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All believers are baptized into The Body of Christ
- Thread starter Ray
- Start date
Addressing the OP.
the Baptism "of" the Holy Spirit, and the Baptism "WITH" the Holy Spirit are not the Same.
101G.
There is no baptism of the Holy Spirit
The is only the baptism en the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by (en) one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Matt 3:11“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with (en) the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mark 1:8I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with (en) the Holy Spirit.”
Luke 3:16John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with (en) the Holy Spirit and fire.
It's all the same
The Greek verb baptizo the greek preposition en and the holy Spirit
Taking the last item first, it is clear that Paul is speaking about essentially the same kind of experience as did John, since he uses the same construction in the Greek, with the only difference being the addition of the word “one” [Spirit] and the past tense. He also uses the passive voice, but that is to be expected with the subject shifting from “He” [Jesus] to “we” [Christians]. If we conclude that Paul is speaking of the same experience as the other texts, then it should be clear that Spirit baptism could not be subsequent to conversion, since Paul says it is the means by which believers are incorporated into the body of Christ. It must happen at conversion, as was the case in Acts, as one of the constellations of Spirit blessings bestowed on believers at that moment—they are born of the Spirit (John 3:5), sealed in the Spirit (Eph. 1:13), and receive the gift of the indwelling Spirit (Rom. 8:9–11)1
1 Chad Brand, “Baptism With/in the Holy Spirit,” Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary (Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers, 2003), 170.
Paul’s only use of the metaphor refers to reception of the Holy Spirit at conversion: “For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink” (1 Cor 12:13 NIV). Paul refers to the believers’ common experience of conversion and connects reception of the Spirit to conversion (compare Gal 3:3; 2 Cor 1:21–22; Eph 1:13–14; Rom 8:9). Peter’s statement in Acts 11:15–16 refers back to the simpler expression “received the Holy Spirit” in the narrative of Acts 10:47. Thus, the unified usage of the metaphor “baptism in the Holy Spirit” in the Gospels and Acts fits with Paul’s use of the phrase to refer to the reception of the Holy Spirit at conversion.1
1 Douglas S. Huffman and Jamie N. Hausherr, “Baptism of the Spirit,” The Lexham Bible Dictionary (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2016).
dwight92070
Well-known member
#100 -TomL -The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven: “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4); for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun.
Dwight - So you're saying the 120 in the upper room (Acts 1:15), who were told to "wait for what the Father had promised ... but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now" had not received salvation prior to this? Especially the 12 who gave up everything for Him, and followed Him around Israel for over 3 years, preached repentance, performed miracles - and yet you say they didn't get salvation until the Day of Pentecost? Jesus even told Zaccheus, "TODAY salvation has come to this house." Luke 19:9. This was long before the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. So if Zaccheus was saved that day, how can you say that the 12 and the rest of the 120 in the upper room didn't receive salvation until Acts 2? I don't think that salvation and the baptism in the Holy Spirit are the same event.
Dwight - So you're saying the 120 in the upper room (Acts 1:15), who were told to "wait for what the Father had promised ... but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now" had not received salvation prior to this? Especially the 12 who gave up everything for Him, and followed Him around Israel for over 3 years, preached repentance, performed miracles - and yet you say they didn't get salvation until the Day of Pentecost? Jesus even told Zaccheus, "TODAY salvation has come to this house." Luke 19:9. This was long before the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. So if Zaccheus was saved that day, how can you say that the 12 and the rest of the 120 in the upper room didn't receive salvation until Acts 2? I don't think that salvation and the baptism in the Holy Spirit are the same event.
Not in the new covenant manner#100 -TomL -The baptism of the Holy Spirit may be defined as that work whereby the Spirit of God places the believer into union with Christ and into union with other believers in the body of Christ at the moment of salvation. The baptism of the Holy Spirit was predicted by John the Baptist (Mark 1:8) and by Jesus before He ascended to heaven: “For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit” (Acts 1:5). This promise was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4); for the first time, people were permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and the church had begun.
Dwight - So you're saying the 120 in the upper room (Acts 1:15), who were told to "wait for what the Father had promised ... but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now" had not received salvation prior to this? Especially the 12 who gave up everything for Him, and followed Him around Israel for over 3 years, preached repentance, performed miracles - and yet you say they didn't get salvation until the Day of Pentecost? Jesus even told Zaccheus, "TODAY salvation has come to this house." Luke 19:9. This was long before the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. So if Zaccheus was saved that day, how can you say that the 12 and the rest of the 120 in the upper room didn't receive salvation until Acts 2? I don't think that salvation and the baptism in the Holy Spirit are the same event.
the promise of salvation exist previous to Pentecost but the indwelling of the spirit was not experienced prior to this
Even now we still await a future aspect of our salvation the redemption of our bodies
dwight92070
Well-known member
Agreed Acts 2- they are already saved before when they received the Holy Spirit coming 'upon' them. They were empowered, not converted by the Holy Spirit's work here. Also, the church being added to at Jerusalem.. is the local Jerusalem church. This isn't 3000 new converts.. it's 3000 new church members!
I agree with sentence one and two, but not the rest. You say the 3000 were not new converts, but they were new members in the local Jerusalem church. It does not appear that there even was an established church at this time, much less any kind of membership list. Also there's nothing that Jesus said, or the apostles, that instructs His disciples to keep a record of who and how many "new members" are added to their local group. Even after the New Testament was completed, there was no command or instruction to make a "membership list". Still today, this is NOT a Biblical practice. In fact, whenever a church today insists on having such a list, there will always be problems arising from that.
We are members of the universal body of Christ. That's the only "membership" mentioned in the New Testament.
So I disagree. They were new converts. They were devout Jews (Acts 2:5) from over 15 different countries who had come to Jerusalem to obey the law of Moses by observing the Passover and then 50 days later, observing the day of Pentecost. Instead of making two trips to Jerusalem from their home countries, one on the Passover, and another on Pentecost, apparently they temporarily stayed in Jerusalem until Pentecost was over. After that they went back to their home countries, so they most likely did not live in Jerusalem.
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dwight92070
Well-known member
Not in the new covenant manner
the promise of salvation exist previous to Pentecost but the indwelling of the spirit was not experienced prior to this
Even now we still await a future aspect of our salvation the redemption of our bodies
So when Jesus "breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit' ", in John 20:22, the disciples did not actually receive the Holy Spirit dwelling in them?
dwight92070
Well-known member
The Greek word "en", which is number 1722 in the Strong's Concordance can be translated as: in, on, at, by or with. It also was translated into about 40 other words in the New Testament. A few examples: It was translated "about" 3 times, "among" 124 times, "through" 18 times, "under" 5 times, "over" 1 time, etc., etc.
So it doesn't help one's position to be dogmatic about what it means in any given verse. The one translation I did NOT see was "of".
So it doesn't help one's position to be dogmatic about what it means in any given verse. The one translation I did NOT see was "of".
I agree with sentence one and two, but not the rest. You say the 3000 were not new converts, but they were new members in the local Jerusalem church. It does not appear that there even was an established church at this time, much less any kind of membership list. Also there's nothing that Jesus said, or the apostles, that instructs His disciples to keep a record of who and how many "new members" are added to their local group. Even after the New Testament was completed, there was no command or instruction to make a "membership list". Still today, this is NOT a Biblical practice. In fact, whenever a church today insists on having such a list, there will always be problems arising from that.
We are members of the universal body of Christ. That's the only "membership" mentioned in the New Testament.
So I disagree. They were new converts. They were devout Jews (Acts 2:5) from over 15 different countries who had come to Jerusalem to obey the law of Moses by observing the Passover and then 50 days later, observing the day of Pentecost. Instead of making two trips to Jerusalem from their home countries, one on the Passover, and another on Pentecost, apparently they temporarily stayed in Jerusalem until Pentecost was over. After that they went back to their home countries, so they most likely did not live in Jerusalem.
Matt 16:18 is not of a universal, but local body, because it is local in Matt 18. Jesus isn't going to contradict what he has earlier established.
Then to Ephesians 'there is one body' ..yea..this doesn't have to mean 'only one'...because the church at Ephesus is the subject..who it's about. The unity spoken of is unity in the Ephesians church.
The 'general assembly ' in Ephesians is most likely the future local body as the New Jerusalem.
All believers will be one local body..but are not one now. All believers are a family of God..not a complete body in the right sense of the word.
Ecclessia or Ekklessia for 'church' is a congregation or assembly. That's how the meaning was held in NT times. A called out, from their homes, assembly or congregation.
The church at Jerusalem was just this.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Jesus was the personification of the New Covenant. If He says "salvation has come to this house", then it did. Zaccheus was saved in the New Covenant manner or any manner you want to call it. What you or I call it is unimportant. It's what Jesus calls it that is important. The same is true for the 120. They were saved already. Jesus affirmed their salvation several times. Take John 17:5-10 for example. He may not have used the word "salvation", but it obviously means the same thing. Many of them had been saved for over 3 years. But they had not been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Jesus had "breathed on them" and told them "Receive the Holy Spirit" in John 20:22. Did they? You better believe they did. If they didn't, then there would be no reason to breathe on them, would there? During their time with Jesus, the Holy Spirit was with them, but when He breathed on them, the Holy Spirit came into them and they received Him, as Jesus commanded them to, fulfilling John 14:16-17. Later, on the Day of Pentecost, they received what Jesus called being "baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) and Luke called it being "filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:4), obviously not the same as being saved. This is NOT just for "special people" as someone here sarcastically claimed. In fact, with that attitude, it's likely you won't receive this gift. God wont give you a gift if you ridicule it and dont want it. Take tongues for example. Many Christians mock that - fine, then they wont receive it. Other believers want ALL that God has for them. John the Baptist tells us that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. That does NOT mean that you don't already have the Holy Spirit in you. You received Him when the Holy Spirit baptized you into the body of Christ and you were made to drink of one Spirit, so obviously He is in you. 1 Corinthians 12:13- this being synonymous with salvation.
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That is the same baptismJesus was the personification of the New Covenant. If He says "salvation has come to this house", then it did. Zaccheus was saved in the New Covenant manner or any manner you want to call it. What you or I call it is unimportant. It's what Jesus calls it that is important. The same is true for the 120. They were saved already. Jesus affirmed their salvation several times. Take John 17:5-10 for example. He may not have used the word "salvation", but it obviously means the same thing. Many of them had been saved for over 3 years. But they had not been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Jesus had "breathed on them" and told them "Receive the Holy Spirit" in John 20:22. Did they? You better believe they did. If they didn't, then there would be no reason to breathe on them, would there? During their time with Jesus, the Holy Spirit was with them, but when He breathed on them, the Holy Spirit came into them and they received Him, as Jesus commanded them to, fulfilling John 14:16-17. Later, on the Day of Pentecost, they received what Jesus called being "baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) and Luke called it being "filled with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:4), obviously not the same as being saved. This is NOT just for "special people" as someone here sarcastically claimed. In fact, with that attitude, it's likely you won't receive this gift. God wont give you a gift if you ridicule it and dont want it. Take tongues for example. Many Christians mock that - fine, then they wont receive it. Other believers want ALL that God has for them. John the Baptist tells us that Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. That does NOT mean that you don't already have the Holy Spirit in you. You received Him when the Holy Spirit baptized you into the body of Christ and you were made to drink of one Spirit, so obviously He is in you. 1 Corinthians 12:13- this being synonymous with salvation.
The phrase wherever found includes the word baptize, the greek preposition en, and the Spirit or the holy Spirit
Matt 3:11“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with (en) the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mark 1:8I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with (en)the Holy Spirit.”
Luke 3:16John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with (en)the Holy Spirit and fire.
John 1:33I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with (en)the Holy Spirit.’
1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by (en) one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.