MTMattie
Active Member
But they are not the same person..... Jesus' baptism proves that
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
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Johann
Active Member
A whole lotta questions here Rella, One-Echad, not Yachid and echad is NOT a numerical one, as most lexicons would have you believe.
The Triune Godhead is echad, not yachid, yet "distinct" as your verses confirms.
I can give you many examples, but you have already done so.
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
Joh 1:4 In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]
If you are interested and have a Bible Software I will gladly share this version with you as a module. And share plenty links---
Shalom @MTMattie.
J.
Johann
Active Member
@MTMattie
Isaiah 48:16 (SBL Hebrew):
"קָרַבְתִּי בְצֶדֶק לֹא יַחֲסִיר שְׂפָתָי אֲדַבֵּר בָּכֶם יִהְיֶה־נָּא ה' יְהוָה שָׁלַחַנִי וְרוּחוֹ׃"
qāraḇtî ḇəṣeḏeq lō’ yaḥasîr śəp̄āṯay ’ăḏabbēr ḇākem yihyeh-nā’ YHWH šālaḥanî wərūḥô
Translation: "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time it was, I was there. And now the Lord YHWH has sent Me, and His Spirit."
Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken baseter (in secret) merosh (from the first); from the time that it takes place, there am I; and now Adonoi Hashem, and His Ruach [Hakodesh], hath sent Me [Moshiach, the Eved Hashem; see Isaiah 42:1; see Hashem’s Kedushah HaMeshulleshet here].
The speaker (often understood as the Servant or the Messiah) states that YHWH and His Spirit have sent Him, indicating a plurality within the divine mission.
This verse suggests that the Spirit of YHWH is not merely an impersonal force but is distinct and cooperates in divine action, similar to the New Testament portrayal of the Trinity.
2. New Testament Correlation:
The Trinitarian relationship is illustrated more explicitly in the New Testament, particularly in passages where all three persons are present and acting.
Matthew 3:16-17 (SBL Greek):
"καὶ βαπτισθεὶς ὁ Ἰησοῦς εὐθὺς ἀνέβη ἀπὸ τοῦ ὕδατος· καὶ ἰδοὺ ἠνεῴχθησαν οἱ οὐρανοί, καὶ εἶδεν τὸ Πνεῦμα τοῦ Θεοῦ καταβαῖνον ὡσεὶ περιστερὰν ἐρχόμενον ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν·
καὶ ἰδοὺ φωνὴ ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν λέγουσα· Οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ Υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν ᾧ εὐδόκησα."
"And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon Him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Mat 3:16 And having received the tevilah in the Yarden’s mikveh mayim, Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach immediately came up. And, hinei! The Shomayim were opened to him, and he saw the Ruach Hakodesh of Hashem descending like a yonah (dove) and coming upon him.
Mat 3:17 And, hinei, a bat kol (a voice from heaven) came out of Shomayim, saying, ZEH BNI AHUVI ASHER BO CHAFATZTI (This is my Son, the beloved, with whom I am well pleased).
Presence of the Trinity:
Jesus (the Son) being baptized.
The Spirit of God descending upon Him like a dove.
The Father’s voice from heaven declaring His pleasure.
These verses are not meant to imply modalism (one God manifesting in different modes) but rather illustrate the coexistent presence and distinction of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The Spirit’s descent and the Father’s voice affirm the distinct personhood of each member of the Godhead while maintaining their unity of essence.
Isaiah 48:16 in the Old Testament and Matthew 3:16-17 in the New Testament both present a complex unity within the Godhead. The Spirit of YHWH is not an independent entity but is part of the divine identity shared by YHWH, the Word (Jesus), and the Spirit. The baptism of Jesus serves as a narrative demonstration of this triune relationship.
I don't want to confuse the issue but would rather share sources with you. If you are interested Rella.
J.
MTMattie
Active Member
I would be but no bible software... Sorry
101G
Active Member
Johann
Active Member
101G
Active Member
to all,
Hear this, the LORD, the Father, the Lord the Son is JESUS the Holy Spirit. understand the Holy Spirit is the Father who created ALL THING. and the Holy Spirit is the Son who Came and redeem all things that he had made in the beginning.
the Holy Spirit is the ONLY God, who name is "Jesus". YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT IN ERROR. understand, it is the Holy Spirit that is the ECHAD of himself in flesh.
this is just too easy not to be understand.
101G suggest everyone needs to go back to Genesis 1:1 and get the TRUTH.
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:"
if God don't know any other person beside him.... why put someone beside him?
Hear is the MYSTERY to KNOW ..... the ECHAD, or the DIVERSITY is the EQUAL SHARE of God in Ordinal Designations of First and Last. knowing this .... it answer the US and OUR in Genesis 1:26 and 27. the baptism of the Lord Jesus, and anything else.
101G.
101G.
Hear this, the LORD, the Father, the Lord the Son is JESUS the Holy Spirit. understand the Holy Spirit is the Father who created ALL THING. and the Holy Spirit is the Son who Came and redeem all things that he had made in the beginning.
the Holy Spirit is the ONLY God, who name is "Jesus". YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT IN ERROR. understand, it is the Holy Spirit that is the ECHAD of himself in flesh.
this is just too easy not to be understand.
101G suggest everyone needs to go back to Genesis 1:1 and get the TRUTH.
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:"
if God don't know any other person beside him.... why put someone beside him?
Hear is the MYSTERY to KNOW ..... the ECHAD, or the DIVERSITY is the EQUAL SHARE of God in Ordinal Designations of First and Last. knowing this .... it answer the US and OUR in Genesis 1:26 and 27. the baptism of the Lord Jesus, and anything else.
101G.
101G.
101G
Active Member
no, incorrect ... LISTEN CAREFULLY, "Diversified Oneness" .... (smile),
just as the Lord Jesus taught and his Disciple, and the apostles.now, to put your incorrect personal opinion to rest question, "Who raised up the Lord Jesus Body?" was it God, the ONE whom you called the Father? yes or no
101G.
Do you find also even a single verse that say "Jesus is not God?"
[/QUOTE]
Maybe we have eyes but cannot see. Maybe can see but refuse to understand. If you want the word "trinity" find first if there is a word "Bible" in the OT and NT. But if you need Bible verses with open mind, maybe God will enlightened you. But I might think that having that closed mind for the truth is governed by the GB.
[/QUOTE]
I know perfectly well that you can answer my first question honestly and logically; 1. Jesus as "Son of man" as His mother is human Mary. Is He man or not? 2. And Jesus as "Son of God", as His Father is God. Is He God or not? Why the honest and logical answer to the first question cannot be applied to the second? Why and explain.
[/QUOTE]
Jesus acknowledged both, being the "Son of man" and being the "Son of God in Mat 26:62-63.
I believe that would prove the dual nature of Jesus from His words Himself.
Verse below mentioned the personal name of the Father "יהוה", Whom He is the one speaking in Gen 1:26 "Let us" make man in our image. Jesus is the other that the Father talked to about.
Isa 44:24 Thus said יהוה, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, “I am יהוה, doing all, stretching out the heavens all alone, spreading out the earth, with none beside Me,
MTMattie
Active Member
Here is post #88. It does not regard the subject at hand. Therefore
Therefore.... yes I am sure. You cannot have a voice from the sky, A descending Spirit in the form of a dove landing on someone and Someone who has come up from the water after a baptism and say they are one, all inclusive singular being.
101G
Active Member
GINOLJC, to all.
number 1. no one's personal name is "I AM", for H1961 הָיָה hayah (haw-yaw) v. is a VERB and not a noun.
1. to exist.
2. to be or become.
3. to come into being, i.e. to happen, to occur (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary).
[a primitive root]
KJV: beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.
Compare: H1933
second, you said, "Whom He is the one speaking in Gen 1:26 "Let us" make man in our image. Jesus is the other that the Father talked to about". yes, to COME in the IMAGE he made, man. supportive scripture, Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." FIGURE here is ... "IMAGE", and God was to come in that IMAGE, .... MAN. for thge Christ was not at Genesis 1:1, but JESUS the Spirit was. supportive scripture, Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." PLEASE NOTE, IT WAS ONLY ONE PERSON IN THE BEGINNING WHO MADE MAN MALE AND FEMALE, read Genesis 1:27 again.
see, people don't understand how God went from a plurality of US and OUR in verse 26 to a singularity of HIS and he in the very next verse. yes, the ANOTHER in the ECHAD .... "WAS TO COME", just as Romans 5:14 clearly states.
and this coming "Last", or Later" is in Ordinal designations of First and Last, or Root and Offspring, ot Alpha and Omega, or Aleph and Tav, or beginning and end..... must 101G go on?
think, ....... God is the ECHAD, or the Another of himself in Ordinal designations, in ..... TIME, PLACE, ORDER and RANK, just at the term "beginning" clearly states in Genesis 1:1. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"
and beginning here is,
H7225 רֵאשִׁית re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.
1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.
2. (specifically) a firstfruit.
[from the same as H7218]
KJV: beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Root(s): H7218
THE "FIRST" in place, time, order or rank.
this is just too easy,
101G.
101G
Active Member
True, a voice .... from heaven? sure, but is the voice as some say is the Father's voice? no, there is no scripture to that effect, not at the Lord Jesus baptism.
101G.
MTMattie
Active Member
Well, I am becoming convinced that was not Jesus' baptism at all.
But lets say it was and see what that voice from heaven allegedly said.
The full scenario.
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water.
At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
17And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
So... we have this voice....... who says " This is my Son,"
Please answer in your opinion if this voice belonged to Lucifer?
Or was it's God's voice but maybe He was referring to the Spirt Dove as His son?
I would think it had to be one or the other???????????
UNLESS... and maybe, just maybe.... When Jesus came into His own for preacheing we never ever heard a
thing about Joseph.... did we????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Not after He was 12 and in that temple......
SO.... perhaps God took Joseph ( we never heard of him dying) and on Jesus' baptism day proud Papa Joseph made that statement..
Your choice, as as others are proving the Holy Book is not reliable... which do you think?
101G
Active Member
there is no need for any personal opinion, dose the bible say is was God's voice or the devil's? no, 101G see you either did not read the post 101G asked you to read or you just did not understand.
ok, so, we will meet you on your level. listen carefully, YOU SAID, "So... we have this voice....... who says " This is my Son," Please answer in your opinion if this voice belonged to Lucifer?
Listen once MORE. Genesis 22:11 "And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I." Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." who was this speaking out of heaven? God, the angel of the LORD, or the devil? which one?
your answer please.
101G.
MTMattie
Active Member
Do I really wanna play? No, but then again.
God never talks.... Not even to Moses and that also was an angel....
30;“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning thorn bush.
31When Moses saw it, he marveled at the sight; and as he approached to look more closely, there came the voice of the Lord: 32‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob.’ Moses shook with fear and would not venture to look.
So I doubt it was the Devil.... but I was not there..... (though the devil AKA Lucifer was an angel)
But if an angel said this is my son..... How does that computed that Jesus' dad was an angel?
The word, comes from God. The Word who also is known as Jesus... but maybe not.... could be the Word is an Angel as Angels speak. The Word spoke. Jesus spoke.....
so who was that angel who was bold enough to declare
30. an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai,
31. there came the voice of the Lord:
32. ‘I am the God of your fathers,
OK... Ill go with Angel shouted down...
Why? Because YHWH/God the Father does not speak and if an angel was to be portrayed as being YHWH I am the God of your fathers, then that angel... (Perhaps another) could be portrayed as saying " This is my Son,"
You win.....congratulations.
The bible is not for believers. Ill trust what is placed on my heart.
DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT IS TO BE DONE WITH BIBLES WHEN YOU ARE DONE? LIKE THE DOZEN OR SO MORE OR LESS THAT I HAVE.
I HAVE AN OLD AMERICAN FLAG PLACE I CAN DISPOSE OF OLD FLAGS THERE ... BUT HEY... I'LL CHECK WITH THE CATHOLICS BECAUSE THEY STILL DONT WANT THE BIBLE READ..... OR SHIP THEM OFF TO cHINA?
Peterlag
Active Member
Now Capbook,
This is not an intelligent question. We don't entertain what is not there by saying it is not there. There were no cars on the earth when Jesus was walking the earth. And thus, there's no Scripture that says there are no cars because there were no cars.
synergy
Active Member
Now Peterlag,
So there are a zillion warnings in the Bible saying not to worship images, statues, people, idols, etc... as God and there is not even one single verse warning you not to worship Jesus as God?!?! Your response is a clearly a feeble attempt to run away from the fact that the Bible does not support your heresies.
Peterlag
Active Member
run away? When did I ever run away from a biblical conversation?
Peterlag
Active Member
The early church was always baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus...
until the development of the Trinity doctrine in the 2nd century. The Catholics acknowledge baptism was changed and Scripture such as Matthew 28:19 that was never in the Bible was added by them.
Britannica Encyclopedia, 11th Edition, Volume 3, page 365 – Baptism was changed from the name of Jesus to words Father, Son and Holy Ghost in the 2nd Century.
Canney Encyclopedia of Religion, page 53 – The early church baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until the second century.
Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion, Volume 2 – Christian baptism was administered using the words "in the name of Jesus." page 377. Baptism was always in the name of Jesus until the time of Justin Martyr, page 389.
Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume 2, page 263 – Here the authors acknowledged that the baptismal formula was changed by their church.
Schaff – Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Volume 1, page 435 – The New Testament knows only the baptism in the name of Jesus.
Hastings Dictionary of Bible, page 88 – It must be acknowledged that the three fold name of Matthew 28:19 does not appear to have been used by the primitive church, but rather in the name of Jesus, Jesus Christ or Lord Jesus.
until the development of the Trinity doctrine in the 2nd century. The Catholics acknowledge baptism was changed and Scripture such as Matthew 28:19 that was never in the Bible was added by them.
Britannica Encyclopedia, 11th Edition, Volume 3, page 365 – Baptism was changed from the name of Jesus to words Father, Son and Holy Ghost in the 2nd Century.
Canney Encyclopedia of Religion, page 53 – The early church baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until the second century.
Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion, Volume 2 – Christian baptism was administered using the words "in the name of Jesus." page 377. Baptism was always in the name of Jesus until the time of Justin Martyr, page 389.
Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume 2, page 263 – Here the authors acknowledged that the baptismal formula was changed by their church.
Schaff – Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Volume 1, page 435 – The New Testament knows only the baptism in the name of Jesus.
Hastings Dictionary of Bible, page 88 – It must be acknowledged that the three fold name of Matthew 28:19 does not appear to have been used by the primitive church, but rather in the name of Jesus, Jesus Christ or Lord Jesus.
