All believers are baptized into The Body of Christ

[Fred]

Then there must be a difference between what the Holy Spirit is doing in the two events. That difference is between the indwelling and the miraculous signs.

That's your assertion without proof. Both events speak of the Holy Spirit being received.

The indwelling is the result of water baptism.

No proof for this assertion in Acts 10.
They received the Holy Spirit IN EQUAILTY with those in Acts 2:4 and with those in Acts 2:38.

 

[Hosanna]

The New Testament does not reference two different baptisms of the Holy Spirit. A distinction between being baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ and baptism with the Holy Ghost for power does not exist. “With” or “by” is the same word in Greek, as is the word for “Spirit” or “Ghost.”

There is only one baptism and one Spirit.
4 [There is] one body and one Spirit—just as there is also one hope [that belongs] to the calling you received—
5 [There is] one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4:4–5

And that baptism occurs when a person trusts Christ and is baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
For by [means of the personal agency of] one [Holy] Spirit we were all, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free, baptized [and by baptism united together] into one body, and all made to drink of one [Holy] Spirit.
1 Cor 12:13

That baptism must be the experience of all Christians (new or old, carnal or spiritual) because the church at Corinth included all varieties of believers, but Paul says they all had the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Now this baptism took place whether the Christian knew it or not. It was a fact. The Holy Spirit placed that person into Christ and came to dwell in him. At that point the new believer got all the power he will ever get for a victorious Christian life). Now Paul prays that his spiritual eyes will be opened so he can see how much power he has been given. And this indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent. He cannot be taken from us. This ministry is quite a bit different from the leading ministry of the Holy Spirit, one which we don’t hear that much about.

19 Do you not know that your body is the temple (the very sanctuary) of the Holy Spirit Who lives within you, Whom you have received [as a Gift] from God? You are not your own,
20 You were bought with a price [purchased with a preciousness and paid for, made His own]. So then, honor God and bring glory to Him in your body. 1 Corinthians 6:19–20.

For His divine power has bestowed upon us all things that [are requisite and suited] to life and godliness, through the [full, personal] knowledge of Him Who called us by and to His own glory and excellence (virtue). 2 Peter 1:3

18.By having the eyes of your heart flooded with light, so that you can know and understand the hope to which He has called you, and how rich is His glorious inheritance in the saints (His set-apart ones),
19. And [so that you can know and understand] what is the immeasurable and unlimited and surpassing greatness of His power in and for us who believe, as demonstrated in the working of His mighty strength Eph 1:18–19

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [do not offend or vex or sadden Him], by Whom you were sealed (marked, branded as God’s own, secured) for the day of redemption (of final deliverance through Christ from evil and the consequences of sin). Eph 4:30

 

[civic]

You are reading into 1 Cor 12:28 what you want to see there.
"And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, and various kinds of tongues."
Paul here says that, in the Church, there is a hierarchy of gifts. First apostles, then prophets, then, then, then, etc. This is not saying that these are the exclusive province of the Church. Just that some gifts are higher/or more importance than other gifts in the Church.

But as pointed out before, many of these gifts were performed by those outside of the Church (throughout the OT). To say that miraculous works are a sign of salvation is to add words to Scripture that are not there.

So your choices are a little shortsighted. You can believe your interpretation of 1 Cor 12:28 and be wrong. Or you can believe what Scripture really says in so many places: salvation comes through faith in Christ. And faith in Christ requires obedience to His commands, not lip service, not intellectual assent, not asking Christ into our heart (which is not found anywhere in Scripture). And Christ commanded that those who believe His Gospel and obey it, will be saved. If you haven't obeyed the Gospel (Repent, Confess Jesus' name, and baptized in water) then your sins haven't been cleansed, you haven't been united with Christ, and you haven't been saved.

1-Maybe you can tell us when the disciples were saved.

2- show us in the Bible where any one of those 12 disciples were water baptized.

I won’t hold my breath on this one as I will run out of oxygen

 

[360watt]

1-Maybe you can tell us when the disciples were saved.

2- show us in the Bible where any one of those 12 disciples were water baptized.

I won’t hold my breath on this one as I will run out of oxygen

Yea the book of John doesn't speak much of water baptism and it's all about knowing you have eternal life

 

[Doug Brents]

That's your assertion without proof.

The proof is in what the Holy Spirit did in both cases.

Both events speak of the Holy Spirit being received.

Yes, they do. But as you so kindly pointed out, they two have the events in reverse order.

In Acts 10 the Holy Spirit comes in power, just as He did on Pentecost. But as demonstrated in John 20:22, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit had already been received by the disciples, so this is not what occurred on Pentecost, nor was it with Cornelius. The only thing that happened on Pentecost was that the disciples received miraculous gifts from the Holy Spirit, and this is the exact same thing that Cornelius received: not the indwelling, but miraculous gifts. The indwelling, as pointed out in Acts 2:38, is the result of baptism, which Cornelius had not received yet.

No proof for this assertion in Acts 10.

Correct. This is not asserted in Acts 10. It is stated in Acts 2:38.

They received the Holy Spirit IN EQUAILTY with those in Acts 2:4 and with those in Acts 2:38.

There is an equality of events between the Holy Spirit coming in fire in Acts 2:4 and in Acts 10. But these are not the same as promised in Acts 2:38.

 

[Doug Brents]

1-Maybe you can tell us when the disciples were saved.

2- show us in the Bible where any one of those 12 disciples were water baptized.

I won’t hold my breath on this one as I will run out of oxygen

There is no clear statement of when the 12 were saved, because there is no mention of them being baptized other than possibly by John the Baptist. It is presumable that they were baptized on Pentecost, but there is no evidence in Scripture of their baptism (except for Saul/Paul).

But this line of argument holds no water whatsoever, because in the presence of clear Biblical statements and example, the fact that the baptism of the 12 is not mentioned is irrelevant.

 

[Fred]

The proof is in what the Holy Spirit did in both cases.

Yes, they do. But as you so kindly pointed out, they two have the events in reverse order.

In Acts 10 the Holy Spirit comes in power, just as He did on Pentecost. But as demonstrated in John 20:22, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit had already been received by the disciples,

Not so.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.

When the Lord Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) it is to be understood prophetically to what took place in Acts 2:4 because:
a. Thomas wasn’t there when this event took place, but he was there with the others during Pentecost.
b. According to Luke 24:49 the Lord Jesus stated "I am sending" the Holy Spirit to them, whereas the second half of the passage points to this taking place at a later date.
Luke 24:49
And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you.
But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.

W. E. Vine asserts that what is described in John 20:22 "was symbolic of the Holy Spirit about to be sent in the world, and with the effect of their ministry of the gospel in the forgiveness of sins by the Spirit's power, or the retention of sins by the rejection of the message (vv. 23, 24). It was a prophetic act as well as symbolic" (John: His Record of Christ, page 183).
Wayne Grudem concurs: When Jesus breathed on his disciples and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22), it probably was an acted-out prophecy about what would happen to them at Pentecost. In the same context - in fact, in the verse immediately preceding - Jesus had told them something that would not happen until Pentecost: "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you" (John 20:21). But even though he said this before he had ascended into heaven, he did not really send them out to preach the gospel until the Day of Pentecost had come. Therefore, his words were looking forward to what would happen a Pentecost. It is best to understand the words in the next sentence, "Receive the Holy Spirit," in the same way - he was speaking in advance of something that would happen on the Day of Pentecost. On that day they would receive the new covenant fullness and power of the Holy Spirit, a much greater empowering of the Holy Spirit than what they had experienced before (Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, page 769, footnote 13).

The indwelling, as pointed out in Acts 2:38, is the result of baptism, which Cornelius had not received yet.

He didn't yet receive water baptism, but he already had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
To receive the gift of the Holy Spirit is to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Correct. This is not asserted in Acts 10. It is stated in Acts 2:38.

There is an equality of events between the Holy Spirit coming in fire in Acts 2:4 and in Acts 10. But these are not the same as promised in Acts 2:38.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:45
1. The same phrase
2. By the same author
3. In the same book
4. In the same context (the preaching of the gospel which includes the Lordship and resurrection of Christ; cf. Acts 2:21, 23-24; 10:36, 39-40)

1. BDAG (3rd Edition): receive the Spirit as a gift Ac. 2:38; cp. 10:45 (dōrea, page 266).
2. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (EDNT): The usage of dōrea in the NT is concentrated on the gracious gift which has already been given by God, namely, Christ (John 4:10), the Spirit (Acts 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17), or "righteousness" (Rom. 5:15, 17) (1:364, dōrea, G. Schneider).
3. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): In Ac. the Spirit is called the dōrea of God in 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17 (2:167, dōrea, Buchsel).
4. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: with an epexegetical gen. of the thing given, the Holy Ghost, Ac 2:38, 10:45 (dōrea, page 161).


These Gentiles were given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Acts 15:8
giving them the Holy Spirit
2 Corinthians 5:5
He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
1. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The Spirit whom God has given them is for Christians the guarantee of their full possession of salvation (1:475, arrabōn, Behm).

 

[civic]

Yea the book of John doesn't speak much of water baptism and it's all about knowing you have eternal life

Ditto if was so essential to salvation John never got the memo in his gospel or epistles. Neither did James or the author of Hebrews. It’s only mentioned by Paul a couple of times and Peter - no one else apart from the Synoptics and acts .

Not very essential at all but every NT book mentions the necessity of faith.

Things that make you go hmmmmm

 

[360watt]

There is the question of who is receiving the Holy Spirit in these passages... an individual or a group of already saved believers.

So in Galatians 5.. we read them being asked by Paul if they received the Spirit by the works of the law or the hearing of faith?

On the surface it looks like salvation in question... but look deeper and it's whole churches in Galatia receiving the Holy Spirit to become God's churches.

If a group is being addressed it's a group receiving the Spirit.

 

[Keoni]

The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven: “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4); for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun.

First Corinthians 12:12–13 is the central passage in the Bible regarding the baptism of the Holy Spirit: “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (1 Corinthians 12:13). Notice that we “all” have been baptized by the Spirit—all believers have received the baptism, synonymous with salvation, and it is not a special experience for only a few. While Romans 6:1–4 does not mention specifically the Spirit of God, it does describe the believer’s position before God in language similar to the 1 Corinthians passage: “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.”

The following facts are necessary to help solidify our understanding of Spirit baptism: First, 1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states that all have been baptized, just as all been given the Spirit to drink (the indwelling of the Spirit). Second, nowhere in Scripture are believers told to be baptized with, in or by the Spirit, or in any sense to seek the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This indicates that all believers have had this experience. Third, Ephesians 4:5 seems to refer to Spirit baptism. If this is the case, Spirit baptism is the reality for every believer, just as “one faith” and “one Father” are.

In conclusion, the baptism of the Holy Spirit does two things, 1) it joins us to the body of Christ, and 2) it actualizes our co-crucifixion with Christ. Being in His body means we are risen with Him to newness of life (Romans 6:4). We should then exercise our spiritual gifts to keep that body functioning properly as stated in the context of 1 Corinthians 12:13. Experiencing the one Spirit baptism serves as the basis for keeping the unity of the church, as in the context of Ephesians 4:5. Being associated with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection through Spirit baptism establishes the basis for our separation from the power of indwelling sin and our walk in newness of life (Romans 6:1-10; Colossians 2:12).
From Got?

Peter is plain that the outpoured Spirit is not a one-generation event —

(Act 2:38-39 ESV) 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

 

[Doug Brents]

Not so.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.

When the Lord Jesus said, "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) it is to be understood prophetically to what took place in Acts 2:4 because:
a. Thomas wasn’t there when this event took place, but he was there with the others during Pentecost.
b. According to Luke 24:49 the Lord Jesus stated "I am sending" the Holy Spirit to them, whereas the second half of the passage points to this taking place at a later date.
Luke 24:49
And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you.
But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.

There is no reason to understand this as purely prophetic. It certainly was looking forward to Pentecost, but Jesus sent them right then (in John 20:22). The fact that He told them to wait in Jerusalem until they were fully equipped (which was not until Pentecost) does not mean that they did not receive the Holy Spirit's indwelling presence immediatly. And as is clear in many other places that not everything that happened is written in Scripture. The fact that Thomas was not there means nothing. Jesus may have breathed on him when he was there a week later.

He didn't yet receive water baptism, but he already had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
To receive the gift of the Holy Spirit is to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit and miraculous gifts are related, but not synonymous. It is possible to have the indwelling (every Christ follower today has Him) and not have miraculous gifts (no one today has them). Similarly, it is possible to have miraculous gifts (Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Samson, and others) and not have the indwelling (since the indwelling did not begin until the NT).

The gift of the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:45
1. The same phrase
2. By the same author
3. In the same book
4. In the same context (the preaching of the gospel which includes the Lordship and resurrection of Christ; cf. Acts 2:21, 23-24; 10:36, 39-40)

This is all true, and it is usually the case that when this is the case the meaning of the phrases is the same. But not always. The Holy Spirit can be manifest in many ways (as previously said), and the fact that He gives miraculous gifts does not equate to His removing sin and making Holy. Cornelius did receive miraculous gifts, but he was not saved (forgiven, in the Church) until he was baptized in water shortly after Peter's sermon.

These Gentiles were given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.
Acts 15:8
giving them the Holy Spirit
2 Corinthians 5:5
He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

You stop a little short in your reading of Acts 15.
"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith."
When were the Gentile's hearts cleansed? When they exhibited their faith. And as has been pointed out and discussed at length elsewhere, faith is not passive. It is not something done "in the heart". Faith without action is dead and worthless and completely incapable of cleansing hearts (James 2:26).

 

[Fred]

The fact that Thomas was not there means nothing. Jesus may have breathed on him when he was there a week later.

Guess work

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit and miraculous gifts are related, but not synonymous.

Can't have one without the other.

Cornelius did receive miraculous gifts, but he was not saved (forgiven, in the Church) until he was baptized in water shortly after Peter's sermon.

Zero proof given.

You stop a little short in your reading of Acts 15.
"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith."
When were the Gentile's hearts cleansed? When they exhibited their faith. And as has been pointed out and discussed at length elsewhere, faith is not passive. It is not something done "in the heart". Faith without action is dead and worthless and completely incapable of cleansing hearts (James 2:26).

God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32) so it wasn't a so-called passive faith because they were GIVEN the Holy Spirit as a guarantee...before their water baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

Guess work

And I said that it was, but there is much "guess work" we have to do when putting together the History laid out in Scripture. We are not told everything, nor should we be. If we were told everything then there would be no need to have discussions like this. We would grow stagnant in the Word, and forget to study it continuously.

Can't have one without the other.

Sure you can. As I have said several times, the OT prophets had miraculous working power but not the indwelling. The Apostles had miraculous working power but not the indwelling when Jesus sent them out by twos during His ministry (Luke 9:1-2). The indwelling did not first occur until after Jesus was glorified.

Zero proof given.

Proof has been given, just not believed or accepted on your part.
Acts 2:38 - repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness - No repentance or no baptism, no forgiveness.
Mark 16:16 - he who believes and is baptized will be saved - No belief or no baptism, no salvation.
1 Pet 3:21 - water baptism now saves you - It is not Spirit baptism, but the Spirit working in water baptism that saves.

God gives the Spirit to those who obey Him (Acts 5:32) so it wasn't a so-called passive faith because they were GIVEN the Holy Spirit as a guarantee...before their water baptism.

Yes, God gives the indwelling of the Spirit to those who obey Him. But He gave miraculous signs to the Gentiles before they were saved for a specific purpose for a specific time.
What is the purpose of signs and wonders (miracles)? To prove the authenticity of the message and the source of the messenger.
There are two tests to discern if a messenger is from God, and his message is correct; one positive and one negative.
The positive test: does he perform miracles (Exo 4:9, Deut 13:1-3, John 3:2)?
The negative test: does his message conform to what Scripture says (Isa 8:20)?

And what does Acts 11:15-17 say?
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as He also gave to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”"
God gave the Gentiles the same gift (miraculous wonders) that He had given to the Jews on Pentecost. And this was a sign to those Jews that the Gentiles were acceptable to God for entry into the Church. It was not a demonstration of their salvation. It was not a sign of their being indwelt by the Spirit. It was a sign to the Jews to accept them into the Church, as is evidenced by Peter's statement, "Who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

 

[Fred]

Sure you can. As I have said several times, the OT

Different covenant - doesn't apply.

prophets had miraculous working power but not the indwelling. The Apostles had miraculous working power but not the indwelling when Jesus sent them out by twos during His ministry (Luke 9:1-2). The indwelling did not first occur until after Jesus was glorified.

Proof has been given, just not believed or accepted on your part.

I already wrote that they obeyed - if they didn't obey, they would have been given the Spirit (Acts 5:32)

But He gave miraculous signs to the Gentiles before they were saved for a specific purpose for a specific time.

A sig for those "in the church". I have 1 Corinthians 12:28 that backs me up on this. You have nothing.

And what does Acts 11:15-17 say?
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as He also gave to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”"
God gave the Gentiles the same gift (miraculous wonders) that He had given to the Jews on Pentecost.

The Jews at Pentecost were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Thus, these Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit was "poured" on them in Acts 2:17. The Holy Spirit was "poured" on these Gentiles (Acts 10:45).

In fact, all who are Christians have had the Holy Spirit "pour" on them. (Titus 3:6).

And this was a sign to those Jews that the Gentiles were acceptable to God for entry into the Church.

Not "for entry" but that they had ALREADY entered into the NT Church.

It was not a demonstration of their salvation.

Yes, it was.
They were GIVEN the Spirit as a guarantee of their future inheritance - just as with all other Christians.

It was not a sign of their being indwelt by the Spirit.

Zero proof for the baove.

It was a sign to the Jews to accept them into the Church, as is evidenced by Peter's statement, "Who was I that I could stand in God's way?"

Since God already saved them there should be no reason to refuse their water baptism.
God accepted them so the (Peter and the others)y should too.

 

[Doug Brents]

Different covenant - doesn't apply.

It does apply, even though it does not fit with your ideas. The fact that the indwelling did not begin until after Jesus was glorified shows that those through whom the Holy Spirit worked wonders were not indwelt by Him. Thus it is completely possible for one to "have the Holy Spirit" and not be indwelt. And as is said all through the NT, every person who is in Christ has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but not everyone who has the Holy Spirit has the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit.

I already wrote that they obeyed - if they didn't obey, they would have been given the Spirit (Acts 5:32)

When and how did Cornelius obey? He had not been instructed on what to do in what is recorded of what Peter said. They obeyed when, after Peter had commanded it, they were baptized into Christ (as Acts 2:38 says, so that they could receive forgiveness of sin).

A sig for those "in the church". I have 1 Corinthians 12:28 that backs me up on this. You have nothing.

Not at all. Acts 11:16-17 tells the reason they were given miraculous signs: to show the Jews that the Gentiles could join the Church.

The Jews at Pentecost were baptized with the Holy Spirit. Thus, these Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit was "poured" on them in Acts 2:17. The Holy Spirit was "poured" on these Gentiles (Acts 10:45).

In fact, all who are Christians have had the Holy Spirit "pour" on them. (Titus 3:6).

The Holy Spirit does not only work through those who are in the Church (Num 22:21-39, Ezra 1:1, ). And not all who are in Christ have had the same manifestation of the Spirit that was poured on them (1 Cor 12:4-11). Yes, all who are in Christ have the indwelling of the Spirit, but only in the first century did any have His miraculous works, and not all of them were in Christ at the time.

Not "for entry" but that they had ALREADY entered into the NT Church.

They could not have, because they had not yet confessed Jesus' name (Rom 10:9-10) nor been baptized (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Gal 3:26-29). Where there is no baptism, there is no entry into Christ who is the door to the Church (thus no salvation).

Yes, it was.
They were GIVEN the Spirit as a guarantee of their future inheritance - just as with all other Christians.

No, they were given miraculous gifts, not the indwelling which is the guarantee of Heaven. The indwelling is the result of water baptism, which they had not yet received.

Since God already saved them there should be no reason to refuse their water baptism.
God accepted them so the (Peter and the others)y should too.

God had not yet saved them. Yes, God had accepted them, but they were not yet saved at this point.

Remember, this is a unique event. It is not precedent setting because the event has not been repeated. There has never been another baptism of the Holy Spirit as occurred with Cornelius (for the Gentiles) and Pentecost (for the Jews). When this event happens again (I don't believe it ever will because there are no people who are not Jews or Gentiles), then we can argue whether the people involved are saved before they are baptized or not. But as these two events are completely outside of Biblical norm, they can not be taken as precedent setting events for the salvation experience today.

 

[Fred]

It does apply,

Nope. Different covenant.
Next...

When and how did Cornelius obey? He had not been instructed on what to do in what is recorded of what Peter said.

He believed (cf. Acts 10:43) the truths Peter presented. Remember, the Bible does not have to record everything Peter specifically said and everything that Cornelius did.

Not at all. Acts 11:16-17 tells the reason they were given miraculous signs: to show the Jews that the Gentiles could join the Church.

Your opinion is once again noted.

The Holy Spirit does not only work through those who are in the Church (Num 22:21-39, Ezra 1:1, ).

See my first comment.
Next...

Remember, this is a unique event. It is not precedent setting because the event has not been repeated. There has never been another baptism of the Holy Spirit as occurred with Cornelius (for the Gentiles) and Pentecost (for the Jews).

Yes, there has.

To have the Spirit "poured" on a person is when they are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 1:5) = Acts 2:17
Acts 11:16 = Acts 10:45

Since all who are Christians have had the Holy Spirit "poured" on them (Titus 3:6) means all who are Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Doug Brents]

Nope. Different covenant.

The fact that it occurred in a different covenant does not impact the validity of the reference. This was not a part, condition, or byproduct of any covenant. The thing that is significant to the covenant change is that under the OT there was no indwelling (so anything the Holy Spirit did was outside of the person), but with the coming of the NT the Holy Spirit now resides in the heart of those who are in Christ.

He believed (cf. Acts 10:43) the truths Peter presented. Remember, the Bible does not have to record everything Peter specifically said and everything that Cornelius did.

Absolutely the Bible does not record everything, but it does tell us what we need to know. And it says clearly that salvation occurs during water baptism, and as you have said, Cornelius was not baptized yet. So salvation had not occurred.

To have the Spirit "poured" on a person is when they are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:4 (cf. Acts 1:5) = Acts 2:17
Acts 11:16 = Acts 10:45

Since all who are Christians have had the Holy Spirit "poured" on them (Titus 3:6) means all who are Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is completely different from baptism with the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit has happened exactly twice in history. Baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs during water baptism.

You can believe what you want, but it does not change these Biblical truths.

 

[Fred]

And it says clearly that salvation occurs during water baptism, and as you have said, Cornelius was not baptized yet. So salvation had not occurred.

No proof for your assertion....none.

Here's proof that by being given the Holy Spirit they were saved and that before their water baptism.

Acts 15:7-8
the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believe in him, were sealed with the promised Spirit.

That the Gentiles were sealed with the promised Spirit before their water baptism demonstrates they were saved before their water baptism.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is completely different from baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Book, chapter and verse please.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit has happened exactly twice in history.

I know that is your mantra, but it is a total dodge on your part of the passages I cited at the end of post #56 that refute it.
You ran away and hid from them.
This isn't surprising.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs during water baptism.

This took place with Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him before their water baptism.

You can believe what you want,

I cited passages that you ignored.

but it does not change these Biblical truths.

The passages I cited are from the Bible.
Your so-called Biblical truths are nothing but your worthless opinion.

 

[Doug Brents]

No proof for your assertion....none.

Here's proof that by being given the Holy Spirit they were saved and that before their water baptism.

Acts 15:7-8
the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believe in him, were sealed with the promised Spirit.

That the Gentiles were sealed with the promised Spirit before their water baptism demonstrates they were saved before their water baptism.

If we assume that the Gentiles were saved (forgiven, added to the Church, resurrected with Christ, etc.) when the Holy Spirit came on them with miraculous power, that would violate several other Scriptures that state that these things occur during water baptism (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4, Eph 5:26, and others)(the one baptism in the NT Church(Eph 4:5-6)).

Total dodge on your part of the passages I cited at the end of post #56 that refute your ridiculous assertion.
You ran away and hid from them.
This isn't surprising.

I am not avoiding the passages you cited. You made the statement that, "all who are Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit." That is not true. The Gentiles in Acts 10, 11, and 15 are the only group that appears to have received the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit before they were saved, but that does not point to their being saved at that point. As I said, you are conflating baptism of the Holy Spirit and baptism with the Holy Spirit. They are different.

Acts 2:4 - they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues (not indwelling but miraculous power).
Acts 2:17 - prophecy that the Holy Spirit would be with all mankind, not just the special prophets and priests as it had been in the OT (as referenced before, but you refuse to accept).
Yes, Acts 11:16 = Acts 10:45, but that does not erase Acts 11:17 which tells us why it is significant that the Holy Spirit came on the Gentiles as He did on the Jews on Pentecost (to show the Jews that the Gentiles would be added to the Church when they were baptized into Christ).

 

[Fred]

If we assume that the Gentiles were saved (forgiven, added to the Church, resurrected with Christ, etc.) when the Holy Spirit came on them with miraculous power, that would violate several other Scriptures that state that these things occur during water baptism (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4, Eph 5:26, and others)(the one baptism in the NT Church(Eph 4:5-6)).

Ephesians 1:13 was already quoted, but of course you ignored it.
Other passages you mentioned refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit....which applies to all who are Christians.
If one has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit then he/she is not a Christian.

I am not avoiding the passages you cited. You made the statement that, "all who are Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit." That is not true.

I gave proof for it that you are continually ignoring.
So for you to claim it's not true is absurd.

Acts 2:4 - they were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues (not indwelling but miraculous power).
Acts 2:17 - prophecy that the Holy Spirit would be with all mankind, not just the special prophets and priests as it had been in the OT (as referenced before, but you refuse to accept).
Yes, Acts 11:16 = Acts 10:45, but that does not erase Acts 11:17 which tells us why it is significant that the Holy Spirit came on the Gentiles as He did on the Jews on Pentecost (to show the Jews that the Gentiles would be added to the Church when they were baptized into Christ).

Of course, Acts 11:17 doesn't erase it.
In fact, it FURTHER confirms they were already saved before their water baptim in that they were GIVEN the Holy Spiirt,
But again, you dodged Ephesians 1:13 and Acts 15:7-8 from my previous post that shows this.