All Claims of The Son's Deity

[amazing grace]

if the Father is "LORD" ... ok, scripture, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

notice the "LORD", is a. ALONE, and b. BY HIMSELF. and alone means "having no one else present:" now this, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

is this the same one person who MADE ALL THINGS. YES, or No.

101G.

Isaiah 44:24 . . . I am the LORD (Yahweh) that makes all things . . . alone . . . by myself . . . John 1:3 all things were made by the word and without the word was not anything made that was made.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth . . . And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. . . . And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” . . . And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so., etc.
Yes, the LORD (Yahweh) through His spoken word, spoke all things into being with His powerful creative speech.

 

[Victoria]

I am. I guess. Thank you for asking love.

but to really be okay will only be when Christ returns
and gets us out of here.

100% agree
Paul says our home is in the heavens

 

[Victoria]

actually, I do not even know what unitarian is.


I would say that electricity is definitely one aspect by which to refer to our Eden mother the Holy Spirit.... who is our Comforter, together with Christ.

Curious as to where you get the teaching that the Holy Spirit is feminine, Eden mother?
It sounds like paganism. They believe in feminine spirits/goddesses.

 

[Victoria]

@Grace ambassador

 

[mikesw]

Séances are a form of necromancy. Mocking it? I don't think so. It has to be pointed out that it's an abomination to God. Many came out of the New Age, not knowing the occult was Satanic, & got saved. So it's a very big deal b/c many believe they're really doing the work of God. You should give a listen to their testimonies.

I shared the probable meaning of his statement. However, you are seeking to put it in bad light instead of as a brother in Christ.

Spiritism Forbidden​

"When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee." Deuteronomy 18:9-12

Duh. Christians are aware of that. That would be why he said this seance failed and mocked it as the creatures not showing up.

I wasn't born into, or brought up in a religious environment. When I got saved, I had no bias, just a desire for the truth. Cherry picking verses & taking them out of context is what leads to false doctrines.

Well. It depends on whether you just read scripture never hearing some particular view. I'm glad you want to avoid cherry picking of verses. Sometimes it might be hard to avoid people sharing cherry picked verses like has been done of letters and details of arguments about Westcott and Hord.

I chose to go w/ the Byzantine Text after doing side by side comparisons w/ the Alexandrian Text, & learning which set of manuscripts date straight back to the source. I'm just not comfortable going w/ a set of manuscripts that deny Christ's deity, make Him out as a liar, & a sinner. So yes, there's a reason why people say the Bible has errors/contradictions in it.

You do not like John 1:18 in the ancient Greek translated as "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known" that shows the divinity of Christ explicitly?

"

What criticisms on the Byzantine Text do you agree w/ Westcott & Hort on?

They are interested just in the more authentic text without niceties added later on. I think it was idealism about scripture that drove then into their research.
I find both the Textus Receptus and the corrected Greek Text as reasonable enough for scripture reading. It is not like one lead a person astray

 

[mikesw]

Nope I am a full blown Biblical Unitarian! What threw me off was the statement 'something like electricity that is inside of people.' that's what I had never heard before.

I understand the Holy Spirit is God, aka God's Spirit, aka the Spirit of God.

Then we have the gift of holy spirit, = the promise of the Father. . And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high. = And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. = Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.' Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those wo believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. = Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the holy spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. = And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit. . . .The Comforter, the Helper is the indwelling gift of holy spirit,. (figurative, i.e. personification)

Exactly. The Comforter that Jesus sent of the Triune God. Ouch that you call God a personification. It is horrific that anything the Unitarians want to dismiss of God leads them to call it a personification.

 

[e v e]

Curious as to where you get the teaching that the Holy Spirit is feminine, Eden mother?
It sounds like paganism. They believe in feminine spirits/goddesses.

As a former ancients prof I can state females *usually are constructs and are not real beings in 'pagan' ancient texts, i.e., greek or vedic texts. Plato and his other interlocutors, such as plotinus believed in the "One".

For example, hathor and ra are cosmological Regions, not beings. I suppose now people read ancient texts and assume they are polytheistic out of hand without further study. Plotinus, a follower of Plato, understood the pagan One as having 3 hypostases or emanations. True like in all religious sects there is weird superstition. Example i have an evangelical sister, a vanilla protestant one too. Both take it to be a 'sign' when cardinals appear. lol. I suppose some ancient greeks anthropomorphized some construct gods or regions or animals into beings or personalities.

As for our sweet mother, i've posted here about it... just search here holy spirit posts by eve and also trinity posts, ruach posts etc. I never fully explained it here as it seemed to bug people that God patterned souls (in His image) and that we are not creatures but soon to be restored to eden as His sons and daughters...

wrong versions: catholic mary, mormon stuff, greek or other newage stuff. Not my thing. pagan is a late term ... and not how greeks or other mystery babylon=satanic religions and groups referred to themselves...

In further note, not all but a lot of ancient texts' contents take place in the other reality, not this earth... including the OT.

 

[e v e]

Curious as to where you get the teaching that the Holy Spirit is feminine, Eden mother?
It sounds like paganism. They believe in feminine spirits/goddesses.

Here the nature is harsh, and everything dies. thats its good and evil tree 'signature.' It is death... babylon.

All of God's nature (eden nature), is love , does not die...

Everything made by God bears His signature. Christ and His spirit are His hands... (irenaeus, prophets.)

 

[Victoria]

I shared the probable meaning of his statement. However, you are seeking to put it in bad light instead of as a brother in Christ.

I don't take it as putting it in a bad light given they were in the Ghostly Guild & Hermes Club. It doesn't make them look good, is what I'm saying. God wants us to use discernment.

Duh. Christians are aware of that. That would be why he said this seance failed and mocked it as the creatures not showing up.

As Godly men, they should've known that's contacting devils.

Well. It depends on whether you just read scripture never hearing some particular view. I'm glad you want to avoid cherry picking of verses. Sometimes it might be hard to avoid people sharing cherry picked verses like has been done of letters and details of arguments about Westcott and Hord.

I read the scriptures for myself & allow God to confirm whether or not a teaching lines up w/ His Word. I was even blessed enough to learn from a non-denominational pastor that often says, "You can decide for yourself", & would always encourage us to study for ourselves. What you're assuming is that I'm following man, & not God. If Jesus Christ said His chosen vessel to bear His name before the Gentiles is the apostle Paul, then that's how I know who He wants me to follow Him through.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me
receiveth him that sent me." John 13:20

Jesus Christ told us who His audience was...

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24

Who did Jesus send the twelve to? & Paul reiterates this...

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:5-6

"Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:" Romans 15:8

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:" Romans 11:13
(Galatians 2:8; 1 Timothy 2:7; 2 Timothy 1:11)

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:25

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began," Romans 16:25

The problem is, no one ever listens to Jesus. Unbelieving Israel never took Him seriously, & the Gentiles are no better. If you don't know the difference between Peter's ministry & Paul's ministry, you end up w/ contradictions! We can't be under both the law & under grace simultaneously. Ephesians 2:8-9 & James 2:24; 6 can't both be true at the same time. Who is the apostle speaking? Who is their audience? Jesus made that clear.

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,"
1 Peter 1:1

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." James 1:1

"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."
Galatians 2:9

You do not like John 1:18 in the ancient Greek translated as "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known" that shows the divinity of Christ explicitly?

"
They are interested just in the more authentic text without niceties added later on. I think it was idealism about scripture that drove then into their research.

I didn't say all verses deny His deity, there are others omitted or changed [two examples: 1 John 5:7; 1 Timothy 3:16].

Okay, so it's more a preference then rather than criticism?

 

[Victoria]

Here the nature is harsh, and everything dies. thats its good and evil tree 'signature.' It is death... babylon.

All of God's nature (eden nature), is love , does not die...

Everything made by God bears His signature. Christ and His spirit are His hands... (irenaeus, prophets.)

Hmm, I've never heard this type of belief before. I know Gnostic's believe the material is evil, the spirit is good.
What you've described kinda sounds similar.

I'm familiar w/ Irenaeus. He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was [Polycarp] a disciple of the apostle John.

 

[e v e]

Hmm, I've never heard this type of belief before. I know Gnostic's believe the material is evil, the spirit is good.
What you've described kinda sounds similar.

I'm familiar w/ Irenaeus. He was a disciple of Polycarp, who was [Polycarp] a disciple of the apostle John.

it's not at all similar ... but i can see why
that could be a reaction...

 

[e v e]

it's not at all similar ... but i can see why
that could be a reaction...

i know a gnostic. serious enmity, and similar problem I have had with mormon true blues, jw .
they are spelled and hopefully during trib some of yhem get a chance to understand when the 144k, the two witnesses (restored sons and daughters), visit them with Christ.. also some others, like evangelicals might get finally. who knows.

i know why for me their view id a fail but its not
for the apparent reasons ..

anyway.

 

[mikesw]

I don't take it as putting it in a bad light given they were in the Ghostly Guild & Hermes Club. It doesn't make them look good, is what I'm saying. God wants us to use discernment.

Did you review the reason they did this? We already saw the mockery of the seance in saying the creatures did not show up. Also, have you examined the Christian doctrines they held and their dedication to Christ? Or are you just relying on the misuse of half-quotations shared on many websites?

As Godly men, they should've known that's contacting devils.

Westcott is not shown as participating in a seance. Hort had this mockery of the event. Houdini had been one who went to seances to expose the trickery.

I read the scriptures for myself & allow God to confirm whether or not a teaching lines up w/ His Word. I was even blessed enough to learn from a non-denominational pastor that often says, "You can decide for yourself", & would always encourage us to study for ourselves. What you're assuming is that I'm following man, & not God. If Jesus Christ said His chosen vessel to bear His name before the Gentiles is the apostle Paul, then that's how I know who He wants me to follow Him through.

I am asking whether you have studied these men beyond the abuse of quotes from sources on Westcott and Hort. So far it seems that KJV-only people will make ad hominem arguments just because they do not like the Nestle-Aland Greek text.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me
receiveth him that sent me." John 13:20

Jesus Christ told us who His audience was...

But you are not supposed to judge your brother or sister in Christ on false accusations.

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24

Who did Jesus send the twelve to? & Paul reiterates this...

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 10:5-6

Indeed that was Jesus as Prophet to Israel before the fall of the Temple. Of course we are not of the house of Israel to whom he went.

"Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:" Romans 15:8

Right. Paul wanted the gentiles to accept Jews back into fellowship

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:" Romans 11:13
(Galatians 2:8; 1 Timothy 2:7; 2 Timothy 1:11)

Right. Paul wanted the gentiles to accept Jews back into fellowship

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:25

Sure. Paul did not appreciate the gentiles' rejection of jews from fellowship.

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began," Romans 16:25

You have a different idea of mystery beyond Paul just noting that the inclusion of gentiles on equal ground through Christ was not clearly shown in the OT.

The problem is, no one ever listens to Jesus. Unbelieving Israel never took Him seriously, & the Gentiles are no better. If you don't know the difference between Peter's ministry & Paul's ministry, you end up w/ contradictions! We can't be under both the law & under grace simultaneously. Ephesians 2:8-9 & James 2:24; 6 can't both be true at the same time. Who is the apostle speaking? Who is their audience? Jesus made that clear.

This is true that grace was what came after the law era. I'm not sure how that relates here

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,"
1 Peter 1:1

"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." James 1:1

"And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."
Galatians 2:9

I didn't say all verses deny His deity, there are others omitted or changed [two examples: 1 John 5:7; 1 Timothy 3:16].

So you are saying that clear verses of Jesus's divinity is not enough to make his divinity clear?

Okay, so it's more a preference then rather than criticism?

A task you could do on your own is go to one of the websites where the judges post quotes (and misquotes) of Westcott and Hort. Examine the view posted by the judges and see which of their views may have a kinder and more realistic sense behind the quoted text than those judges give it.
I showed you that point about the seance. Also, the wavering faith can be viewed quite normally when faced with the onslaught of German theologians that often had to be studied in theology. It is those challenges to faith that also makes a pastor stronger who is able to overcome those negative views and even defend the church against those. This also does not mean he was rejecting sound bible teaching but in the other sense it is possible his faith had not yet been well-established yet.

 

[Victoria]

Did you review the reason they did this? We already saw the mockery of the seance in saying the creatures did not show up. Also, have you examined the Christian doctrines they held and their dedication to Christ? Or are you just relying on the misuse of half-quotations shared on many websites?

It's more about not understanding what was so seriously wrong w/ the Majority Text to begin w/, rather than two men feeling they needed to revise it. The Textus Receptus beared so much fruit following the Dark Ages. People were finally able to hold an English Bible in their own hands, come to Christ Jesus, & get saved by grace through faith. What was the problem?

Westcott is not shown as participating in a seance. Hort had this mockery of the event. Houdini had been one who went to seances to expose the trickery.

The main point is the set of manuscripts. I've heard many textual critics say we don't have the inspired, preserved, infallible Word of God. That's the main issue. I do not agree b/c that would make God out to be a liar. The Bible also warns of those who would try to corrupt His Word, even to make merchandise out of us. It's up to the believer to use discernment.

I am asking whether you have studied these men beyond the abuse of quotes from sources on Westcott and Hort. So far it seems that KJV-only people will make ad hominem arguments just because they do not like the Nestle-Aland Greek text.

I've been labeled KJV-Only, as if that were to mean I exalt a particular translation. There are extremists out there, yes, & you're assuming that I exalt a translation above God Himself. No, I do not agree that the KJB translation exceeds the copies of the Hebrew, & Greek, like the Ruckmanites believe.

But you are not supposed to judge your brother or sister in Christ on false accusations.

Using discernment, not judging. I don't hold anything personally against them.

Indeed that was Jesus as Prophet to Israel before the fall of the Temple. Of course we are not of the house of Israel to whom he went.

As the Christ, the Son of God, & their future Bridegroom, as well as a Prophet.

Right. Paul wanted the gentiles to accept Jews back into fellowship

Right. Paul wanted the gentiles to accept Jews back into fellowship

Sure. Paul did not appreciate the gentiles' rejection of jews from fellowship.

You have a different idea of mystery beyond Paul just noting that the inclusion of gentiles on equal ground through Christ was not clearly shown in the OT.

The Gentiles, as well as the Jews saved today during the dispensation of the grace of God... have a different eternal destiny... in the heavens

"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God," Ephesians 3:9

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."
1 Corinthians 2:7-8

Once you understand this, you'll understand why Satan hates Paul so much

This is true that grace was what came after the law era. I'm not sure how that relates here

It means that Peter, James, & John are Israel's apostles... not ours.

Promise of Restoration
Ezekiel 11:16-20; Amos 9:11-15 KJB

Israel to Be Renewed for "His" Name's Sake [NOT Theirs]
Ezekiel 36:22-28 KJB

A New Covenant
Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-12 KJB

New Heavens and a New Earth
Isaiah 65:17-25; 2 Peter 3:10-16; Revelation 21 KJB

So you are saying that clear verses of Jesus's divinity is not enough to make his divinity clear?

It's enough to make His deity clear, sure. The attacks in other areas is what I'm uncomfortable w/.
1 John 5:7, as one example, is a major error if omitted.

 

[Capbook]

Well let's look at number 1...
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
The verse does not say no man cometh unto me, but by me.

Can someone have that life outside Jesus?
Did Jesus didn't say "I am the life?"(John 14:6)

Here's number 2...
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
The verse does not say God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in Him.

Yes, the Father said that eternal life is in His Son.(1John 5:11)
Do the Father's words will expire 9 verses onward?

Number 4...
And we know that the Son of God is come, even in his Son Jesus Christ.
The verse does not say that God is come, even in Him God.

You did not answer the question honestly.
Now, Who is the eternal life in 1John 5:20.
Just from a fellow Christian advise, "don't make the Father lie" will you?

 

[amazing grace]

Exactly. The Comforter that Jesus sent of the Triune God. Ouch that you call God a personification. It is horrific that anything the Unitarians want to dismiss of God leads them to call it a personification.

Ouch, that you can't understand literary figures of speech! It's too bad that of all the verses I posted relating the Holy Spirit, aka God, with the promise of the Father, with the gift given to all who believe in the Messiah you have trouble with a figure of speech!

I am not dismissing THE Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God nor am I dismissing the gift of holy spirit AT ALL!
We are anointed with holy spirit and with power - God in Christ dwell in us via this wonderful gift that is called the Comforter . . . the reason it is called a personification because it is not an actual person = That's why the Comforter is a personification - something being described as if it's a person, i.e. it is given human attributes. It is the power of God working within believers to walk as Christ and live a life acceptable and pleasing.

If the holy spirit, the Comforter is a person - when Jesus was baptized and the holy spirit "like as a dove" (simile) came to rest upon him - was that a person remaining upon him or an actual dove remaining on him? Did he walk around with a dove on him? Do we walk around with an extra person in us? Jesus didn't pour a person called the Comforter in you!

 

[Peterlag]

Did Jesus didn't say "I am the life?"(John 14:6)

You did not answer the question honestly.
Now, Who is the eternal life in 1John 5:20.
Just from a fellow Christian advise, "don't make the Father lie" will you

Can someone have that life outside Jesus?
Yes Jesus can have that life.

Now, Who is the eternal life in 1John 5:20.
Jesus and God...
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

 

[Peterlag]

The Bible teaches that God is the “head” of Christ...

“But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God” (1 Corinthians 11:3). The Trinitarian explanation of this verse is that God was the head of Christ only while he was on the earth, but the Bible never says that. In fact, the Bible shows us the opposite: God is still the head of Christ and directing him even after he ascended into heaven. God can be seen to be greater than the Messiah in Psalm 2 when God’s Messiah is called “his anointed” and God says “I have set my Kingon Zion, my holy hill."

The Messiah is not being shown to be a co-equal ruler with God, but God’s under-ruler. God says He fathered the Messiah: “You are my Son; today I have begotten you." It's clear the Messiah was begotten at a specific time in history and that means he's not “eternally begotten” even if commentators argue about which day “today” refers to.

Peter’s teaching to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost says “God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36). God must have greater authority than Jesus in order to make him the "Lord." Christ would have already been the “Lord” if he was God—in which case God would not need to “make” him the "Lord."