All believers are baptized into The Body of Christ

[Doug Brents]

False.
There is not "only one" baptism in the NT Church.
John, who was a member of the NT Church, still had a "baptism" to undergo - his death.

Ahh, so Eph 4:5-6 are no Scripture, according to Fred?

No, Paul says clearly that:
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you also were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
There are other baptisms mentioned, but none of them are the one that brings us into communion with God.

I never denied that. The substance is the baptism with the Holy Spirit, water is the picture.

Then if you agree that water must be a part of the baptism that brings us into communion with God, and the Holy Spirit participates in that baptism by removing our sin and uniting us with Jesus' death and resurrection (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14, Acts 2:38), then why are you arguing? "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" as you call it occurs during water baptism.

Proven wrong because the Gentiles were worshiping in the Spirit before their water baptism (Acts 10:46).

The Gentiles were speaking in tongues and worshiping God, but they did not yet have the indwelling of the Spirit. They had miraculous gifts, sure. But that is not a sign of salvation.

Correct, they were equal "in the church". Since they were in the church demonstrates they were already saved before their water baptism.

They were going to be, not were at that time. They were not yet in the Church because they had not yet been baptized into the Church (Gal 3:26-27, Rom 6:3, John 3:5).

Needed for obedience after salvation, not before salvation.

No, there are many signs of obedience that are stated to come after/flow out of having been saved. But there are three actions that Scripture says lead to being saved:
Repentance - Acts 2:38, 3:19
Confession of Jesus as Lord - Rom 6:9-10
Baptism - Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4
These are all stated to LEAD TO salvation.

You are saying one can receive the Holy Spirit and be lost.

Heb 6:4-6 says that it is absolutely possible for someone to receive the Holy Spirit and then lose their salvation. This is backed up by 2 Pet 2:20.

This contradicts the Bible in many places (John 14:17; 1 John 3:24; 4:13. etc.)

It is certainly possible to receive the Holy Spirit and lose Him again due to unrepentant sin.

By believing what they preached one was baptized with thr Holy Spirit. He comes as a result of their preaching and the acceptance of it by those who embrace it.

This only occurred one time (with Cornelius), and again is not a sign of his redemption. As with every other person who has every heard the Gospel preached, their sins are washed away upon being buried with Christ in (as we have already established) water baptism (Rom 6:1-4). Christ is the author of salvation to those who obey Him, not to those who believe (have mental assent) in Him (Heb 5:9).

Applies only to the Jews of that time period (cf. Acts 2:38).
Not one Gentiles is ever told to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit. Not one in the Church age.

In the "Church age" there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile. Every command to the Jews is applicable to the Gentiles, and equally those to the Gentiles are applicable to the Jews. There is only one NT standard of righteousness and salvation.

Which pictures the baptism with the Holy Spirit which all have upon entering the NT Church.

Water baptism is not a picture of what occurred when we entered the NT Church. It is the point at which we entered the Church (Gal 3:26-27).

Again, you have to deny the obvious to say the above when it comes to Corenlius and the other Gentiles with him,

No, you have to conflate the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to confuse the issue as you have.

 

[civic]

Ahh, so Eph 4:5-6 are no Scripture, according to Fred?

No, Paul says clearly that:
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you also were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
There are other baptisms mentioned, but none of them are the one that brings us into communion with God.

This is the parallel passage to Eph 4:5- the One Baptism is by the Spirit into one body. Notice the ONE BODY, ONE SPIRIT which links together the ONE BAPTISM is both passages. Its the Spirits baptism which is not by water.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[civic]

see this from Got ?


Ephesians 4:4-6 says, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." Since there are different "baptisms" referred to in the New Testament, it can be a bit confusing when we read about "one baptism." The word baptize always means “to submerge or immerse.” So, when baptism is discussed, it involves a person being totally submerged into something else. Baptism implies being "all in." It also implies that a change has taken place. Baptized people are changed people.

Generally speaking, there are two types of baptism: a physical (water) baptism and a spiritual baptism. One is done in water; the other is accomplished in the Holy Spirit.

Water baptism was commanded by Jesus for all of His followers (Acts 1:8). Colossians 2:12 says, "Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead." Being baptized with water does not save us; faith in the finished work of Christ saves us (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 10:9). But water baptism is an outward indication of an inward change. It is a wonderful picture of Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Being immersed in water symbolizes the cleansing of our hearts and the washing away of our sin by the blood of Jesus (Acts 2:38). Through water baptism, believers publicly proclaim their testimony that they have been born again by the grace of God.

Romans 6:3 speaks of a spiritual baptism: "Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" This spiritual baptism “into Christ” is performed by the Holy Spirit the moment a repentant sinner accepts the gift of salvation and is born again (John 3:5; Ephesians 2:18; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Acts 8:12). We respond to the Holy Spirit’s drawing and are born into God’s family (John 6:44; 1 Corinthians 6:19). By this "baptism," we are identified with the death and resurrection of Jesus; from then on, we consider ourselves "crucified with Christ" (Galatians 2:20). We choose to lose ourselves and be immersed in Him (Matthew 16:24), and the Holy Spirit makes that happen.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was promised by John the Baptist, who said that Jesus “will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire" (Luke 3:16). No one understood what John meant until after Jesus had ascended back into heaven (Acts 1:9). Jesus had promised the disciples that He would send "the Comforter" (John 14:26; 15:26; Luke 24:49). His followers were to wait in Jerusalem until the "promise from the Father" came (Acts 1:4). That promise came in Acts 2. The Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples, and they were never the same again. They were bold in their witness, empowered to perform miracles, willing to endure persecution, and all but one died a martyr’s death. The church had begun. Throughout the book of Acts, that baptism by the Holy Spirit was repeated as people came to know Jesus, both Jew and Gentile, and served to unify the church as the Jewish believers realized that the Holy Spirit was poured out on their Gentile brothers as well.

There are some differences of opinion among believers concerning the baptism of the Spirit. Some Christians believe Holy Spirit baptism is identical to being baptized into Christ and that it occurs at the moment of salvation, even if the believer is unconscious of it. Other Christians believe Holy Spirit baptism is to be equated with the filling of the Spirit and that often occurs after salvation—years later, perhaps—as the believer opens himself up to the Spirit’s control. Some believe that the baptism of the Spirit is always accompanied by signs (such as speaking in tongues), and others believe that such signs are unnecessary.

When Paul wrote to the Ephesian believers about "one baptism," he was reminding them that, regardless of their background or nationality, they all served the same Lord, shared the same faith, and had experienced the same baptism. He could be referring to water baptism; i.e., all believers have the same testimony of salvation and have been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Or he could be referring to Spirit baptism; i.e., all believers have been placed into the Body of Christ through the Spirit’s power. Either way, the emphasis is on unity among Christians. Verse 3 says, "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." The Holy Spirit works to unify believers and provides assurance that they are children of God (Romans 8:16; Ephesians 1:13-14). By reminding the church that they all had a similar testimony and that they were all partakers in the same Holy Spirit, Paul encouraged them to work together for the cause of Christ so that the message of redemption would continue to spread throughout the world (Matthew 28:19).

 

[Doug Brents]

This is the parallel passage to Eph 4:5- the One Baptism is by the Spirit into one body. Notice the ONE BODY, ONE SPIRIT which links together the ONE BAPTISM is both passages. Its the Spirits baptism which is not by water.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

And I would accept that if it were not for passages like John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:20-21, Eph 5:25-26, Acts 8:36, and others. These passages tell us that it is not Spirit baptism, but that the Spirit is taking action during water baptism. It is the Spirit doing the work (thus "by one Spirit"), but it is in the water that He takes action, not sitting in a pew at worship service, not sitting on your couch reading Scripture, not in passive mental assent.

 

[civic]

And I would accept that if it were not for passages like John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:20-21, Eph 5:25-26, Acts 8:36, and others. These passages tell us that it is not Spirit baptism, but that the Spirit is taking action during water baptism. It is the Spirit doing the work (thus "by one Spirit"), but it is in the water that He takes action, not sitting in a pew at worship service, not sitting on your couch reading Scripture, not in passive mental assent.

Water baptism just confirms what has already taken place by the spirit at regeneration, the new birth when we become saved.

 

[Doug Brents]

Water baptism just confirms what has already taken place by the spirit at regeneration, the new birth when we become saved.

That is a human construct, not a Biblical truth. Regeneration occurs during water baptism as 1 Pet 3:20-21, Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 state. It is by water and the Spirit that we enter into Christ, not water alone, not the Spirit alone.

 

[civic]

That is a human construct, not a Biblical truth. Regeneration occurs during water baptism as 1 Pet 3:20-21, Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 state. It is by water and the Spirit that we enter into Christ, not water alone, not the Spirit alone.

so the new birth, being born again come via water baptism ?

does one need to be fully immersed ?

 

[Fred]

Ahh, so Eph 4:5-6 are no Scripture, according to Fred?

Not AHHH, but DUHHH
Seeing your very first comment is a strawman I am not going to waste my time correcting your massive amounts false teaching - except the one below.

They were going to be, not were at that time.

Says you, but 1 Corinthians 12:28 teaches this gift of tongues is for those "in the church."

Hint: 1 Corinthians 12:28 is in the Bible.

 

[Doug Brents]

so the new birth, being born again come via water baptism ?

does one need to be fully immersed ?

What does baptizo in the Greek mean? It does not mean sprinkle, nor pour, nor skip across the surface.

• Baptizo: “To make a thing dipped or dyed. To immerse for a religious purpose” (A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, E.W. Bullinger).
• Baptizo: “Dip, immerse, mid. Dip oneself, wash (in non-Christian lit. also ‘plunge, sink, drench, overwhelm. . . .’)” (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Arndt and Gingrich, p. 131).
• Baptizo: “immersion, submersion” (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Grimm-Thayer, p. 94).
• Baptizo: “to dip, immerse, sink” (Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, Abbott-Smith, p. 74).
• Baptizo: “dip, plunge” (A Greek-English Lexicon, Liddell & Scott, p. 305).
• Baptizo: “consisting of the process of immersion, submersion and emergence (from bapto, to dip)” (Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, W. E. Vine).
• Baptizo: “immerse, submerge. The peculiar N.T. and Christian use of the word to denote immersion, submersion for a religious purpose” (Biblico-Theological Lexicon of the New Testament Greek, Cremer).
• Baptizo: “to dip, immerse; to cleanse or purify by washing” (The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Perschbacher, p. 66).
• Baptizo: “to dip, to immerse, to sink. . . . There is no evidence that Luke or Paul and the other writers of the New Testament put upon this verb meanings not recognized by the Greeks” (Greek and English Lexicon, Sophocles).
• Baptizo: “Bapto is the basic verb. It means ‘to dip in’ or ‘to dip under.’ It is often used of dipping fabric in a dye. Baptizo is an intensive form of bapto. From early times it was used in the sense of immersing” (Expository Dictionary of Bible Words, Lawrence O. Richards, pp. 100-101).
• Baptizo: “Baptizo, immerse” (Word Study Greek-English New Testament, Paul. R. McReynolds, p. 907).
• Baptizo: “The meaning of bapto and baptizo. bapto, ‘to dip in or under,’ ‘to dye,’ ‘to immerse,’ ‘to sink,’ ‘to drown,’ ‘to bathe,’ wash.'” (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, One Volume, ed. Geoffrey W. Bromiley, p. 92).
• Baptizo: “Baptizo 77x pr. to dip, immerse; to cleanse or purify by washing; to administer the rite of baptism, to baptize” (Greek and English Interlinear New Testament, William D. Mounce and Robert H. Mounce, p. 1028).

This is sufficient for us to see that there is little controversy as to the meaning of the term baptizo as found in the Koine (common) Greek language of the first century. The standard Greek lexicons reveal that the term means to dip, to immerse, to plunge, to sink, to submerge, to overwhelm, and other synonyms. In some of the references, the result of the immersion is given—to purify through washing.

Are half-measures accepted by God based on how He has related to man throughout the OT?​

 

[Doug Brents]

Not AHHH, but DUHHH
Seeing your very first comment is a strawman I am not going to waste my time correcting your massive amounts false teaching - except the one below.

No false teaching and no strawman in my post. You stated something completely contradictory to clear Scripture; I simply corrected your false statement.

Says you, but 1 Corinthians 12:28 teaches this gift of tongues is for those "in the church."

1 Cor 12:28 is listing a hierarchy of gifts in the Church. It is not stating that these gifts only exist in the Church. The Church did not begin until Pentecost, but Moses, Elisha, Elijah, and many of the other prophets did miracles (aka: signs and wonders). Signs and wonders are not exclusive to the Church.

 

[Fred]

1 Cor 12:28 is listing a hierarchy of gifts in the Church.

Thanks for your admission.

Finally.

It is not stating that these gifts only exist in the Church.

These NT gifts exist only in the church.

The Church did not begin until Pentecost,

Something I never denied.

but Moses, Elisha, Elijah, and many of the other prophets did miracles (aka: signs and wonders). Signs and wonders are not exclusive to the Church.

Stick with the New Covenant. That's the Covenant Corenlius and the other Gentiles with him were saved under before their water baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

Thanks for your admission.

Finally.

These NT gifts exist only in the church.

Something I never denied.

Stick with the New Covenant. That's the Covenant Corenlius and the other Gentiles with him were saved under before their water baptism.

Sorry, but when your false teaching needs correction and the example exists in the OT, then the OT (being still Scripture and profitable for correction, teaching, doctrine, etc.) is appropriate to bring into the conversation.

As I said, miracles are not the exclusive province of the Church. There is no passage in Scripture that says that the ability to do signs and wonders is reserved only for the Church in the NT age. The Holy Spirit can operate in any way He chooses because He is God. He choose to give signs (tongues and praise to God) to the Gentiles before they were saved as a sign to the Jews that they were to be added to the Church as equals with the Jews. This was not indicative of their salvation. They were immediately baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins as Acts 2:38 says those who would have their sins forgiven must.

 

[Fred]

He choose to give signs (tongues and praise to God) to the Gentiles before they were saved as a sign to the Jews that they were to be added

Your false teaching.
No Bible support for this.

to the Church as equals with the Jews. This was not indicative of their salvation.

1 Corinthians 12:28 teaches otherwise.

They were immediately baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins as Acts 2:38 says those who would have their sins forgiven must.

The forgiveness of sins takes place when one receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, and this took place with these Gentiles (Acts 10:45) before their water baptism (Acts 10:48).

Tongues is a NT gift for those "in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:28), but your false teaching comes bumbling along and says, "Hey, it's a NT gift for those even outside of the church."

Two choices:
1. Believe 1 Corinthians 12:28
2. Believe your false teaching

Not a tough decision.

 

[Doug Brents]

Your false teaching.
No Bible support for this.

1 Corinthians 12:28 teaches otherwise.

The forgiveness of sins takes place when one receives the gift of the Holy Spirit, and this took place with these Gentiles (Acts 10:45) before their water baptism (Acts 10:48).

Tongues is a NT gift for those "in the church" (1 Corinthians 12:28), but your false teaching comes bumbling along and says, "Hey, it's a NT gift for those even outside of the church."

Two choices:
1. Believe 1 Corinthians 12:28
2. Believe your false teaching

Not a tough decision.

You are reading into 1 Cor 12:28 what you want to see there.
"And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, and various kinds of tongues."
Paul here says that, in the Church, there is a hierarchy of gifts. First apostles, then prophets, then, then, then, etc. This is not saying that these are the exclusive province of the Church. Just that some gifts are higher/or more importance than other gifts in the Church.

But as pointed out before, many of these gifts were performed by those outside of the Church (throughout the OT). To say that miraculous works are a sign of salvation is to add words to Scripture that are not there.

So your choices are a little shortsighted. You can believe your interpretation of 1 Cor 12:28 and be wrong. Or you can believe what Scripture really says in so many places: salvation comes through faith in Christ. And faith in Christ requires obedience to His commands, not lip service, not intellectual assent, not asking Christ into our heart (which is not found anywhere in Scripture). And Christ commanded that those who believe His Gospel and obey it, will be saved. If you haven't obeyed the Gospel (Repent, Confess Jesus' name, and baptized in water) then your sins haven't been cleansed, you haven't been united with Christ, and you haven't been saved.

 

[Fred]

You are reading into 1 Cor 12:28 what you want to see there.
"And God has appointed in the church... tongues."
Paul here says that, in the Church, there is a hierarchy of gifts. First apostles, then prophets, then, then, then, etc. This is not saying that these are the exclusive province of the Church. Just that some gifts are higher/or more importance than other gifts in the Church.

The boldface above is mine, so maybe this time you can see that tongues are a NT gift in the Church.

But as pointed out before, many of these gifts were performed by those outside of the Church (throughout the OT).

Different time era. Like I said stick with the New Covenant for that is when the events concerning Cornelius and the Gentiles with him took place.

To say that miraculous works are a sign of salvation is to add words to Scripture that are not there.

New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (NIDNTT): When later in Caesarea the first pagans received the Holy Spirit and became members of the church, they also shared in the grace of worshipping and praising God "in other tongues", as again later the disciples of John the Baptist who became believers in Ephesus (Acts 10:46; 19:6) (3:1080, Word, H. Haarbeck).


I noticed you totally dodged "the gift of the Holy Spirit" - He was received by the Gentiles before their water baptism (Acts 10:45).

 

[Doug Brents]

The boldface above is mine, so maybe this time you can see that tongues are a NT gift in the Church.

The fact that the Holy Spirit did not give the gift of tongues before the NT era does not mean that it is strictly an "in the Church" gift. It is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and these gifts have been given since the beginning of time for specific purposes and for specific times.

Different time era. Like I said stick with the New Covenant for that is when the events concerning Cornelius and the Gentiles with him took place.

Sorry, but the existence of the Holy Spirit's giving of gifts in the OT is relevant to this conversation. It does not matter that it was not the the NT era. Time, and the dealings of God with man in a continuous series of events, not isolated, unrelated events. The OT is there for us to see how God (which includes the Holy Spirit) related to man in the past.

I noticed you totally dodged "the gift of the Holy Spirit" - He was received by the Gentiles before their water baptism (Acts 10:45).

Not sure what this means. I have never disputed that the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit was received by the Gentiles before their water baptism. But I dispute your conflation that this means they were already saved at that point. Your interpretation would cause an inconsistency in Scripture, because that would violate many other Scriptures (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4, John 3:5, Acts 8:36, and others).

 

[Fred]

The fact that the Holy Spirit did not give the gift of tongues before the NT era does not mean that it is strictly an "in the Church" gift.

Read 1 Corinthians 12:28.

It is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and these gifts have been given since the beginning of time for specific purposes and for specific times.

Different covenant so it doesn't apply in terms of these Gentiles, since their conversion took place during the New Covenant era.

Sorry, but the existence of the Holy Spirit's giving of gifts in the OT is relevant to this conversation. It does not matter that it was not the the NT era.

See above.

Not sure what this means. I have never disputed that the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit was received by the Gentiles

Not just the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit Himself.


These Gentiles possessed the Holy Spirit in equality to those in Acts 2:4.
Both events are an example of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
If these Gentiles didn't possess the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44-47) then neither did those in Acts 2:4.

The same holds true concerning those in Acts 2:38. They received "the gift of the Holy Spirit".
So too with these Gentiles in Acts 10:45.
If these Gentiles didn't possess the Holy Spirit at this time, then neither did those who obeyed what Peter commanded in Acts 2:38.

 

[Doug Brents]

These Gentiles possessed the Holy Spirit in equality to those in Acts 2:4.
Both events are an example of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
If these Gentiles didn't possess the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44-47) then neither did those in Acts 2:4.

The same holds true concerning those in Acts 2:38. They received "the gift of the Holy Spirit".
So too with these Gentiles in Acts 10:45.
If these Gentiles didn't possess the Holy Spirit at this time, then neither did those who obeyed what Peter commanded in Acts 2:38.

Look at Acts 2:38. What is the condition and what is the reward?
Repent and be baptized is the condition.
Receive the Holy Spirit is the reward.
We are not commanded to repent and be baptized BECAUSE we have received the Holy Spirit.

The Gentiles in Acts 10 did not receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and neither did those on Pentecost, when He came on Pentecost. The disciples already had the indwelling of the Spirit since God gave Him to them before He ascended (John 20:22). But they received power from the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

 

[Fred]

Look at Acts 2:38. What is the condition and what is the reward?
Repent and be baptized is the condition.
Receive the Holy Spirit is the reward.
We are not commanded to repent and be baptized BECAUSE

Acts 2:38
Receive the Holy Spirit after water baptism.

Acts 10:45
Receive the Holy Spirit before water baptism.

That is not the same order of events.

 

[Doug Brents]

Acts 2:38
Receive the Holy Spirit after water baptism.

Acts 10:45
Receive the Holy Spirit before water baptism.

That is not the same order of events.

Then there must be a difference between what the Holy Spirit is doing in the two events. That difference is between the indwelling and the miraculous signs. The indwelling is the result of water baptism. The miraculous gifts were a sign in the first century of the authenticity and the source of the message. In the case of Cornelius, it was demonstrative of the authenticity of his acceptability into the Church.