Peterlag
Active Member
Yeah, well... they have some serious trinity leaning translations that when I straighten the verse out, they tell me I'm changing the Bible.
Your Views on The Trinity
- Thread starter Cyrus
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Runningman
Active Member
Yes I see, you do not. You reject clear and explicit Scripture because it debunks trinitarianism.
Care to explain away Jesus having a temporary reign and being eternally subject to God?
Paul tells you exactly what happens after Jesus is done at the right hand of God. His reign there will end and he will be eternally subject to God along with everyone else.
1 Corinthians 15
24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
Maybe you need to consider the feedback.
If you could find a good argument for your view and convince capable scholars and theologians, you might have a bit of basis to accept your new, novel, gnostic belief. No one on his own should be pushing his private doctrines on people when they are so contrary to sound teaching.
Runningman
Active Member
Can you say Amen to the below passage?
1 Corinthians 15
24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
What is wrong with expressing that? At best, your point might be to revise the way we look at the Triune God.
You have to deny the pre-existent One who became flesh, as found in John 1.
If you could find a good argument for your view and convince capable scholars and theologians, you might have a bit of basis to accept your new, novel, gnostic belief. No one on his own should be pushing his private doctrines on people when they are so contrary to sound teaching.
Runningman
Active Member
A "triune god" isn't God according to the Bible. Begin with agreeing with what the Bible says rather than hunting for ways to justify your side doctrine about who feel the Christian God is.
synergy
Active Member
Now that we obliterated your ignorance and disdain of how the Bible understands and uses the word "until", let's proceed to eliminate your disdain of Christ's Eternal Reign with the Father.
In 1 Cor 15:24-26, you are confusing Jesus' functional role in the redemption order with ontological subordination (inferiority of nature), which the Scripture everywhere denies. Paul is describing the completion of Jesus’s Mission, after which the perfected kingdom is presented to the Father. The “until” in 1 Cor 15:25 does not imply cessation of reign (just as Christ “reigns until” all enemies fall, but does not stop reigning afterward), but rather indicates the milestone after which His reign is fully consummated. Likewise, the Son “being subjected” in v. 28 refers to the Son’s restored, harmonious filial order after the conquest of evil, not to His nature becoming subordinate. It is the same kind of “subjection” the Son eternally has according to His divine sonship (Jn 5:19–23) and the same relational order in which every knee bows to Him as YHWH (Phil 2:10–11; Isa 45:23). Paul directly contradicts your Arian interpretation by teaching that after the end, the throne of God and of the Lamb is one (Rev 22:1), meaning the Father and the Son share one single divine throne forever. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 15:24–28 describes not the termination of the Son’s kingship, but the final victory of His mediatorial reign, after which His eternal divine kingship continues visibly united with the Father’s, exactly as Scripture declares from beginning to end.
In fact, Scripture repeatedly and explicitly states that Christ’s throne is Eternal, not temporary: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever” (Ps 45:6-7, applied directly to Jesus in Heb 1:8); “His kingdom will have no end” (Lk 1:33); “They will reign for ever and ever” with the Lamb (Rev 22:3–5). In Hebrews 1, the Father Himself declares the Son’s throne eternal precisely to show His superiority to all creation (Heb 1:8–12), which obliterates any and every Arian heretical interpretation.
Peterlag
Active Member
Trinitarians often say we need to believe...
Jesus is God for salvation and yet no Scripture claims that.
I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.
I would like one verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.
I would like one verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
I would like one verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
I would like one verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
I would like one verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
I would like one verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.
Written by: @amazing grace
Edited by: Me
Also posted on Christian Facebook sites
Jesus is God for salvation and yet no Scripture claims that.
I would like one verse that actually calls Jesus God the Son.
I would like one verse that actually says Jesus is a god-man.
I would like one verse that actually says we must believe Jesus is God.
I would like one verse that actually says we must believe God is three persons.
I would like one verse out of approximately 31,102 Bible verses that says God is Triune.
I would like one verse that actually says Jesus is both 100 percent God and 100 percent man.
I would like one verse that actually says Jesus is God because if it's that important of a doctrine it should have been plainly and clearly taught by someone somewhere.
Written by: @amazing grace
Edited by: Me
Also posted on Christian Facebook sites
Runningman
Active Member
The only eternal throne Jesus has is over the house of Jacob.
Luke 1
33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”
The throne in context of Hebrews 1:8 is temporary. Just as the writer clarified in Hebrews 1:13 a few verses later "Sit at my right hand until..." Paul went on to describe a dethroned Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15 when he is made subject to God after his enemies have been made a footstool for his feet.
I also am still laughing at you. I will never let you live up your purely fictional arguments about the word "only" and "until."
You deny God and Christ in what you say. You confuse scripture too.
You cannot even make a coherent argument sufficient to prove your belief system.
Peterlag
Active Member
The following comments are what came back when I posted this data on the Internet...
I find Trinitarians either stupid or dishonest. Which is it...
Take for example John 8:58...Jesus said "ego eimi" .... God didn't. The Greek word in Exodus 3:14 is not the same word Jesus used in John 8:58. Jesus said “ego eimi” in John 8:58. Not “ego eimi ho eimi” which means "I am the One who is" as Exodus 3:14 is written in the Septuagint. The two statements are very different. The Greek phrase in John does mean "I am" which was a common phrase in the New Testament and isn't the name of anyone. The disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ at the last supper. They said literally "Not I am, Lord" Matthew 26:22, 25. No one would say the disciples were trying to deny they were God because they were using the phrase "Not I am." The word "I am" was a common way of designating oneself and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus' "I am" statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. And it is not. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham that Jesus must be God. Jesus figuratively existed in Abraham's time. He did not actually physically exist as a person, but rather he existed in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man.
1.) Cognitive bias, reinforced by fear. A good 100 arguments against the trinity don't amount to anything while they are clinging to the tradition that frames their worldview. They have been taught to fear the loss of the Trinity as if it would rip the very soul out of their body. The church has built their salvation and its own reputation upon this foundation. They need to see that the alternative to the trinity isn't oblivion but true hope, and individual freedom to understand.
2.) Maybe both! LOL I think a lot of them don't know any better because they don't want to know better. They don't care if they have the truth. Many of them are brainwashed. Too lazy to study God's word. They also fear believing the truth because they are going to lose their friends, church and family. There is persecution involved and they can't handle that.
3.) I think the Trinitarians are grasping at straws. They hear the words Father Son and Holy Spirit and say there's proof of the Trinity!
4.) I find that they are a little of both.
5.) The biblical term would be a "fool". Also Peter makes it perfectly clear that they are untaught and unstable - ie - uneducated and lacking in reason. Paul states clearly that they preach a false gospel.
6.) Maybe not stupid or dishonest. Maybe conditioned / groomed / brainwashed. I feel sorry for them, and often think about how to get them to see the truth.
7.) Sometimes I feel sorry for them too. However, it makes me angry to see people teaching the trinity. They are pumping it down people's throats like never before. There are far more lies concerning the trinity than I have ever seen before. They come up with new lies all the time. While we are seeing more and more truths that Jesus is not God, the devil is coming up with more lies.
8.) Only through prayer may they gain understanding of what got lost through translations and removal. That removal helped propagate the man-made doctrine of the trinity.
9.) They are not stupid, I assure you, but very dishonest!
10.) I think it could be either, but there is a third option: spiritual blindness.
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Do you believe that Jesus does not have power before His ascension Runningman?
As Jesus emptied Himself the form of God and take the form of a servant in the likeness of men and obedient to the Father even death on the cross, a demonstration of Jesus's voluntary submission to the Father's will and a reflection of His human limitations during His earthly ministry. While Jesus is fully God, He was in the human form, and this human aspect did not include the omniscience of the Father regarding the timing of His return.
And as Jesus said in Acts 1:7 that there are certain things that it is not for the followers to know times and season that the Father had fixed by His own authority.
Act 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
Jesus prepared a place for those righteous who died and rose again, as He said "I will come again and receive you to Myself.
John 14:3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
Another opinion from one apologist that had never presented evidence to prove even their main belief.
Unitarian camps I believe are the most misled denomination, without Strong Concordance, Bible lexicons that define Bible words what it means at the time of it's usage. No Hebrew or Greek reference quoted to support a point.
Heavy reliance to paraphrase Bible translations the product of the translators flow of thoughts.
I always try to quote and understand the Bible according to what is written, so that our camp will not be also counted as arrogant.
1Co 4:6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.
As basis of what the Bible had written, Unitarians should also understand not to exceed to what is written.(1Cor 4:6)
. . . . . . . . . . . . .Trinitarian . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Unitarians . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Unitarians
. . . . . . . . .(Jesus is God/Man) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Jesus is not God) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . (Other Arguments)
. . . . . . . . . . . John 1:1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .nothing . . . . . . . . . . . . . .John 14:28 Father is greater that I
. . . . . . . . . . .John 1:18 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .nothing . . . . . . . . . . . . . .John 5:19 Jesus can do nothing
. . . . . . . . . . .Phil 2:6-8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .nothing . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Matt 24:36 Jesus do not know His coming
. . . . . . . . . . .Col 2:9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .nothing . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John 7:16 Jesus teaching not His
. . . . . . . . . . .1John 5:20 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . nothing . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1Tim 2:5 Jesus as man
How do you understand the sequence of events here Runningman?
1. Jesus was resurrected,
2. Jesus "seated" at His right hand in the heavenly places,
3. And He put all things in subjection under His feet.
Is the progression wrong Runningman?
Eph 1:20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
synergy
Active Member
It's hilarious how you have such difficulties understanding words such as “no end,” “reign forever,” “forever and ever,” and “everlasting,” all of which communicate eternal duration, not temporary authority. Scripture repeatedly applies these terms to Christ’s reign. Isaiah 9:7 says His government will have “no end… from henceforth even forever”. Daniel 7:14 calls His dominion an “everlasting dominion which shall not pass away”. Luke 1:33 states He will reign forever and His kingdom will have no end. Psalm 45:6, quoted in Hebrews 1:8, declares to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever”. Revelation 11:15 affirms He shall reign “forever and ever”; and Revelation 22:1–3 shows His throne enduring eternally in the New Creation. These texts use the strongest possible Hebrew and Greek terms for unending duration, proving Christ’s reign is explicitly eternal, much to your nihilistic dismay.
Your same misunderstanding of eternal terms also shows up in limiting Jesus’ reign to the house of Jacob, as though “forever” in Luke 1:33 excludes the wider universal reign the rest of Scripture affirms. Christ indeed reigns over the house of Jacob forever, but Scripture plainly states His rule extends to all nations, all creation, and all authority everywhere. Psalm 2:8–9 gives Him the nations and the ends of the earth. Psalm 72:8, 11 says all nations serve Him. Daniel 7:14 declares that all peoples, nations, and languages serve Him. Matthew 28:18 states He has all authority in heaven and on earth. Ephesians 1:20–22 says He is exalted above all powers with all things under His feet. Revelation 17:14 and 19:16 call Him King of kings and Lord of lords and Revelation 22:3–5 depicts His eternal throne over the entire Universe. The Bible is unequivocal in the sense that his reign is eternal in duration and universal in scope, not confined to the house of Jacob alone.
Peterlag
Active Member
Christ will reign forever. That life started for him when he was born which is recorded in the New Testament.
synergy
Active Member
Thanks for correcting @Runningman on this.
The Word, who was God, tabernacled as Jesus on Earth. Since God can never cease to be God then Jesus is God.
Peterlag
Active Member
Jesus is not God.
But God is Jesus. John 1 makes that perfectly clear. The difference is perhaps a bit subtle, but important.
I would admit that Matthew 24:36 is a bit of a curved ball thrown at us, but I think it is tied to the fact that Jeus was a man, a human being, and as such He was saddled with some aspects conflicting with his divinity, i.e., with God being Jesus. We know that it says that God as Jesus increased in wisdom and stature. He learned and matured. His divinity was demonstrated by His perfect righteousness.
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