All believers are baptized into The Body of Christ

[Doug Brents]

Ephesians 1:13 was already quoted, but of course you ignored it.
Other passages you mentioned refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit....which applies to all who are Christians.
If one has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit then he/she is not a Christian.

Eph 1:13 was not ignored. You are ignoring the truths that you don't want to hear.
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promised"
Again, Belief is not mental assent. "Belief" here comes from the Greek pistis which means faith. When we exhibit faith we are saved, not by simply mental assent. And 1 Pet 3:21 does not talk about the baptism with the Spirit. It specifically says that the water of the Flood is a precursor of the water of baptism which now saves us (not Spirit baptism).

I gave proof for it that you are continually ignoring.
So for you to claim it's not true is absurd.

Again, you are equating two things that are not the same. Yes, all who are in Christ have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a deposit of the future glorification at Judgement.
But the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which only occurred twice is not the same as the indwelling. Only the 120 in the room on Pentecost and those in the house with Cornelius have ever received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, Acts 11:17 doesn't erase it.
In fact, it FURTHER confirms they were already saved before their water baptim in that they were GIVEN the Holy Spiirt,

Look Fred, we keep going over and over the same things here. You want to see the baptism of the Holy Spirit (in fire and tongues) as being the same as the reception of the Holy Spirit's indwelling the hearts of all who are in Christ. These are not the same, but you cannot see that. So I am going to bow out and let you believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[Fred]

Eph 1:13 was not ignored. You are ignoring the truths that you don't want to hear.
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promised"Again, Belief is not mental assent.

Never claimed it was only mental assent.
In fact, I already pointed out the belief they had encompassed OBEDIENCE. See post 52 and post 54.
(I'll do it again now...)
Otherwise, they would not have been GIVEN the Holy Spirit - see Acts 5:32.

Look Fred, we keep going over and over the same things here.

No, we don't.
You keep dodging the passages I cited that show to have the Holy Spirit poured on a person means the same thing as being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Doug Brents]

Never claimed it was only mental assent.
In fact, I already pointed out the belief they had encompassed OBEDIENCE. See post 52 and post 54.
(I'll do it again now...)
Otherwise, they would not have been GIVEN the Holy Spirit - see Acts 5:32.

And again, to comply with other Scriptures, the obedience required to receive the indwelling (as opposed to miraculous wonders), repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and water baptism, had not yet been done. So the Holy Spirit in evidence here could not have been indicative of salvation. Also again, this was a unique event. There is no other conversion experience that even comes close to what happened here. All other conversion stories comply with the Scriptures mentioned above that state that salvation is the result of our obedience in repentance, confession of Jesus' name, and water baptism. For that reason, this event cannot be taken as a precedent setting event.

No, we don't.
You keep dodging the passages I cited that show to have the Holy Spirit poured on a person means the same thing as being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

I have not dodged any passage you have cited, but the passages you have cited do not show that the Holy Spirit's function is the same in all these cases. Yes, it is the same Spirit in all cases, but how He functions is dramatically different. The indwelling, which ALL who are in Christ have, is not the same as the miraculous wonders done by the Spirit which is what Cornelius received before he was baptized. In baptism he received the indwelling as promised in Acts 2:38, and as Jesus said in John 3:5.

 

[Fred]

And again, to comply with other Scriptures, the obedience required to receive the indwelling (as opposed to miraculous wonders), repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and water baptism,

Your opinion is once again noted.

There is no other conversion experience that even comes close to what happened here. All other conversion stories comply with the Scriptures mentioned above that state that salvation is the result of our obedience in repentance, confession of Jesus' name, and water baptism. For that reason, this event cannot be taken as a precedent setting event.

An assertion without proof.

I have not dodged any passage you have cited, but the passages you have cited do not show that the Holy Spirit's function is the same in all these cases. Yes, it is the same Spirit in all cases, but how He functions is dramatically different.

Another assertion without proof.



1. To have the Spirit "poured" on a person is the same thing as being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:17 = Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 1:5)
Acts 10:45 = Acts 11:16
Since all who are Christians have had the Holy Spirit "poured" on them (Titus 3:6) means all who are Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

2. The same "gift of the Holy Spirit" which proves they were saved in Acts 2:38 is possessed by the Gentiles in Acts 10:45 - before their water baptism.

3. These Gentiles "received the Holy Spirit" - "of ADOPTION" (Romans 8:15) before their water baptism.

That refers to someone who is saved, not unsaved.

You are very confused.

 

[Doug Brents]

Your opinion is once again noted.

No opinion stated. Biblical truth you won't accept.

An assertion without proof.

More Biblical truth you won't accept.

1. To have the Spirit "poured" on a person is the same thing as being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:17 = Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 1:5)
Acts 10:45 = Acts 11:16
Since all who are Christians have had the Holy Spirit "poured" on them (Titus 3:6) means all who are Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

2. The same "gift of the Holy Spirit" which proves they were saved in Acts 2:38 is possessed by the Gentiles in Acts 10:45 - before their water baptism.

3. These Gentiles "received the Holy Spirit" - "of ADOPTION" (Romans 8:15) before their water baptism.

That refers to someone who is saved, not unsaved.

You are very confused.

I have no confusion at all.

Acts 2:4 is the fulfillment of Acts 1:5, and it related to the fulfillment of Acts 2:17, and is also related to Acts 10:45 and 11:16. But these are not the same as Titus 3:6. Titus 3:6 relates to the indwelling, not miraculous gifts. The gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 is not the same as was received in Acts 10:45, else they would not have needed water baptism immediately after. If water baptism is an "outward display of an inward change" then the Holy Spirit coming on them was a much greater "outward display", and would have needed no other. Yet Peter immediately commanded that Cornelius be baptized in water. Why? To unite him with the saving power of Jesus' blood through the working of the Holy Spirit so that his sins could be removed.

 

[Fred]

No opinion stated. Biblical truth you won't accept.

More Biblical truth you won't accept.

Need much more than a you say so theology.

Acts 2:4 is the fulfillment of Acts 1:5, and it related to the fulfillment of Acts 2:17, and is also related to Acts 10:45 and 11:16. But these are not the same as Titus 3:6. Titus 3:6 relates to the indwelling, not miraculous gifts.

When those in Acts 2:4 were baptized with the Holy Spirit, it was at that moment they were placed into the NT Church. Equally true is when the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit they were placed into the NT Church - and that before their water baptism.
That is exactly what happens what the Bible also describes as the Holy Spirit being "poured" on a person (Acts 2:17; 10:45; Titus 3:6).
At that moment he/she is placed into the NT Church.

The gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 is not the same as was received in Acts 10:45,

The above is wrong.

In Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:45
1. The same Greek phrase
2. By the same author
3. In the same book
4. In the same context (the preaching of the Lordship and resurrection of Christ)

a. BDAG (3rd Edition): receive the Spirit as a gift Ac. 2:38; cp. 10:45 (dōrea, page 266).
b. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): In Ac. the Spirit is called the dōrea of God in 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17 (2:167, dōrea, Buchsel).

 

[Doug Brents]

Need much more than a you say so theology.

When does Acts 2:38 say forgiveness of sin is received? - When one repents and is baptized.
When does Rom 10:9-10 say one is saved? - When one believes and confesses the name of Jesus as Lord.
When does Acts 3:19 say that sins are wiped away? - When one repents.
Which one of these is more Scripture than the others? - NONE of them. Which means that all of them must be equally correct, which means that baptism is required to receive salvation.
Now, since Eph 4:5-6 says that there is only one baptism in the NT Church, which baptism is it that is being discussed in the above passages? 1 Pet 3:21 says that it is baptism in water. Acts 8:36 demonstrates that it was water baptism that was taught in the early Church as the baptism that saves.
This does not leave any room for another baptism (Spirit baptism) to be the point at which a person is saved.

When those in Acts 2:4 were baptized with the Holy Spirit, it was at that moment they were placed into the NT Church.

No, they were added to the Church when they were baptized in water after Peter's sermon (Acts 2:41).

Equally true is when the Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit they were placed into the NT Church - and that before their water baptism.

No, they were added to the Church when they were baptized in water after Peter's sermon (Acts 10:48).

The above is wrong.

In Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:45
1. The same Greek phrase
2. By the same author
3. In the same book
4. In the same context (the preaching of the Lordship and resurrection of Christ)

Same Spirit, different gift (1 Cor 12:4-11). Miraculous gifts given first in Acts 10:45 but not at all mentioned Acts 2, and forgiveness given in 10:48 and 2:38.

 

[Fred]

When does Acts 2:38 say forgiveness of sin is received?

I already addressed this.

You have nothing else, so you feel the need to go back to something I already addressed.
I know why. It's because your false teaching cannot be adequately defended.

 

[Doug Brents]

I already addressed this.

I did not ask you to address that. I answered the question for you FROM SCRIPTURE because I knew you would not answer the question correctly, and I did not want to wait for your false answer to the question.

You have nothing else, so you feel the need to go back to something I already addressed.
I know why. It's because your false teaching cannot be adequately defended.

But you are correct: I have nothing other than Scripture to support what I have said. But then, since God is the author of everything I have said here, I need no other support.

 

[Fred]

I did not ask you to address that.

Then there was no need for you to post it again.

I answered the question for you FROM SCRIPTURE

No, you didn't. You answered the question based on your edit teaching, so don't equate that with Scripture.

But you are correct: I have nothing other than Scripture to support what I have said.

See above.

But then, since God is the author of everything I have said here, I need no other support.

See above ...again.

 

[Fred]

Same Spirit,

Great. This proves Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him already possessed:
1. The Holy Spirit of promise (Acts 2:39; Ephesians 1:13)
2. The Spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15)

...before their water baptism.

 

[Fred]

Now, since Eph 4:5-6 says that there is only one baptism in the NT Church, which baptism is it that is being discussed in the above passages?

The baptism with the Holy Spirit.
See posts 4 and 5.

 

[Fred]

1 Pet 3:21 says that it is baptism in water.

Was Noah and his family sealed in the ark before the water of the flood came (Luke 17:27)?

 

[Fred]

When does Acts 2:38 say forgiveness of sin is received? - When one repents and is baptized.

You conveniently left out the part concerning receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (which expression is found in Acts 2:38) because the gift of the Holy Spirit (yes, the Holy Spirit Himself) was received by the Gentiles (Acts 10:45) before their water baptism (Acts 10:48).

 

[Doug Brents]

Then there was no need for you to post it again.

Indeed there was, because you seem to be twisting Scripture to fit your doctrine instead of adapting your doctrine to what Scripture says.

No, you didn't. You answered the question based on your edit teaching, so don't equate that with Scripture.

"Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Baptism, in water because this is a command that man has to do (not something the Holy Spirit does), results in forgiveness of sin. And an additional result of water baptism is that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is received.

Great. This proves Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him already possessed:
1. The Holy Spirit of promise (Acts 2:39; Ephesians 1:13)
2. The Spirit of adoption (Romans 8:15)

...before their water baptism.

No, it proves that the same Spirit was involved, not that He did the same thing.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit.
See posts 4 and 5.

Baptism "with" the Holy Spirit is not what happened in Acts 2:4 and 10:44. That was the baptism "of" the Holy Spirit and was limited to those two events. The baptism "with" the Holy Spirit is what happens during water baptism according to Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, and others.

Was Noah and his family sealed in the ark before the water of the flood came (Luke 17:27)?

Indeed he was, but he was not yet saved at that point. As 1 Pet 3:20 says, they were saved by being brought through the water.

You conveniently left out the part concerning receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (which expression is found in Acts 2:38) because the gift of the Holy Spirit (yes, the Holy Spirit Himself) was received by the Gentiles (Acts 10:45) before their water baptism (Acts 10:48).

No, I did not leave that part out. As I have said many times, because it is what Scripture says, we receive the Holy Spirit indwelling in our heart (the sign and down payment of our salvation) when we are baptized in water. The Gentiles with Cornelius did not receive the indwelling, but only the miraculous gifts, of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized in water.

 

[Fred]

you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Received by the Gentiles before their water baptism (Acts 10:45)

No, it proves that the same Spirit was involved, not that He did the same thing.

Baptism "with" the Holy Spirit is not what happened in Acts 2:4 and 10:44. That was the baptism "of" the Holy Spirit and was limited to those two events.

Incorrect. Both events were being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Your false distinction won't work.
It was a pathetic try, though.

Indeed he was, but he was not yet saved at that point.

When God sealed him in, he wasn't going to perish.
He was saved before and during the flood.

As 1 Pet 3:20 says, they were saved by being brought through the water.

Since the ark was never baptized (full immersion) it is not even a precise correspondence.

 

[Doug Brents]

You know, I love how you take snippets out of my comments and completely change what I said.

Received by the Gentiles before their water baptism (Acts 10:45)

The Spirit, yes. The indwelling guarantee of salvation, no.

Incorrect. Both events were being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Your false distinction won't work.
It was a pathetic try, though.

You are welcome to continue to argue with Scripture, but Scripture always wins.

When God sealed him in, he wasn't going to perish.
He was saved before and during the flood.

That is not the association that Peter makes. He says it was the passing through the water that saved Noah and the seven, just as it is the passing through the water that saves us today.

Since the ark was never baptized (full immersion) it is not even a precise correspondence.

Scripture doesn't say it was, nor were the Israelites fully immersed in the cloud or the fire when they left Egypt. But that is still the analogy that Scripture uses. Who am I to argue with Scripture?

 

[Fred]

The Spirit, yes. The indwelling guarantee of salvation, no.

What a pathetic distinction you make.
I'd like to see one Greek lexicon that agrees with you.

 

[Fred]

That is not the association that Peter makes. He says it was the passing through the water that saved Noah and the seven, just as it is the passing through the water that saves us today.

When they passed through the water they were in the ark.
Did the water save them or did being in the ark save them from the waters of the flood?

 

[Fred]

The Spirit, yes. The indwelling guarantee of salvation, no.

So these Gentiles:
1. Had the Holy Spirit fall on them (Acts 10:44).
2. Had the Holy Spirit poured out on them (Acts 10:45).
3. Had received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47).
4. Had been given the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17; 15:8).
5. Were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:17; 15:8; cf. Acts 2:4 'filled')

But they did not receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
What an absurd claim.