A Personal Reflection on the Trinity and Salvation

[brightfame52]

Your argument is too narrow as it requires Joseph be God too.

Not by nature, no man is good and righteous by nature Rom 3 10-12

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

When Scripture does declare someone good or righteous it's because Christ salvation work has been applied to them.

 

[Runningman]

Not by nature, no man is good and righteous by nature Rom 3 10-12

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

When Scripture does declare someone good or righteous it's because Christ salvation work has been applied to them.

Then that applies to Jesus too. So that proves my point. Want Biblical proof that Jesus actually had to develop spiritually?

If we agree that Jesus is Immanuel, then Isaiah also said that Immanuel needed time to know enough to reject evil and choose good. That isn't a description of God.

Isaiah 7
14Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgine will be with child and give birth to a son, and will call Him Immanuel. 15By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good, He will be eating curds and honey.

 

[brightfame52]

Then that applies to Jesus too

No it doesn't. The elect are made righteous by His obedience Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[mikesw]

I no longer hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. For a time, I believed it was essential—something that had to be accepted without question. But through study, prayer, and reflection, I stepped away from that framework. Too often, I’ve seen division and hostility arise over this doctrine, and I believe such conflict misses the heart of the gospel.

Certainly there is no doctrinal test to be justified in Christ. People can hear the Shepherd's voice and go to that voice with very little knowledge about him. And people can have wrong doctrines. I do think there is a tendency of a believer to accept true ideas but this can always be obscured by their own thinking or those around them. So it still remains important that groups know the divinity of Christ but it is not quite the basis for judging whether they are of Christ or not.

That said, I have deep love and respect for those who affirm the Trinity. My disagreement isn’t a rejection of them—it’s a call to refocus. Because ultimately, salvation doesn’t come through doctrinal precision. It comes through faith in Yeshua, the one whom God has sent.


Jesus said, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3). The emphasis is clear: knowing the Father and believing in the Son is the foundation of eternal life.


Paul echoes this in Romans: “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved” (Romans 10:9). No creed or theological system can replace that simple, powerful truth.

Of course Rom 10:9 speaks of Joel 2:32 where Lord is Yahweh. So we return full cycle to Christ's divinity.

 

[TomL]

Colossians 1:15 puts Jesus in the same category as the creation. No matter how you want to spin it, all firstborns have something in common, they are born and not greater than or equal to their father in Jewish culture. God was never born Tom. Do you agree?

Jesus taught that God is greater than him. They aren't equals.

John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

Read Col again

Colossians 1:15–20 (LEB) — 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, 18 and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything, 19 because he was well pleased for all the fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by making peace through the blood of his cross, through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

and what did you do with this

John 1:1 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 (NASB95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28 (NASB95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Matthew 1:23 (LEB) — 23 “Behold, the virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Emmanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Romans 9:5 (LEB) — 5 to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 1:3 (LEB) — 3 who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of power. When he had made purification for sins through him, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Hebrews 1:8 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom.

2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 (LEB) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

1 Timothy 3:16 (LEB) — 16 And most certainly, great is the mystery of godliness: Who was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the Gentiles, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

Philippians 2:6 (LEB) — 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,

Isaiah 7:14 (LEB) — 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’

Isaiah 9:6 (LEB) — 6 For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

A father can be greater than his son but that does not make them different types of beings

 

[Victoria]

So..if you reject the Trinity..that's no minor issue..it strikes at the heart of salvation if Jesus is anything less than fully God.

Oooo... MIC drop! Well said, 360watt! Amen!!!

 

[Victoria]

Which is the central problem with saying a mortal man can have the abilities Jesus had..is that's a kind of New Age philosophy of mortal man being little gods or like God.

New Age philosophy has indeed crept into the church. Word of Faith/Prosperity movement, little gods.

A pastor who used to be heavily involved in the New Age said it's actually Hinduism in disguise, wrapped in a Christian bow.
He said they're actually Charlatan's. The Bible warns of hirelings, wolves in sheep's clothing, false teachers, etc.

 

[360watt]

New Age philosophy has indeed crept into the church. Word of Faith/Prosperity movement, little gods.

A pastor who used to be heavily involved in the New Age said it's actually Hinduism in disguise, wrapped in a Christian bow.
He said they're actually Charlatan's. The Bible warns of hirelings, wolves in sheep's clothing, false teachers, etc.

Yes I took part in New Age beliefs in the early 2000s. We didn't call it New age but it was the same being 'one with the Divine' energy healing, mantras etc..

No basis of truth. Shifting foundations.

 

[Victoria]

Yes I took part in New Age beliefs in the early 2000s. We didn't call it New age but it was the same being 'one with the Divine' energy healing, mantras etc..

No basis of truth. Shifting foundations.

Well, praise the Lord, & welcome to the Body of Christ!

Have you ever heard of Melissa Dougherty? She had done a recent video on YouTube, explaining the difference between
New Age, & New Thought. New Age is external, New Thought is internal. Many can be a combination of both.

I've learned a lot from her, given I knew someone at the time who I believe dabbled in both. She practices Reiki, sage, etc.
She calls herself a Christian Mystic.

 

[360watt]

Well, praise the Lord, & welcome to the Body of Christ!

Have you ever heard of Melissa Dougherty? She had done a recent video on YouTube, explaining the difference between
New Age, & New Thought. New Age is external, New Thought is internal. Many can be a combination of both.

I've learned a lot from her, given I knew someone at the time who I believe dabbled in both. She practices Reiki, sage, etc.
She calls herself a Christian Mystic.

Okay..thanks.. I believe i was converted before going into the New Age stuff..but didn't know much about the foundation of the Christian faith. I learned Apologetics stuff at uni and then really got serious about the faith.

 

[Victoria]

Okay..thanks.. I believe i was converted before going into the New Age stuff..but didn't know much about the foundation of the Christian faith. I learned Apologetics stuff at uni and then really got serious about the faith.

Oh, that's good. Steven Bancarz is one who got into the New Age, like astral projection. Scary stuff.

 

[360watt]

Oh, that's good. Steven Bancarz is one who got into the New Age, like astral projection. Scary stuff.

Yes, I think a central thing to that is that the spiritual realm can be manipulated by the person..rather than an objective spiritual realm that the person is subject to.

So .. someone could think they are 'one with a tree '.. but the tree itself is just a natural object with nothing spiritual in it.

Or the story of a group of blindfolded people each touching an elephant. Each says what they think it is.. like .. they touch the tail and say..oh this feels like a braided rope..and another touches the head and they think its a horse head. Hinduistic beliefs and New Age would say they are all right.

They miss the fact of the object they are actually touching is an elephant!

 

[Victoria]

Yes, I think a central thing to that is that the spiritual realm can be manipulated by the person..rather than an objective spiritual realm that the person is subject to.

So .. someone could think they are 'one with a tree '.. but the tree itself is just a natural object with nothing spiritual in it.

Or the story of a group of blindfolded people each touching an elephant. Each says what they think it is.. like .. they touch the tail and say..oh this feels like a braided rope..and another touches the head and they think its a horse head. Hinduistic beliefs and New Age would say they are all right.

They miss the fact of the object they are actually touching is an elephant!

I've heard one say: "I doubt, therefore... I am."

Another said: "That's so profound!"

I replied: "I doubt, therefore... I'm doubtful?"

Crickets

 

[Runningman]

Read Col again

Colossians 1:15–20 (LEB) — 15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, 16 because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, 17 and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, 18 and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything, 19 because he was well pleased for all the fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by making peace through the blood of his cross, through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

and what did you do with this

John 1:1 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 (NASB95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28 (NASB95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Matthew 1:23 (LEB) — 23 “Behold, the virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Emmanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Romans 9:5 (LEB) — 5 to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ according to human descent, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Titus 2:13 (LEB) — 13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 1:3 (LEB) — 3 who is the radiance of his glory and the representation of his essence, sustaining all things by the word of power. When he had made purification for sins through him, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Hebrews 1:8 (LEB) — 8 but concerning the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of righteous is the scepter of your kingdom.

2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 (LEB) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, in order that we may know the one who is true, and we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.

1 Timothy 3:16 (LEB) — 16 And most certainly, great is the mystery of godliness: Who was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the Gentiles, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

Philippians 2:6 (LEB) — 6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,

Isaiah 7:14 (LEB) — 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’

Isaiah 9:6 (LEB) — 6 For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

A father can be greater than his son but that does not make them different types of beings

Jesus is the image of the invisible God, thereby proving he isn't God:

Colossians 1​

15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.​

The only God is invisible:

​

1 Timothy 1​

17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.​

The simplicity needed to knock your arguments down is a testament of how malformed they are because you misrepresent the context of what you're presenting. This is how I can easily just show the context to disprove your unorthodox assertions.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus is the image of the invisible God, thereby proving he isn't God:

Colossians 1​

15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.​

The only God is invisible:

​

1 Timothy 1​

17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.​

The simplicity needed to knock your arguments down is a testament of how malformed they are because you misrepresent the context of what you're presenting. This is how I can easily just show the context to disprove your unorthodox assertions.

He is God but he would not be seen among man except through the incarnation. So instead of rejecting his divinity, you have demonstrated the need for the additional humanity. Thanks for the contribution to the knowledge of the Triune God.

Then you call his universally recognized doctrine as unorthodox. Really?

 

[Runningman]

He is God but he would not be seen among man except through the incarnation. So instead of rejecting his divinity, you have demonstrated the need for the additional humanity. Thanks for the contribution to the knowledge of the Triune God.

Then you call his universally recognized doctrine as unorthodox. Really?

Colossians 1:15 and 1 Timothy 1:17 prove that Jesus isn't God. God is invisible, Jesus is not invisible. Laugh now, cry later. It's up to you.

 

[mikesw]

Colossians 1:15 and 1 Timothy 1:17 prove that Jesus isn't God. God is invisible, Jesus is not invisible. Laugh now, cry later. It's up to you.

Jesus is not just God. That is why they could see Jesus walking among them. And in the very scholarly language: duhhhh.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is not just God.

Oh, so "Jesus is not just God?" What do you mean?

That is why they could see Jesus walking among them. And in the very scholarly language: duhhhh.

??

1 Timothy 1:17 says the only God is invisible. Jesus was not invisible after he was born, after he was resurrected and taken to heaven, and not invisible when God brings him back.

 

[mikesw]

Oh, so "Jesus is not just God?" What do you mean?

Maybe you heard that Jesus is also human. If Jesus was just God, in the scope of what you posted, he would remain invisible.

1 Timothy 1:17 says the only God is invisible. Jesus was not invisible after he was born, after he was resurrected and taken to heaven, and not invisible when God brings him back.

Duh. Jesus was born as human so he no longer is invisible. You have everything backwards.

 

[Runningman]

Maybe you heard that Jesus is also human. If Jesus was just God, in the scope of what you posted, he would remain invisible.

Jesus is a human, but Scripture states God isn't also a human in Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9, etc.

Also, your comments create a problem for the hypostatic union which makes Jesus out to be a kind of visible vessel for God rather than the invisible God Himself. That isn't a hypostatic union, or trinitarianism, that's modalism.

Duh. Jesus was born as human so he no longer is invisible. You have everything backwards.

Jesus is no longer invisible, but God is still invisible. Gotcha. You may not have realized what you just admitted to, but I'm sure you'll catch it soon.