All believers are baptized into The Body of Christ

[civic]

When they passed through the water they were in the ark.
Did the water save them or did being in the ark save them from the waters of the flood?

Is that a trick question

 

[Doug Brents]

When they passed through the water they were in the ark.
Did the water save them or did being in the ark save them from the waters of the flood?

Both, and neither.
God saved them. And they were saved through their faith (obedience in building the Ark, and coming inside when God invited them in). And they were saved by the water lifting the Ark, instead of sinking in the water as all the rest of humanity did.

So these Gentiles:
1. Had the Holy Spirit fall on them (Acts 10:44).
2. Had the Holy Spirit poured out on them (Acts 10:45).
3. Had received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47).
4. Had been given the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17; 15:8).
5. Were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17; 15:8; cf. Acts 2:4 'filled')

But they did not receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
What an absurd claim.

Not absurd in the least. Salvation (and the indwelling of the Spirit) is the result of water baptism as has been spelled out.
The Gentiles here had not been baptized.
Therefore they did not have the indwelling of the Spirit yet.
They did have the Spirit's miraculous power (as did many of the OT prophets and judges), but they did not have the indwelling yet.

 

[Fred]

Both, and neither.
God saved them. And they were saved through their faith (obedience in building the Ark, and coming inside when God invited them in). And they were saved by the water lifting the Ark, instead of sinking in the water as all the rest of humanity did.

Thus, they were saved in the ark (life) protecting them from the waters of the flood (death).

Not absurd in the least. Salvation (and the indwelling of the Spirit) is the result of water baptism as has been spelled out.

But not demonstrated with proof - simply your assertion.

The Gentiles here had not been baptized.

Yes, they did. They were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Therefore they did not have the indwelling of the Spirit yet.
They did have the Spirit's miraculous power (as did many of the OT prophets and judges), but they did not have the indwelling yet.

Your made up claim that they really didn't possess the Holy Spirit, but simply had His power.

They were filled with the Holy Spirit, but were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
Incredible.

 

[Doug Brents]

But not demonstrated with proof - simply your assertion.

Just because you refuse to accept Scripture as proof, does not mean that the proof was not given.

Yes, they did. They were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

But the baptism of the Holy Spirit (fire and speaking in tongues) is not what saves. If it were, then the only people to ever be saved would be the 120 in the room at Pentecost and those in the room with Cornelius.

Your made up claim that they really didn't possess the Holy Spirit, but simply had His power.

They were filled with the Holy Spirit, but were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
Incredible.

Num 24:2, Num 27:18, Judges 3:10, Judges 11:29, Judges 13:25, and many others. The Holy Spirit filled, clothed, entered, was with, etc. these men and they did great and miraculous deeds. Yet none of them were indwelt by the Spirit because the indwelling did not begin until after Jesus was glorified (John 7:39).

 

[Fred]

Just because you refuse to accept Scripture as proof, does not mean that the proof was not given.

I refuse to accept your false interpretation as proof. The Scriptures are great.
Don't confuse the two.

But the baptism of the Holy Spirit (fire and speaking in tongues) is not what saves.

Zero proof given (again).

If it were, then the only people to ever be saved would be the 120 in the room at Pentecost and those in the room with Cornelius.

That's your false confusion conclusion.
All Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit. He was "poured" out on those in Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 2:17) and He has been "poured" out on all who are Christians (Titus 3:6).

Num 24:2, Num 27:18, Judges 3:10, Judges 11:29, Judges 13:25, and many others.

Different covenant. Doesn't apply.

Whereas the Holy Spirit worked through both believers (1 Samuel 16:13) and unbelievers (Numbers 24:2) during the Old Covenant era, John 7:39 teaches that during the NT Church era He would "enter into and become the life of the believer, producing in him the life of Jesus” (S.H. Hooke, NTS, 9, 1962-63, page 380).

The Holy Spirit filled, clothed, entered, was with, etc. these men and they did great and miraculous deeds. Yet none of them were indwelt by the Spirit because the indwelling did not begin until after Jesus was glorified (John 7:39).

Thanks for mentioning John 7, because it is another proof that Cornelius and those with him were saved before they were water baptized.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/all-believers-are-baptized-into-the-body-of-christ.507/#post-11028

 

[Doug Brents]

I refuse to accept your false interpretation as proof. The Scriptures are great.
Don't confuse the two.

Indeed the Scriptures are great, and must be interpreted as one unit, not individual snippets as you like them. You have taken to believing that every reference to the Holy Spirit is the same, but He gives different gifts to different people, and His gifts are not to be confused with His indwelling, nor with salvation.

Zero proof given (again).

Oh, I see. You are incapable of looking up a verse reference on your own, and require that I include the verse written out for you to accept it. Is that it? No? Then proof was given, and is found in Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.

That's your false confusion conclusion.
All Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit. He was "poured out on those in Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 2:17) and He has been "poured" out on all who are Christians (Titus 3:6).

All who are in Christ have received the Holy Spirit (the indwelling), but none (other than the Jews on Pentecost and the Gentiles with Cornelius) have ever received the Holy Spirit coming in tongues of fire (the baptism of the Holy Spirit).

Different covenant. Doesn't apply.

Same Spirit. It does apply!

Whereas the Holy Spirit worked through both believers (1 Samuel 16:13) and unbelievers (Numbers 24:2) during the Old Covenant era, John 7:39 teaches that during the NT Church era He would "enter into and become the life of the believer, producing in him the life of Jesus” (S.H. Hooke, NTS, 9, 1962-63, page 380).

Indeed He did: that is the indwelling. But that is not to say that everyone who has the miraculous power of the Spirit has the indwelling. There you are adding to what Scripture says.

 

[Fred]

Acts 2:38

Never a command given to anyone else but the Jews of that time period.

1 Pet 3:21

You dodged my first sentence concerning this passage from post 83.

Same Spirit. It does apply!

Different covenant. It doesn't apply!

I There you are adding to what Scripture says.

There you have zero proof from the Scriptures.


In terms of Cornelius and the other Gentiles needing to be water baptized in order to be saved you are simply seeing a mirage.

 

[Doug Brents]

Never a command given to anyone else but the Jews of that time period.

So you are saying that there are different rules for Jews and Gentiles in the Church?
Hmm, then why did God say that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the Church? All are the same in Christ, and there is only one path to salvation for everyone.

You dodged my first sentence concerning this passage from post 83.

I don't see any reference to a passage of Scripture in post 83, so I could not have dodged it. You simply stated that I had not given any proof, and that is a dodge if ever there was one.

Different covenant. It doesn't apply!

So you are conceding the point that the Spirit worked through people (both believers and non-believers) in the OT? That is all I was pointing out. Same Spirit, but different operation. So it is relevant, in pointing out how He can operate as empowering and not indwelling.

In terms of Cornelius and the other Gentiles needing to be water baptized in order to be saved you are simply seeing a mirage.

Your opinion has been duly noted.
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’"
There will be many who did wonders, and prophesied, and preached in Jesus' name, and they will believe they are saved; but at Judgement Jesus will say He NEVER knew them. Not that they fell away, not that they left; no, He never knew them because they never entered into fellowship with Him through obedient faith. And there are only three things that Scripture says lead to salvation: repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism in water. If these three things are not done, then that will lead to the "I never knew you" verdict.

 

[Fred]

So you are saying that there are different rules for Jews and Gentiles in the Church?
Hmm, then why did God say that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the Church? All are the same in Christ, and there is only one path to salvation for everyone.

Please give one example of anyone else ever being told to be water baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit.

I don't see any reference to a passage of Scripture in post 83

It was in relation to 1 Peter 3:21.
If you did just a little bit of logical thinking you might have been able to figure this out.
Here it is again:
Thus, they were saved in the ark (life) protecting them from the waters of the flood (death).

through obedient faith.

That's why God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32)
This would be obedient faith.
These Gentiles were given the Holy Spirit before they wer water baptized. Thus, they had obedeint faith before they were water baptized.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): He who obeys God receives as a reward, not earthly goods, but the one and only gift of the last time by which early Christianity differentiates itself from Judaism (Ac...15:8), namely, the Spirit of God (5:32) (4:725, misthos, Preisker).

Thanks for making this easy for me.

 

[Doug Brents]

Please give one example of anyone else ever being told to be water baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit.

There does not need to be additional exact instructions. All Scripture was authored by the Holy Spirit and so is one body of God's word. No part of it is more (or less) valid than any other part. So then:
Eph 4:5-6 says there is only one baptism in the NT Church.
1 Pet 3:21 says the one baptism that saves us requires water.
Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-4 say that it is during (water) baptism that the Holy Spirit takes action to remove our sin and unite us with Christ.
Acts 8:36 demonstrates that water baptism was the baptism that the very early Church taught.
John 3:5 Jesus says that we enter into the Kingdom through water and the Spirit.
Acts 2:38 says that repentance and (water) baptism are both required to receive forgiveness of sins.
Mark 16:16 says that belief of the Gospel and (water) baptism result in being saved.
Gal 3:27 those who are (water) baptized into Christ have been clothed with Christ.

It was in relation to 1 Peter 3:21.
If you did just a little bit of logical thinking you might have been able to figure this out.
Here it is again:
Thus, they were saved in the ark (life) protecting them from the waters of the flood (death).

And if you read what Scripture says you might learn something important.
"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
It is while passing through the water of baptism that we are saved. Obviously the water does not remove our sins ("not the removeal of dirt from the flesh"), but it is the Holy Spirit who removes our sins and cleanses our conscience.

That's why God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32)
This would be obedient faith.
These Gentiles were given the Holy Spirit before they wer water baptized. Thus, they had obedeint faith before they were water baptized.

Thanks for making this easy for me.

No, they did not have obedient faith, because Peter was still preaching the Gospel to them (Acts 10:44). Yes, they believed (had given intellectual assent) to what Peter said, but they had not yet repented, confessed Jesus as their Lord, or received water baptism which is the point at which we enter into Christ (Gal 3:27). You take the fact that the Holy Spirit came on them in power as evidence of salvation, but that does not fit with the Scriptures cited above.

 

[Fred]

There does not need to be additional exact instructions.

Thanks for your admission that you are unable to.

"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"
It is while passing through the water of baptism that we are saved.

In a picture, because when they were in the ark that was their lifeboat.
Christ is the ark of the Christian's salvation.

Obviously the water does not remove our sins ("not the removeal of dirt from the flesh"), but it is the Holy Spirit who removes our sins and cleanses our conscience.

No, they did not have obedient faith, because Peter was still preaching the Gospel to them (Acts 10:44).

And when they were obedient they were given the Holy Spirit because God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32).

Gal 3:27

The baptism with the Holy Spirit.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/all-believers-are-baptized-into-the-body-of-christ.507/#post-11033

 

[Doug Brents]

Thanks for your admission that you are unable to.

That statement proves that you neither read, nor understand, all of what is said to you, nor do you understand how to read Scripture.

In a picture, because when they were in the ark that was their lifeboat.
Christ is the ark of the Christian's salvation.

And He is received through water baptism as laid out above (which you completely ignored, deleted, and refuse to accept.

And when they were obedient they were given the Holy Spirit because God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32).

His indwelling, yes. As you have pointed out, He can give the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit to non-believers as well.

 

[Fred]

That statement proves

You have zero evidence in your favor.

And He is received through water baptism as laid out above (which you completely ignored, deleted, and refuse to accept.

Acts 10:47 teaches the Holy Spirit was received before their water baptism (Acts 10:48).

His indwelling, yes.

To those He given to are those He indwells.

As you have pointed out, He can give the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit to non-believers as well.

Not in the Church age.
Nice try.

Didn't work.

 

[Doug Brents]

You have zero evidence in your favor.

Again, I love how you cut off what I say, and comment on only partial statements (dripping with sarcasm).

Acts 10:47 teaches the Holy Spirit was received before their water baptism (Acts 10:48).

Only the miraculous works, not the indwelling.

To those He given to are those He indwells.

As evidenced in earlier posts (which you conveniently claim "Different covenant. It doesn't apply!") this has been shown to be untrue.

Not in the Church age.
Nice try.

Didn't work.

Again, we have been through all this before.
We are done here.

 

[Fred]

Again, I love how you cut off what I say, and comment on only partial statements (dripping with sarcasm).

No excuses for your total inability to provide any examples.

Only the miraculous works, not the indwelling.

Your assertion which of course no Greek lexicon agrees with.

As evidenced in earlier posts (which you conveniently claim "Different covenant. It doesn't apply!") this has been shown to be untrue.

Another assertion without proof.


You're done?
You haven't even started to provide evidence for your inane claims.

 

[Doug Brents]

You haven't even started to provide evidence for your inane claims.

I have, but you refuse to see what Scripture says.

 

[Fred]

I have, but you refuse to see what Scripture says.

Another assertion without proof.

Typical.

 

[dwight92070]

This explains it better than I have:

http://baptisthistoryhomepage.com/pink.local.church.html

The apostles and other believers who were with them seem to have received the indwelling Holy Spirit in John 20:22, where Jesus "breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit' ".
Then in Acts 2 they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5). The term the Bible uses for this baptism is He "fell upon them" or "came upon them". This is not salvation - they were already saved. This is an empowering to be His witnesses Acts 1:8. He originally was with them, when they were with Jesus. He came "in them" in John 20:2. He came "on them" in Acts 2:3. Then in verse 4, they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[360watt]

The apostles and other believers who were with them seem to have received the indwelling Holy Spirit in John 20:22, where Jesus "breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit' ".
Then in Acts 2 they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5). The term the Bible uses for this baptism is He "fell upon them" or "came upon them". This is not salvation - they were already saved. This is an empowering to be His witnesses Acts 1:8. He originally was with them, when they were with Jesus. He came "in them" in John 20:2. He came "on them" in Acts 2:3. Then in verse 4, they were filled with the Holy Spirit.

Agreed Acts 2- they are already saved before when they received the Holy Spirit coming 'upon' them. They were empowered, not converted by the Holy Spirit's work here. Also, the church being added to at Jerusalem.. is the local Jerusalem church. This isn't 3000 new converts.. it's 3000 new church members!

 

[TomL]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven: “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4); for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun.

First Corinthians 12:12–13 is the central passage in the Bible regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit: “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (1 Corinthians 12:13). Notice that we “all” have been baptized by the Spirit—all believers have received the baptism, synonymous with salvation, and it is not a special experience for only a few. While Romans 6:1–4 does not mention specifically the Spirit of God, it does describe the believer’s position before God in language similar to the 1 Corinthians passage: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”

The following facts are necessary to help solidify our understanding of Spirit baptism: First, 1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states that all have been baptized, just as all been given the Spirit to drink (the indwelling of the Spirit). Second, nowhere in Scripture are believers told to be baptized with, in or by the Spirit, or in any sense to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This indicates that all believers have had this experience. Third, Ephesians 4:5 seems to refer to Spirit baptism. If this is the case, Spirit baptism is the reality for every believer, just as “one faith” and “one Father” are.

In conclusion, the baptism of the Holy Spirit does two things, 1) it joins us to the body of Christ, and 2) it actualizes our co-crucifixion with Christ. Being in His body means we are risen with Him to newness of life (Romans 6:4). We should then exercise our spiritual gifts to keep that body functioning properly as stated in the context of 1 Corinthians 12:13. Experiencing the one Spirit baptism serves as the basis for keeping the unity of the church, as in the context of Ephesians 4:5. Being associated with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection through Spirit baptism establishes the basis for our separation from the power of indwelling sin and our walk in newness of life (Romans 6:1-10; Colossians 2:12).
From Got?

Amen