All Claims of The Son's Deity

[mikesw]

When two different persons speak to one another it means they aren't the same person. You act as if men, angels, and God can't be in the same location or vacinity at the same time. There is nothing that clearly states that the angel of the Lord is YHWH Himself. It's also nonsensical that the LORD would be His own messenger because being a messenger implies giving messages for someone else. Someone who is speaking on their own behalf is not a messenger.

Also, Jesus and the angel of the Lord are in the same context yet not the same person. So we can rule out Jesus being the angel of the Lord.

Matthew 28:2​

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.​

​

Luke 22:43​

"And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him."​

This shows you do not know the scripture showing where both persons talking have been identified as YHWH. This suggests you do not recognize how God has interacted with people on earth. You are right when you note there must be different persons speaking. This is what the Trinitarian notes when identifying two or more persons of the Godhead yet being singly as God. It does not have to match your experience as a human since this God is not made in man's image. It would help if you made an argument that actually spoke against the Trinitarian concepts.
In summary you have noted:
* that a single person must have another person to have a chat so there must be multiple persons in the Godhead
* that the multiple persons of the Godhead is different from the human experience, which should not be a surprise
* that there are multiple persons involved in these instances that could mistakenly miss that this is multiple persons of the Godhead

 

[Runningman]

This shows you do not know the scripture showing where both persons talking have been identified as YHWH. This suggests you do not recognize how God has interacted with people on earth. You are right when you note there must be different persons speaking. This is what the Trinitarian notes when identifying two or more persons of the Godhead yet being singly as God. It does not have to match your experience as a human since this God is not made in man's image. It would help if you made an argument that actually spoke against the Trinitarian concepts.
In summary you have noted:
* that a single person must have another person to have a chat so there must be multiple persons in the Godhead
* that the multiple persons of the Godhead is different from the human experience, which should not be a surprise
* that there are multiple persons involved in these instances that could mistakenly miss that this is multiple persons of the Godhead

The angel of the Lord cannot be a member of an alleged "Trinitarian Godhead." The Holy Spirit isn't even an option and neither is Jesus. You guys are way overthinking this because you need theophanies and and you need Jesus to pre-exist to bolster your religion. The LORD and the angel of the LORD are not members of a Godhead speaking to one another because God never told any angels that He became their Father or to sit at His right hand. Don't overthink it. The angel is exactly how it sounds, just a messenger. Any time the angel said something it means the angel was giving a message. That's it.

Hebrews 1
4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs.
5For to which of the angels did God ever say:
“You are My Son;
today I have become Your Father”?

Hebrews 1
13Yet to which of the angels did God ever say:
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet"?

 

[mikesw]

The angel of the Lord cannot be a member of an alleged "Trinitarian Godhead." The Holy Spirit isn't even an option and neither is Jesus. You guys are way overthinking this because you need theophanies and and you need Jesus to pre-exist to bolster your religion. The LORD and the angel of the LORD are not members of a Godhead speaking to one another because God never told any angels that He became their Father or to sit at His right hand. Don't overthink it. The angel is exactly how it sounds, just a messenger. Any time the angel said something it means the angel was giving a message. That's it.

Hebrews 1
4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs.
5For to which of the angels did God ever say:
“You are My Son;
today I have become Your Father”?

Hebrews 1
13Yet to which of the angels did God ever say:
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet"?

So you want to disregard the Angel of the Lord being addressed as Yahweh speaking because you find the general idea
of angels as lower than God? Verse 8 identifies Christ's divinity. Jesus in the physical sense is higher than angels because he is divine. I'm not sure where your confusion begins. And in verse 10 he has to pre-exist to have creation as the works of his hands.

It gets so weird that you use a passage that speaks of his pre-existence all just to deny his pre-existence. You keep on testifying to the Triune essence of God.

 

[Runningman]

So you want to disregard the Angel of the Lord being addressed as Yahweh speaking because you find the general idea
of angels as lower than God? Verse 8 identifies Christ's divinity. Jesus in the physical sense is higher than angels because he is divine. I'm not sure where your confusion begins. And in verse 10 he has to pre-exist to have creation as the works of his hands.

It gets so weird that you use a passage that speaks of his pre-existence all just to deny his pre-existence. You keep on testifying to the Triune essence of God.

You must have a secret decoder ring that shows all of these things to you. I can't find any of it in the Christian Bible. So, plainly, you believe God is an angel? Yet Jesus is not an angel?

 

[mikesw]

You must have a secret decoder ring that shows all of these things to you. I can't find any of it in the Christian Bible. So, plainly, you believe God is an angel? Yet Jesus is not an angel?

I suppose we could say the Holy Spirit, which resides in Christians, affirms the details of scripture. But I'm not clear how you are interpreting the discussion. You remain confused.
The Angel of God is often speaks and later a person affirms they were told this message by Yahweh. I suppose also you forget that angel means messenger; that can apply to any person conveying a message. So this can be the Christ, as part of the Godhead, who acts as the messenger just as John 1 shows him as the message. Thus Jesus is of the Godhead. He is a messenger. He also is the message of God that came among the Jews.
It is saddening that you wish to speak against the testimony of Christ. I probably should not have shared this much since you just wish to trample on the message of Christ. Also, in your hyper-literalist reading of scripture, you are unable to recognize the various applications of words can have, such as the word angel.

Again, you avoided the clearer examples of the Angel of the Lord being said to be Yahweh. This was found among Jewish perception as the Two Powers in Heaven -- not just Christians.

 

[Runningman]

I suppose we could say the Holy Spirit, which resides in Christians, affirms the details of scripture. But I'm not clear how you are interpreting the discussion. You remain confused.
The Angel of God is often speaks and later a person affirms they were told this message by Yahweh. I suppose also you forget that angel means messenger; that can apply to any person conveying a message. So this can be the Christ, as part of the Godhead, who acts as the messenger just as John 1 shows him as the message. Thus Jesus is of the Godhead. He is a messenger. He also is the message of God that came among the Jews.
It is saddening that you wish to speak against the testimony of Christ. I probably should not have shared this much since you just wish to trample on the message of Christ. Also, in your hyper-literalist reading of scripture, you are unable to recognize the various applications of words can have, such as the word angel.

Again, you avoided the clearer examples of the Angel of the Lord being said to be Yahweh. This was found among Jewish perception as the Two Powers in Heaven -- not just Christians.

It's not a convincing argument that God is the same singular person as someone else He speaks with or His own messenger. That doesn't even make any sense. Where is God ever called a they or them? My Bible says God is a He and calls angel worship a sin.

Revelation 19
10So I fell at his feet to worship him. But he told me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who rely on the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

 

[mikesw]

It's not a convincing argument that God is the same singular person as someone else He speaks with or His own messenger. That doesn't even make any sense. Where is God ever called a they or them? My Bible says God is a He and calls angel worship a sin.

You think only in anthropomorphic terms of God. You do not recognize even the passages that reveal the multiple persons, as even found among Jews, as shared in the Two Powers of Heaven by Alan Segal. Nor do the Trinitarians say God is speaking to "the same singular person." That would be silly. Trinitarians recognize the multiple persons in the Godhead; So, you do not even know what you are trying to refute. Not a surprise here.
I'm sorry I cannot help you get over your confusion about the essence of God.

Revelation 19
10So I fell at his feet to worship him. But he told me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who rely on the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Oops. You fallen into hyper-literalistism in making "angel" mean only one sense -- namely of a heavenly being distinct from God that interacts with people. That inability to differentiate meaning creates a big handicap when trying to understand even basic scriptures, let alone passages about God.
That leads you to quote a passage unrelated to our discussion.

 

[Runningman]

You think only in anthropomorphic terms of God. You do not recognize even the passages that reveal the multiple persons, as even found among Jews, as shared in the Two Powers of Heaven by Alan Segal. Nor do the Trinitarians say God is speaking to "the same singular person." That would be silly. Trinitarians recognize the multiple persons in the Godhead; So, you do not even know what you are trying to refute. Not a surprise here.
I'm sorry I cannot help you get over your confusion about the essence of God.

Oops. You fallen into hyper-literalistism in making "angel" mean only one sense -- namely of a heavenly being distinct from God that interacts with people. That inability to differentiate meaning creates a big handicap when trying to understand even basic scriptures, let alone passages about God.
That leads you to quote a passage unrelated to our discussion.

Jews and Christrians are aggressively and strictly monotheistc and always have been. There is no mention of the trinity in orthodox Judeo-Christian writings. There are some fringe groups that idenify as Jews or Christians, who sometimes believe in a trinity or multi-person god, but they are sectarian and not considered to be in alignment with mainstream Judaism or Christianity.

I recommend you read some history. The trinity is a post-Christian development and wasn't offically sorted out until the 4th century councils. Trinitarianism wasn't considered the official religion of the Catholic church by around the mid 4th century, but they didn't settle on making the "Holy Spirit" the 3rd member of their godhead until the late 4th century. Eventually, there was an offshoot from the Catholics called the Protestants in the 17th century.

As far as words not meaning what they do, you are not entitled to create new definitions and concepts on the fly when the Bible doesn't help you. Your ignorance seems practicially invincible to any reason. The Bible describes God as a singular person with signular pronouns, has Him speaking to others who are His sons or messengers, is described as creating alone, and none of that is good enough for you. You have to say a singular person God is not singular, that when God speaks to others He is still speaking to Himself, and that creating alone means He created together with others. I would hate to be in your shoes trying to sell that snake oil to sane and rational people. Is it embarassing?

 

[mikesw]

Jews and Christrians are aggressively and strictly monotheistc and always have been. There is no mention of the trinity in orthodox Judeo-Christian writings. There are some fringe groups that idenify as Jews or Christians, who sometimes believe in a trinity or multi-person god, but they are sectarian and not considered to be in alignment with mainstream Judaism or Christianity.

I recommend you read some history. The trinity is a post-Christian development and wasn't offically sorted out until the 4th century councils. Trinitarianism wasn't considered the official religion of the Catholic church by around the mid 4th century, but they didn't settle on making the "Holy Spirit" the 3rd member of their godhead until the late 4th century. Eventually, there was an offshoot from the Catholics called the Protestants in the 17th century.

As far as words not meaning what they do, you are not entitled to create new definitions and concepts on the fly when the Bible doesn't help you. Your ignorance seems practicially invincible to any reason. The Bible describes God as a singular person with signular pronouns, has Him speaking to others who are His sons or messengers, is described as creating alone, and none of that is good enough for you. You have to say a singular person God is not singular, that when God speaks to others He is still speaking to Himself, and that creating alone means He created together with others. I would hate to be in your shoes trying to sell that snake oil to sane and rational people. Is it embarassing?

Do you not know that Jews and Christians have remained monotheist even when recognizing the attributes of God in multiple persons?

Do you not know that Christians recognized the divinity of Christ from the first century onward -- even where Thomas states that upon seeing Jesus after his resurrection?

Do you know realize the Trinitarian doctrine is to recognize that Jesus is not some separate god from the single God identified in scripture?

I'm not sure where you get your history from. We know historically that Christ was divine from the first century. We know his divinity was emphasized much earlier in debates that routed out the heretical teachings of Arianism and Modalism. These were debated in the third century. It is so stupid to just focus on Trinitarian doctrine when you also deny the divinity of Christ itself. This certainly is the effort of the Arianists to distract from orthodox Christian knowledge.

I'm sorry that you consider the findings of scripture as snake oil. Can I recommend Hinduism to you instead?

 

[mikesw]

Jews and Christrians are aggressively and strictly monotheistc and always have been. There is no mention of the trinity in orthodox Judeo-Christian writings. There are some fringe groups that idenify as Jews or Christians, who sometimes believe in a trinity or multi-person god, but they are sectarian and not considered to be in alignment with mainstream Judaism or Christianity.

I think you will be more comfortable with mainstream Judaism. They just have a focus on the Talmud and some traditions without having to think who Jesus is. You will be more comfortable there.
As to your idea of mainstream Christianity, that is essentially recognizing the Triune nature of God. I'm not sure how you can define mainstream Christianity except by that recognition.

I recommend you read some history. The trinity is a post-Christian development and wasn't offically sorted out until the 4th century councils. Trinitarianism wasn't considered the official religion of the Catholic church by around the mid 4th century, but they didn't settle on making the "Holy Spirit" the 3rd member of their godhead until the late 4th century. Eventually, there was an offshoot from the Catholics called the Protestants in the 17th century.

I guess you appreciate Roman Catholicism where you hold to the daily mass to redo Christ's death everyday. Sorry if I mess up the concept a bit. You can look to the Pope as your authority --which does not fare well for you since you seem to reject his authority too.

I had posted a thread topic a while ago on those who accept the divinity of Christ but reject the Trinitarian doctrine. That is a chance to acknowledge who Christ Jesus is while not appreciating the philosophical terms of the Trinitarian doctrine that sought to distinguish the accepted Triune conception from those who would pretend to hold to a Triune God while functionally denying it.

 

[Runningman]

Do you not know that Jews and Christians have remained monotheist even when recognizing the attributes of God in multiple persons?

Do you not know that Christians recognized the divinity of Christ from the first century onward -- even where Thomas states that upon seeing Jesus after his resurrection?

Do you know realize the Trinitarian doctrine is to recognize that Jesus is not some separate god from the single God identified in scripture?

I'm not sure where you get your history from. We know historically that Christ was divine from the first century. We know his divinity was emphasized much earlier in debates that routed out the heretical teachings of Arianism and Modalism. These were debated in the third century. It is so stupid to just focus on Trinitarian doctrine when you also deny the divinity of Christ itself. This certainly is the effort of the Arianists to distract from orthodox Christian knowledge.

I'm sorry that you consider the findings of scripture as snake oil. Can I recommend Hinduism to you instead?

Your indoctrination is showing. God is never described as being more than one person or with plural pronouns. You have been shown repeatedly that is God just one person. Let's give you more scripture to reject.

John 17:3 and 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 that defines the Shema as the Father only.

Mark 12​

29Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One​

​

1 Corinthians 8​

4So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.​

YHWH is the Father:

Isaiah 63:16​

"For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O LORD [YHWH], are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name."​

​

Isaiah 64:8​

"But now, O LORD [YHWH], you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."​

​

Malachi 2:10​

"Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?"​

​

Deuteronomy 32:6​

"Do you thus repay the LORD [YHWH], you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you?"​

YHWH is the true God:

Jeremiah 10:10​

"But the LORD [YHWH] is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations canno endure his indignation."​

​

Psalm 100:3​

"Know that the LORD [YHWH], he is God! It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture."​

The Father is the only true God:

​

John 17:3​

"And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."​

​

1John 5:20​

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."​

​

Ephesians 4:6​

"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."​

​

1Timothy 2:5​

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."​

​

John 5:44​

"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?"​

Scripture defines the One God as the Father who alone is YHWH:

Mark 12:29​

"Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One"​

​

1 Corinthians 8:4-6​

"So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist."​

 

[Runningman]

I think you will be more comfortable with mainstream Judaism. They just have a focus on the Talmud and some traditions without having to think who Jesus is. You will be more comfortable there.
As to your idea of mainstream Christianity, that is essentially recognizing the Triune nature of God. I'm not sure how you can define mainstream Christianity except by that recognition.


I guess you appreciate Roman Catholicism where you hold to the daily mass to redo Christ's death everyday. Sorry if I mess up the concept a bit. You can look to the Pope as your authority --which does not fare well for you since you seem to reject his authority too.

I had posted a thread topic a while ago on those who accept the divinity of Christ but reject the Trinitarian doctrine. That is a chance to acknowledge who Christ Jesus is while not appreciating the philosophical terms of the Trinitarian doctrine that sought to distinguish the accepted Triune conception from those who would pretend to hold to a Triune God while functionally denying it.

The New Covenant isn't a new a new religion called Christianity. It originally began with the Jews and Jesus commisioned it to go out to the Gentiles in the whole world. There isn't a new god called a trinity in what we now call Christianity. Christian retains the same God as what the Jews had. Again, learn some history. The Jews by and large do not believe in a trinity god, never have, never will. This is why trinitarianism masquerading as Christianity has been a stumbling block for Jewish converts. Ask any Jew and they will tell you the Bible explicitly teaches the Father is the only true God and they believe that. They do not, however, believe in your church and neither do I.

I believe in the church Jesus founded and the one the disciples went around teaching people about. This is the church where Jesus and his disciples have the same God they all call Father and enjoy a comunion as sons of daughters of God. I really hope you get to experience being a child of God some day, but your idol will serve as a progress stoper, remains an afront to God, but is entirely pardonable. I don't think that it will be easier for folks like you because of all of the additional light you've gotten the grace to be exposed to but have, unfortunately, rejected.

 

[mikesw]

Your indoctrination is showing. God is never described as being more than one person or with plural pronouns. You have been shown repeatedly that is God just one person. Let's give you more scripture to reject.

John 17:3 and 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 that defines the Shema as the Father only.

Mark 12​

29Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One​

​

1 Corinthians 8​

4So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.​

YHWH is the Father:

Isaiah 63:16​

"For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O LORD [YHWH], are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name."​

​

Isaiah 64:8​

"But now, O LORD [YHWH], you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."​

​

Malachi 2:10​

"Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?"​

​

Deuteronomy 32:6​

"Do you thus repay the LORD [YHWH], you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you?"​

YHWH is the true God:

Jeremiah 10:10​

"But the LORD [YHWH] is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations canno endure his indignation."​

​

Psalm 100:3​

"Know that the LORD [YHWH], he is God! It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture."​

The Father is the only true God:

​

John 17:3​

"And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."​

​

1John 5:20​

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."​

​

Ephesians 4:6​

"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."​

​

1Timothy 2:5​

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."​

​

John 5:44​

"How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?"​

Scripture defines the One God as the Father who alone is YHWH:

Mark 12:29​

"Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One"​

​

1 Corinthians 8:4-6​

"So about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist."​

You are forgetting a year's worth of passages shared by many people to you and in these threads. You deny the evidence of the divinity of Christ. You miss the ambiguity. You do not recognize the history of recognition of the divinity of Christ. You pretend like it is a late development when there are indications from the earliest writings of the divinity of Christ.
Mar 12:29 and Deut 6:4 point to the oneness of God. We would not expect God and Christ to act in dualness because we have these passages.
In 1Cor 8:4-6 Jesus as in all of Paul's writings is quoted along with the Father because they are in oneness.
You deny John 1 that speaks clearly of the divinity of Christ. If you could recognize the ambiguity and not just deny who Christ is, you would have a chance of getting back on track -- if you ever were on a proper course.

 

[Runningman]

You are forgetting a year's worth of passages shared by many people to you and in these threads. You deny the evidence of the divinity of Christ. You miss the ambiguity. You do not recognize the history of recognition of the divinity of Christ. You pretend like it is a late development when there are indications from the earliest writings of the divinity of Christ.
Mar 12:29 and Deut 6:4 point to the oneness of God. We would not expect God and Christ to act in dualness because we have these passages.
In 1Cor 8:4-6 Jesus as in all of Paul's writings is quoted along with the Father because they are in oneness.
You deny John 1 that speaks clearly of the divinity of Christ. If you could recognize the ambiguity and not just deny who Christ is, you would have a chance of getting back on track -- if you ever were on a proper course.

All of the arguments I have seen here have been refuted with simple talking points. Whenever someone has said "Jesus is God for X reason" there has been nothing but Scripture that proves contrary to those claims. Probably the biggest issue you guys face when trying to create evidence or proof for the deity of Jesus is that you all have to make arguments rather than just show Scripture.

You guys are good at explaining your doctrines, but you don't have any Scripture that actually states the conclusion of your doctrines. Your conclusion is that Jesus is God, but the Bible does not provide that conclusion. The Bible says there is but one God and after that directly says that one God is the Father. To you guys, that's no good. You say "The one God is the Trinity." Then you can't provide any Scripture that says the one God is the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." See the issue?

 

[mikesw]

All of the arguments I have seen here have been refuted with simple talking points. Whenever someone has said "Jesus is God for X reason" there has been nothing but Scripture that proves contrary to those claims. Probably the biggest issue you guys face when trying to create evidence or proof for the deity of Jesus is that you all have to make arguments rather than just show Scripture.

You guys are good at explaining your doctrines, but you don't have any Scripture that actually states the conclusion of your doctrines. Your conclusion is that Jesus is God, but the Bible does not provide that conclusion. The Bible says there is but one God and after that directly says that one God is the Father. To you guys, that's no good. You say "The one God is the Trinity." Then you can't provide any Scripture that says the one God is the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." See the issue?

scriptures have no significance to you. you just deny passages about Christ's divinity. you are also a hyper-literalist when you ask for a passage to speak of the Trinity -- you anthropomorphize God by reducing him to your weak human mind. You quote stuff like JOhn 17:3 but deny verse 5 right afterwards. How can we trust you in any debate to share any truth?

 

[Runningman]

scriptures have no significance to you. you just deny passages about Christ's divinity. you are also a hyper-literalist when you ask for a passage to speak of the Trinity -- you anthropomorphize God by reducing him to your weak human mind. You quote stuff like JOhn 17:3 but deny verse 5 right afterwards. How can we trust you in any debate to share any truth?

Another exercise in futility as always with you. Put up some Scripture about anyone saying God is the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" or give up already.

 

[mikesw]

Another exercise in futility as always with you. Put up some Scripture about anyone saying God is the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" or give up already.

Thanks for proving your hyper-literalist expectation for scripture. I guest you think God's Spirit is just an illusion. I guess you call John 1 an error of John's perception. I guess you deny the virgin birth as mythology. Who knows what you believe once you deny Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

Folks keep telling me Genesis 1:1 is Plural so Jesus must be God.​

The word elohim is always found in the plural form and is often called a uniplural noun. A uniplural noun is a word that appears in the plural form but is used for singular and plural subjects alike. “Deer” and “fish” are examples of uniplural nouns in English. As with many Hebrew words, elohim carries more than one definition. When it is being used in a plural sense, it refers to “gods” or “men with authority.” When it is used in its singular sense, it can refer to “God” or “a god” or “a man with authority, such as a judge.” The Hebrew lexicon by Brown, Driver, and Briggs is considered to be one of the best available and it has as its first usage for elohim: “rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power, divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels, gods.

 

[mikesw]

Folks keep telling me Genesis 1:1 is Plural so Jesus must be God.​

The word elohim is always found in the plural form and is often called a uniplural noun. A uniplural noun is a word that appears in the plural form but is used for singular and plural subjects alike. “Deer” and “fish” are examples of uniplural nouns in English. As with many Hebrew words, elohim carries more than one definition. When it is being used in a plural sense, it refers to “gods” or “men with authority.” When it is used in its singular sense, it can refer to “God” or “a god” or “a man with authority, such as a judge.” The Hebrew lexicon by Brown, Driver, and Briggs is considered to be one of the best available and it has as its first usage for elohim: “rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power, divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels, gods.

I'm not sure how the one word controls anything when the actual distinctions are the mention of the Spirit of God in v 2 and the plural use in v26. The elaboration on the word elohim then has, at best, a lesser role than these other two points. Then the worst usage is "rulers, judges" but we know it is not multiple gods nor angels behind creation. Most importantly the wording of Gen 1:2,26 allow for (and even favors) the later revelation of the Triune essence of God.
The other options offered for the plurals -- such as plural of majesty or God's court -- could be considered but those seem weak with the possibility that such wording may not be used again in the OT about God. But we have Jesus as the author of life (Act 3:15) and John 1:10 with Jesus as the one through whom the world was made.