19b.
Sinless ⇒ [2x] John 8:46; 1 John 3:5.
Omniscient (accounting for kenosis and difference in role)
⇒ [4x] John 2:24, 2:25, 16:30a; 21:17.
Otherworldly ⇒ [12x] John 5:34, 6:46, 8:23, 8:42, 13:3, 15:5, 16:28, 16:30c; Rom 8:3;
1 Cor 15:47; Eph 4:9; 1 Tim 1:15.
Conflations, Other [27]
Ascriptions ⇒ [2x]
Luke 1:76 (The Most High); Rom 14:9 (Lord of the Living and the Dead).
Assertions ⇒ [4x]
John 8:12 (I am The Light of the World).
John 11:25 (I am The Ressurection and The Life).
John 14:6 (I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life).
John 16:33 (I have conquered the World).
Born of ⇒ [1x] 1 John 3:1.
Denying Him results in Hell ⇒ [1x] 2 Tim 2:12.
Equal Authority and Ownership to The Father ⇒ [2x] John 16:15, 17:10.
Equal Possessor of God’s glory, which Yahweh shares with no one [« Isa 42:8]
⇒ [1x] John 17:5a.
Knowing The Son equals knowing The Father ⇒ [4x] Matt 11:27b; John 8:19c; 14:7; 14:8.
Knowing equals Eternal Life ⇒ [1x] John 17:3.
One with The Father and/or The Spirit ontologically
⇒ [8x] John 10:30, 10:38, 14:10, 14:11, 14:23, 17:11, 17:21: 17:22.
Seeing The Son equals seeing The Father ⇒ [1x] John 14:9.
Working of The Son equated to working of The Father ⇒ [2x] John 5:17, 5:19.
Devotion due to Yahweh [21]
Devotional Belief in (not mundane belief, confidence, or trust)
⇒ [9x] John 1:7, 1:12, 14:1; Eph 1:13, 1:15; Col 1:4; 1 Tim 1:16c; 2 Tim 1:12b; Phlm 1:5.
of Equal Honor to The Father ⇒ [1x] John 5:23.
Object of the Highest Love, due only to the God of The Shema
⇒ [4x] Matt 10:37; Luke 14:26; 1 Cor 16:22; Eph 6:24.
United to ⇒ [3x] Rom 7:4; 1 Cor 6:17; Eph 5:32.
Worship of ⇒ [4x] Eph 5:19; Rev 5:13; Rev 22:3, 22:5a-b.
Direct Equation [69]
Called "Lord" in the sense of "Yahweh" ⇒ [22x]
Luke 1:16, 1:17, 1:43, 1:68, 1:76; John 20:28b; Acts 9:17, 19:5, 21:13, 21:14;
Rom 10:9, 10:12; 1 Cor 1:2, 1:8b; 8:6c; 12:3; Eph 4:5; Phil 2:11b; 3:20; Jude 1:4, 1:14;
Rev 22:5c
Called "God" ⇒ [17x]
Luke 1:16, 1:68; John 1:1c; 1:18; 20:28c; Rom 9:5, 14:10, 14:12; 1 Cor 5:13; 1 Tim 3:15-16; Titus 1:3, 2:13; Heb 1:8; 2 Pet 1:1; 1 John 5:20; 2 John 1:9; Jude 1:25.
Equal or Identical to God ⇒ [3x] Phil 2:6a; 2:6b; Heb 1:3b.
Monogenic Sonship which denotes the same essence
⇒ [3x] John 3:16, 3:18; 1 John 4:9.
Called The Kabod YHWH / The Glory of God, who is Yahweh
⇒ [2x] Heb 1:3a; Rev 21:23c.
Called the “I AM” or “I Am He,” who is Yahweh
⇒ [3x] John 8:24 (by cataphora); 8:28 (ibid.); 8:58.
Direct OT Citation or Allusion substituting for Yahweh or The Kabod YHWH [19]
John 1:23 (Isa 40:3); John 3:13 (Prov 30:4); Rom 9:32 (Isa 8:13-14, 28:16);
Rom 10:13 (Joel 2:32); Rom 14:11 (Isa 45:23); 1 Cor 1:31 (Jer 9:24[23]);
1 Cor 2:16 (Isa 40:13); 1 Cor 10:4; 1 Cor 10:9; Eph 4:8 (Isa 68:19-21[Eng. 18-20]);
Eph 5:14a-b (Isa 26:19-20); Eph 5:14c (Isa 60:1-2); Phil 2:10-11a (Isa 45:23-24);
2 Tim 2:19 (Num 16:5); 2 Tim 4:14 (Ps 28:4); Jude 1:5b (e.g., Exod 13:9);
Jude 1:5c (Num 1:35); Rev 21:23b (Isa 60:19-20); Rev 22:5a-b (Isa 60:19-20).
Offices of Yahweh [17]
Apportioner to each human his lot in life ⇒ [2x] 1 Cor 7:17; Eph 4:11.
Creator ⇒ [6x] John 1:3; 1:10; 1:11; 1 Cor 8:6d; Col 3:10 (of the New Man, the born-again
aspect); Heb 1:2c.
Judge, Eschatological/Cosmic ⇒ [3x] John 12:31; 2 Tim 4:1, 4:8.
King of Heaven ⇒ [3x] 1 Cor 15:24; Eph 6:9; Rev 22:5d.
Rewarder of each human [« Prov 24:12, exclusive domain of YHWH]
⇒ [2x] Matt 16:27; Rom 2:6.
Shepherd, Only [1]
⇒ John 10:14-16 (“The Good Shepherd” and “One Shepherd” for His “own”).
civic
Active Member
The Son's claims are undeniable
His Disciples teachings about His Deity are undeniable
Those He healed whom were Jews worshiped Him.
The OT and NT descriptions of Him being called God/YHWH are undeniable.
All heaven worships Him on the throne as God.
The biblical testimony concerning the Sons Deity is undeniable. I started a thread a while ago where it has 160 names titles and descriptions of the Son that declare His Deity and that no man could ever be called them unless that man was also God. He said and did only the things God can say and do. No man can make this claims which is why the Jewish leaders on numerous occasions trie to stone Him for blasphemy- you a mere man make yourself out to be YHWH/God.
The Uni's deny the biblical narrative regarding His claims at least the Jews recognized His claims to be God and rejected them. They are both in the same boat in the end denying Christ.
His Disciples teachings about His Deity are undeniable
Those He healed whom were Jews worshiped Him.
The OT and NT descriptions of Him being called God/YHWH are undeniable.
All heaven worships Him on the throne as God.
The biblical testimony concerning the Sons Deity is undeniable. I started a thread a while ago where it has 160 names titles and descriptions of the Son that declare His Deity and that no man could ever be called them unless that man was also God. He said and did only the things God can say and do. No man can make this claims which is why the Jewish leaders on numerous occasions trie to stone Him for blasphemy- you a mere man make yourself out to be YHWH/God.
The Uni's deny the biblical narrative regarding His claims at least the Jews recognized His claims to be God and rejected them. They are both in the same boat in the end denying Christ.
civic
Active Member
Only God forgives sin
Jesus said, “Your sins are forgiven,” before He died on the cross. The first is the paralyzed man who was brought to Jesus by friends and lowered through a roof to be healed. “When Jesus saw their faith, he said, ‘Friend, your sins are forgiven’” (Luke 5:20). The second person is the sinful woman who came to Jesus while He ate at Simon the Pharisee’s house. Seeing her reverence, the Lord contrasted her love with Simon’s lack of love. “Then Jesus said to her, ‘Your sins are forgiven’” (Luke 7:48). In both cases, Jesus’ words caused quite a stir among the hearers (Luke 5:21; 7:49).
conclusion: Only God forgives sin just as only God is worshiped and prayed to. Yey Jesus forgave sin, is prayed to and worshiped by His followers.
hope this helps !!!
Jesus said, “Your sins are forgiven,” before He died on the cross. The first is the paralyzed man who was brought to Jesus by friends and lowered through a roof to be healed. “When Jesus saw their faith, he said, ‘Friend, your sins are forgiven’” (Luke 5:20). The second person is the sinful woman who came to Jesus while He ate at Simon the Pharisee’s house. Seeing her reverence, the Lord contrasted her love with Simon’s lack of love. “Then Jesus said to her, ‘Your sins are forgiven’” (Luke 7:48). In both cases, Jesus’ words caused quite a stir among the hearers (Luke 5:21; 7:49).
conclusion: Only God forgives sin just as only God is worshiped and prayed to. Yey Jesus forgave sin, is prayed to and worshiped by His followers.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
God is indeed Plural from cover to cover in Scripture.
A. This one God is known in the OT as Jehovah or Yahweh (“the LORD”)
1. Texts where Jehovah is said to be elohim or el: Deut. 4:35, 39; Josh. 22:34; 1 Kings 8:60, 18:21, 39; Ps. 100:3, 118:27; etc.
2. Texts where the compound name “Jehovah God” (Yahweh Elohim) is used: Gen. 2:4-9, 15-22, 3:1, 8-9, 13-14, 21-23, 24:3; Ex. 9:30; Ps. 72:18, 84:11; Jonah 4:6
3. Only one Yahweh/Jehovah: Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29
4. The Bible never speaks of “the gods” as a group that includes Yahweh; nor is creation ever credited to “gods”; nor does it ever enjoin the worship of “gods”; nor does it speak in any other way that would imply that Yahweh was one of a group of deities. In fact the Bible explicitly rejects these types of statements (e.g., Deut. 5:6-10, 6:4-5, 13; Is. 43:10, 44:6-8, 24).
5. Conclusion: Jehovah is the only God, the only El or Elohim
B. This one God, the LORD, is one single divine being
1. The Bible always refers to the LORD or God in the third person singular (he, his, him), never as they, and speakers in the Bible addressing God/the LORD always do so in the second person singular (you singular). Citing texts is really unnecessary because there are far too many occurrences, but see, for example, Gen. 1:5, 10; Ex. 3:6, 12-14, 20:7; Deut. 32:39; 1 Kings 18:39; Ps. 23:2-3.
2. Whenever in the Bible the LORD or God speaks to human beings or other creatures, he always speaks of himself in the first person singular (I, and my/mine, not us/we and our/ours). Of the obviously numerous examples, see the especially famous examples in Ex. 3:14; Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6. He says “I am the LORD” or “I am the LORD your/their God” some 164 times in the OT (especially in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Isaiah, and Ezekiel).
3. This conclusion cannot be circumvented by saying that there is one “Godhead” consisting of a plurality of divine beings. The word “Godhead” is equivalent to the word “Godhood” (-head is an old English suffix meaning the state or status of something, as in maidenhead, the state of being a maiden or virgin). In the English Bible it is used to translate three closely related words: theion (“divine being,” Acts 17:29), theiotês (“divine nature,” Rom. 1:20), and theotês (“deity,” Col. 2:9). In none of these texts does “Godhead” refer to more than one divine being. The use of “Godhead” as a term for the Trinity is not found in the Bible; it is not inaccurate per se, but it must be understood as a term for a single divine being, not a group of gods.
C. However, the Bible never says that God is “one person.”
1. Heb. 1:3 KJV speaks of God’s “person,” but the word used here, hupostasis, is translated “substance” in Heb. 11:1 KJV; also in Heb. 1:3 “God” refers specifically to the Father.
2. Gal. 3:20 speaks of God as one party in the covenant between God and man, not as one person.
3. Job 13:8 KJV speaks of God’s “person,” but ironically the Hebrew literally means “his faces.”
D. The use of plural pronouns by God in Genesis 1-11
1. As already noted, the Bible always refers to God in the singular, and he always speaks of himself with singular pronouns (I, me, mine, my) when addressing creatures. These singular forms do not disprove that God exists as three “persons” as long as these persons are not separate beings.
2. At least three times God speaks of or to himself using plural pronouns (Gen. 1:26, 3:22, 11:7), and nontrinitarian interpretations cannot account for these occurrences.
a. A plural reference to God and the angels is not likely in these texts. In 1:26 “our image” is explained by the parallel in 1:27, “in God’s image.” In 3:22 “like one of us” refers back to 3:5, “like God.” In 11:7 “let us go down and there confuse their language” is explained immediately in 11:8-9, “So the LORD [Yahweh] scattered them abroad from there … The LORD confused the language of the whole earth.” Angels were evidently present when God created human beings (cf. Job 38:4-7), but the Bible never includes them as participants in creating human beings. Nor does the Bible ever speak of humans as being in the image of angels.
b. That the plural is in some way literal is evident from 3:22 (“like one of us”) and from 11:7 (“Come, let us go down”), which parallels the people’s statements “Come, let us …” (11:3, 4).
c. The “literary plural” (possibly, though never clearly, attested in Paul) is irrelevant to OT texts in which God is speaking, not writing.
d. The “plural of deliberation” or “cohortative plural” (as in “Let’s see now …”) with reference to a single person is apparently unattested in biblical writings, and clearly cannot explain the plural in Gen. 3:22 (“like one of us”).
e. The “plural of amplitude” or of “fullness” (which probably does explain the use of the plural form elohim in the singular sense of “God”) is irrelevant to the use of plural pronouns, and again cannot explain Gen. 3:22 and 11:7.
f. The “plural of majesty” (the royal “we”) is possibly attested in 1 Kings 12:9; 2 Chron. 10:9; more likely Ezra 4:18; but none of these is a certain use of that idiom; and again, it cannot explain Gen. 3:22 and 11:7.
3. There are two factors that may explain why these intradivine plural pronouns occur only in Genesis 1-11.
a. These plural pronouns express communication among the divine persons, rather than communication from God to human beings or angelic creatures.
b. It may be significant that the use of these plural forms is reported only in Genesis 1-11, prior to the revelations to Abraham, when the focus of biblical revelation became the fostering of a monotheistic faith. The history of the OT is a history of the struggle to establish Israel as a community committed to belief in one God. In that context it would have been confusing to have referred overtly to the three divine persons of the triune God. This also explains why there is no overt revelation of the three persons in the OT.
E. The uniqueness of God should prepare us for the possibility that the one divine Being exists uniquely as a plurality of persons
1. Only one God, thus unique: see I.A
2. None are even like God: see I.B
3. God cannot be fully comprehended: Is. 40:18, 25; 1 Cor. 8:2-3
4. God can be known only insofar as the Son reveals Him: Matt. 11:25-27; John 1:18
5. Analogical language needed to describe God: Ezek. 1:26-28; Rev. 1:13-16
6. God is transcendent, entirely distinct from and different than the universe, as the carpenter is distinct from the bench
a. Separate from the world: Is. 40:22; Acts 17:24
b. Contrasted with the world: Ps. 102:25-27; 1 John 2:15-17
c. Created the world: Gen. 1:1; Ps. 33:6, 102:25; Is. 42:5, 44:24; John 1:3; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 1:2, 11:3 R.Bowman
hope this helps !!!
This One God Is the Single Divine Being Known in the OT as Jehovah or Yahweh (“The LORD”)
A. This one God is known in the OT as Jehovah or Yahweh (“the LORD”)
1. Texts where Jehovah is said to be elohim or el: Deut. 4:35, 39; Josh. 22:34; 1 Kings 8:60, 18:21, 39; Ps. 100:3, 118:27; etc.
2. Texts where the compound name “Jehovah God” (Yahweh Elohim) is used: Gen. 2:4-9, 15-22, 3:1, 8-9, 13-14, 21-23, 24:3; Ex. 9:30; Ps. 72:18, 84:11; Jonah 4:6
3. Only one Yahweh/Jehovah: Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29
4. The Bible never speaks of “the gods” as a group that includes Yahweh; nor is creation ever credited to “gods”; nor does it ever enjoin the worship of “gods”; nor does it speak in any other way that would imply that Yahweh was one of a group of deities. In fact the Bible explicitly rejects these types of statements (e.g., Deut. 5:6-10, 6:4-5, 13; Is. 43:10, 44:6-8, 24).
5. Conclusion: Jehovah is the only God, the only El or Elohim
B. This one God, the LORD, is one single divine being
1. The Bible always refers to the LORD or God in the third person singular (he, his, him), never as they, and speakers in the Bible addressing God/the LORD always do so in the second person singular (you singular). Citing texts is really unnecessary because there are far too many occurrences, but see, for example, Gen. 1:5, 10; Ex. 3:6, 12-14, 20:7; Deut. 32:39; 1 Kings 18:39; Ps. 23:2-3.
2. Whenever in the Bible the LORD or God speaks to human beings or other creatures, he always speaks of himself in the first person singular (I, and my/mine, not us/we and our/ours). Of the obviously numerous examples, see the especially famous examples in Ex. 3:14; Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6. He says “I am the LORD” or “I am the LORD your/their God” some 164 times in the OT (especially in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Isaiah, and Ezekiel).
3. This conclusion cannot be circumvented by saying that there is one “Godhead” consisting of a plurality of divine beings. The word “Godhead” is equivalent to the word “Godhood” (-head is an old English suffix meaning the state or status of something, as in maidenhead, the state of being a maiden or virgin). In the English Bible it is used to translate three closely related words: theion (“divine being,” Acts 17:29), theiotês (“divine nature,” Rom. 1:20), and theotês (“deity,” Col. 2:9). In none of these texts does “Godhead” refer to more than one divine being. The use of “Godhead” as a term for the Trinity is not found in the Bible; it is not inaccurate per se, but it must be understood as a term for a single divine being, not a group of gods.
C. However, the Bible never says that God is “one person.”
1. Heb. 1:3 KJV speaks of God’s “person,” but the word used here, hupostasis, is translated “substance” in Heb. 11:1 KJV; also in Heb. 1:3 “God” refers specifically to the Father.
2. Gal. 3:20 speaks of God as one party in the covenant between God and man, not as one person.
3. Job 13:8 KJV speaks of God’s “person,” but ironically the Hebrew literally means “his faces.”
D. The use of plural pronouns by God in Genesis 1-11
1. As already noted, the Bible always refers to God in the singular, and he always speaks of himself with singular pronouns (I, me, mine, my) when addressing creatures. These singular forms do not disprove that God exists as three “persons” as long as these persons are not separate beings.
2. At least three times God speaks of or to himself using plural pronouns (Gen. 1:26, 3:22, 11:7), and nontrinitarian interpretations cannot account for these occurrences.
a. A plural reference to God and the angels is not likely in these texts. In 1:26 “our image” is explained by the parallel in 1:27, “in God’s image.” In 3:22 “like one of us” refers back to 3:5, “like God.” In 11:7 “let us go down and there confuse their language” is explained immediately in 11:8-9, “So the LORD [Yahweh] scattered them abroad from there … The LORD confused the language of the whole earth.” Angels were evidently present when God created human beings (cf. Job 38:4-7), but the Bible never includes them as participants in creating human beings. Nor does the Bible ever speak of humans as being in the image of angels.
b. That the plural is in some way literal is evident from 3:22 (“like one of us”) and from 11:7 (“Come, let us go down”), which parallels the people’s statements “Come, let us …” (11:3, 4).
c. The “literary plural” (possibly, though never clearly, attested in Paul) is irrelevant to OT texts in which God is speaking, not writing.
d. The “plural of deliberation” or “cohortative plural” (as in “Let’s see now …”) with reference to a single person is apparently unattested in biblical writings, and clearly cannot explain the plural in Gen. 3:22 (“like one of us”).
e. The “plural of amplitude” or of “fullness” (which probably does explain the use of the plural form elohim in the singular sense of “God”) is irrelevant to the use of plural pronouns, and again cannot explain Gen. 3:22 and 11:7.
f. The “plural of majesty” (the royal “we”) is possibly attested in 1 Kings 12:9; 2 Chron. 10:9; more likely Ezra 4:18; but none of these is a certain use of that idiom; and again, it cannot explain Gen. 3:22 and 11:7.
3. There are two factors that may explain why these intradivine plural pronouns occur only in Genesis 1-11.
a. These plural pronouns express communication among the divine persons, rather than communication from God to human beings or angelic creatures.
b. It may be significant that the use of these plural forms is reported only in Genesis 1-11, prior to the revelations to Abraham, when the focus of biblical revelation became the fostering of a monotheistic faith. The history of the OT is a history of the struggle to establish Israel as a community committed to belief in one God. In that context it would have been confusing to have referred overtly to the three divine persons of the triune God. This also explains why there is no overt revelation of the three persons in the OT.
E. The uniqueness of God should prepare us for the possibility that the one divine Being exists uniquely as a plurality of persons
1. Only one God, thus unique: see I.A
2. None are even like God: see I.B
3. God cannot be fully comprehended: Is. 40:18, 25; 1 Cor. 8:2-3
4. God can be known only insofar as the Son reveals Him: Matt. 11:25-27; John 1:18
5. Analogical language needed to describe God: Ezek. 1:26-28; Rev. 1:13-16
6. God is transcendent, entirely distinct from and different than the universe, as the carpenter is distinct from the bench
a. Separate from the world: Is. 40:22; Acts 17:24
b. Contrasted with the world: Ps. 102:25-27; 1 John 2:15-17
c. Created the world: Gen. 1:1; Ps. 33:6, 102:25; Is. 42:5, 44:24; John 1:3; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 1:2, 11:3 R.Bowman
hope this helps !!!
Runningman
Active Member
God is never called a they or them in all of Scripture, in accordance no one believed God is more than one person.
Next fallacy.
civic
Active Member
The Plural Maker Called God
The Bible starts early showing us that God is a plurality of Persons. For example as early as Genesis 1:26 we are confronted with a plural Maker called God. We read “Let US MAKE…in OUR IMAGE”. Most admit that the Father and Son were involved in the creation of Man, but the Holy Spirit participated as well, for nothing was created without the Holy Spirit’s participation. Detractors of the Trinity will admit this, even if they deny the Holy Spirit’s Personality. This is the one thing that distinguishes Jehovah, he is God by reason of his Creatorship. It is his claim to fame, his name and reputation.
In the New Testament Jesus referred to that same name and reputation when he said to baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). It was not a coincidence that the same three were involved in the creation of Man. But notice that it’s presented as a single Authority, a single name and reputation, and yet three distinct entities are listed. Have you ever wondered why Jesus didn’t say to baptize in the name of “The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, Gabriel, and John the Baptist”? Why did he stop with just those three? The very question itself should embarrass anyone who denies the Trinity, for it is obvious that that single name and reputation is of only those three, the same three who were involved in the “US MAKE” of Genesis 1:26, the plural Maker called God. Ultimately Jehovah is not just the Father, as some have assumed, but also includes the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ has become a stumbling stone and rock of offense for those who deny his true Deity, for they soon discover that they have a dilemma. If Jesus is GOD, is he true God or an untrue god? Is he really God or just a so-called god (1st Cor. 8:5)? It’s really an unhappy choice for them, for who wants an untrue god for a savior? Yet since they deny the former, they have no choice in the matter but to accept the latter. For them Jesus is an untrue god, just a so-called god. Yet the detractor protests, “But what about John 17:3, where Jesus calls his Father the only true God? This means that only the Father is true God”. Yet, as we shall see, they have become tricked by the mere sound and appearance of words mixed with some superficial thinking. What am I referring to?
The mistake comes in assuming that God can be held hostage to the finite premise that one being can only be a single Person in the Bible. It seems logical in our context, but all is not what it seems. Similar language to John 17:3 appears in Jude 4, where our best manuscripts read that Jesus is “our only Owner and Lord”. Here the same adjective “only” appears in the same grammatical position (attributive).
Yet immediately the detractors have a problem restricting the Owner and Lord to the one Person, Jesus Christ, for they know that Scripture elsewhere clearly identifies a Person other than Jesus as our “Owner and Lord”. How can Jesus be our only Owner and Lord if the Father is also our Owner and Lord? Or, how can the Father be our Owner and Lord if Jesus is our ONLY Owner and Lord? The same logic they apply to John 17:3 would deny that any other Person than Jesus Christ could be our “Owner and Lord” according to Jude 4. So when does only really mean only? Hence, Jude 4 has become a stumbling block to detractors of the Trinity because they cannot apply the same exegetical principles to it that they require in John 17:3. What then is the correct understanding of the language in John 17:3?
First we must observe that this is the night before the crucifixion, and Jesus is speaking from within his role as the mediator of the New Covenant. Earlier in his upper room discourse he had said that “no man comes to the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). Coming to the Father through the Son is the same thing as coming to God. We must understand that the Father operates through a mediator, whether it was the original creation, or the new creation. And that mediator at the time of John 17:3 had become a man like you and me.
So then, from this perspective he naturally calls his Father the only true God, but note what he's really saying here. What? That they might know you...and me. Imagine that. That we might know an ultimate creature and our eternal life depends on it? No way, friends! We need to know God to have life and that includes our knowing Jesus Christ, the one who had emptied himself to occupy a lower POSITION in order to pay the toll and be our bridge back to God. But looking at Jude 4 might help you to see how superficial the detractors are being in John 17:3. Only by understanding Jesus Christ as an ultimate and equal member of the eternal Godhead can we rightfully say that he's our ONLY Owner and Lord. See how easily the Trinity accommodates this? Without the Trinity the passage appears to be an outright contradiction to Scripture elsewhere.
You see, it's illogical to assume that to affirm the one is to automatically deny the other, and it’s a mistake to take something that is true of Christ’s transient identity and arbitrarily in your mind make that the be-all and end-all. As to his transient identity as a man, Jesus had a God (why wouldn’t he?), but as to his ultimate identity, all God’s angels must bow before him (Heb. 1:6) and we should honor/value the Son just as we honor/value the Father (John 5:23). Why? Because ultimately he is equal in nature with His Father, just as John had said a few verses earlier (John 5:18), Jesus confirmed a few verses later. They share equally with the Holy Spirit that name and reputation which is unique to Jehovah (Matt. 28:19).
Isaiah the prophet predicted the coming of the Messiah, and John the Baptist who would clear his path. In Isaiah 40:3 we read… “A voice is calling ‘Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.” Note it says “a highway for our God”. To show that this God is the true God, the NWT translates it “Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people”. So there is no doubt that the passage predicts the coming of our God, Jehovah. Yet it was Jesus who showed up, wasn’t it? Note the similarity between the expressions “our God” and “…my God” (Thomas, John 20:28). Same individual, wasn’t it? With this prediction in mind, note also Matt. 1:23… “Look, The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Immanuel,” which means, when translated, ‘With Us Is God’”.
So we see the above predictions and identifications of this individual as true God, Jehovah, and yet the detractors stubbornly refuse to believe. Their minds are closed on the matter and they say “Oh, he only represented Jehovah”, but even so, that would not deny his own identity as Jehovah, one of the members of the plural Maker called God in Gen. 1:26, right? One of these plural members became the Messiah, and of course came representing Jehovah. The embarrassing thing for detractors is that in the above predictions he’s so often called LORD, GOD, and JEHOVAH, and lamentably for them, they cannot deny that he was included in the plural Maker of Gen. 1:26. Yet there was nothing untrue about the God in that context, was there? No there was not, but the Son was included, for that Maker was God, and that Maker was a plurality of Persons.
The Bible starts early showing us that God is a plurality of Persons. For example as early as Genesis 1:26 we are confronted with a plural Maker called God. We read “Let US MAKE…in OUR IMAGE”. Most admit that the Father and Son were involved in the creation of Man, but the Holy Spirit participated as well, for nothing was created without the Holy Spirit’s participation. Detractors of the Trinity will admit this, even if they deny the Holy Spirit’s Personality. This is the one thing that distinguishes Jehovah, he is God by reason of his Creatorship. It is his claim to fame, his name and reputation.
In the New Testament Jesus referred to that same name and reputation when he said to baptize “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). It was not a coincidence that the same three were involved in the creation of Man. But notice that it’s presented as a single Authority, a single name and reputation, and yet three distinct entities are listed. Have you ever wondered why Jesus didn’t say to baptize in the name of “The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, Gabriel, and John the Baptist”? Why did he stop with just those three? The very question itself should embarrass anyone who denies the Trinity, for it is obvious that that single name and reputation is of only those three, the same three who were involved in the “US MAKE” of Genesis 1:26, the plural Maker called God. Ultimately Jehovah is not just the Father, as some have assumed, but also includes the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Jesus Christ has become a stumbling stone and rock of offense for those who deny his true Deity, for they soon discover that they have a dilemma. If Jesus is GOD, is he true God or an untrue god? Is he really God or just a so-called god (1st Cor. 8:5)? It’s really an unhappy choice for them, for who wants an untrue god for a savior? Yet since they deny the former, they have no choice in the matter but to accept the latter. For them Jesus is an untrue god, just a so-called god. Yet the detractor protests, “But what about John 17:3, where Jesus calls his Father the only true God? This means that only the Father is true God”. Yet, as we shall see, they have become tricked by the mere sound and appearance of words mixed with some superficial thinking. What am I referring to?
The mistake comes in assuming that God can be held hostage to the finite premise that one being can only be a single Person in the Bible. It seems logical in our context, but all is not what it seems. Similar language to John 17:3 appears in Jude 4, where our best manuscripts read that Jesus is “our only Owner and Lord”. Here the same adjective “only” appears in the same grammatical position (attributive).
Yet immediately the detractors have a problem restricting the Owner and Lord to the one Person, Jesus Christ, for they know that Scripture elsewhere clearly identifies a Person other than Jesus as our “Owner and Lord”. How can Jesus be our only Owner and Lord if the Father is also our Owner and Lord? Or, how can the Father be our Owner and Lord if Jesus is our ONLY Owner and Lord? The same logic they apply to John 17:3 would deny that any other Person than Jesus Christ could be our “Owner and Lord” according to Jude 4. So when does only really mean only? Hence, Jude 4 has become a stumbling block to detractors of the Trinity because they cannot apply the same exegetical principles to it that they require in John 17:3. What then is the correct understanding of the language in John 17:3?
First we must observe that this is the night before the crucifixion, and Jesus is speaking from within his role as the mediator of the New Covenant. Earlier in his upper room discourse he had said that “no man comes to the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). Coming to the Father through the Son is the same thing as coming to God. We must understand that the Father operates through a mediator, whether it was the original creation, or the new creation. And that mediator at the time of John 17:3 had become a man like you and me.
So then, from this perspective he naturally calls his Father the only true God, but note what he's really saying here. What? That they might know you...and me. Imagine that. That we might know an ultimate creature and our eternal life depends on it? No way, friends! We need to know God to have life and that includes our knowing Jesus Christ, the one who had emptied himself to occupy a lower POSITION in order to pay the toll and be our bridge back to God. But looking at Jude 4 might help you to see how superficial the detractors are being in John 17:3. Only by understanding Jesus Christ as an ultimate and equal member of the eternal Godhead can we rightfully say that he's our ONLY Owner and Lord. See how easily the Trinity accommodates this? Without the Trinity the passage appears to be an outright contradiction to Scripture elsewhere.
You see, it's illogical to assume that to affirm the one is to automatically deny the other, and it’s a mistake to take something that is true of Christ’s transient identity and arbitrarily in your mind make that the be-all and end-all. As to his transient identity as a man, Jesus had a God (why wouldn’t he?), but as to his ultimate identity, all God’s angels must bow before him (Heb. 1:6) and we should honor/value the Son just as we honor/value the Father (John 5:23). Why? Because ultimately he is equal in nature with His Father, just as John had said a few verses earlier (John 5:18), Jesus confirmed a few verses later. They share equally with the Holy Spirit that name and reputation which is unique to Jehovah (Matt. 28:19).
Isaiah the prophet predicted the coming of the Messiah, and John the Baptist who would clear his path. In Isaiah 40:3 we read… “A voice is calling ‘Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.” Note it says “a highway for our God”. To show that this God is the true God, the NWT translates it “Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people”. So there is no doubt that the passage predicts the coming of our God, Jehovah. Yet it was Jesus who showed up, wasn’t it? Note the similarity between the expressions “our God” and “…my God” (Thomas, John 20:28). Same individual, wasn’t it? With this prediction in mind, note also Matt. 1:23… “Look, The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Immanuel,” which means, when translated, ‘With Us Is God’”.
So we see the above predictions and identifications of this individual as true God, Jehovah, and yet the detractors stubbornly refuse to believe. Their minds are closed on the matter and they say “Oh, he only represented Jehovah”, but even so, that would not deny his own identity as Jehovah, one of the members of the plural Maker called God in Gen. 1:26, right? One of these plural members became the Messiah, and of course came representing Jehovah. The embarrassing thing for detractors is that in the above predictions he’s so often called LORD, GOD, and JEHOVAH, and lamentably for them, they cannot deny that he was included in the plural Maker of Gen. 1:26. Yet there was nothing untrue about the God in that context, was there? No there was not, but the Son was included, for that Maker was God, and that Maker was a plurality of Persons.
