praise_yeshua
Active Member
Have you googled for manuscripts yet?
Your Views on The Trinity
- Thread starter Cyrus
- Start date
Have you googled for manuscripts yet?
Runningman
Active Member
I'm going to make you a better debater. So anyone called master in the Bible is God? Don't use the arguments the trinitarians gave you. They keep coming back to haunt you because they are inconsistent and irreconcilable with the body of Scripture.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I didn't use that argument. I'm dealing with realty. I don't care if you call someone your master. They're not actually your master. You do what you want to do. You can bow to them all you want. Doesn't make it real at all.
If Jesus were a separate god, that would mess up what Jesus said. He is of the same God. Duh!
You just deny all that points to Christ as Deity within the Shema.
Runningman
Active Member
Yes, and that very same argument can be used against you.
Runningman
Active Member
What do you think Jesus said?
The Shema is what I quote too. It's about a singular person being God as Paul taught. See 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 when Paul defined the Shema with the one God being the Father.
so if God can be a person, then Jesus, as a person, can be God. Both terms, used in common language, means humans.
Runningman
Active Member
Why? Because you said so? This reads like a category error. God is not a human (Numbers 23:19, Hosea 11:9) and it is a non sequitur.
Those are showing that God does not have the revenge motives or lying nature of men. Nor was he suggested to be incarnate at that time. So all you have done is used a word "person" that either means a human or has the usage for the Trinity understanding.. You simply are using text out of context for your prooftexting. That is why we recognize your lack of exegetical skills.
Runningman
Active Member
Numbers 23:19 and Hosea 11:9 explicitly state God isn't a human and doesn't place a long list of conditions on it like you do. God isn't a man. Period. Do you know what the word person means? It doesn't necessarily imply a human. Yes, humans are a person, but a person is anyone who posses the qualities of personhood. God is described with singular personhood in the Bible, i.e., God is a He, Him, His, and I. People know how to describe multiple persons (they or them) but that isn't what anyone said about God. Make better sense now?
You continue to demonstrate that you are only do prooftexting here instead of studying the bible
Also, this time you have failed to even check your Unitarian Pocket Dictionary.
In this case you are wrong about everything.
Runningman
Active Member
He, him, his, I referring to one person isn't a Unitarian teaching. This is the standard definition of singular pronouns across all languages, cultures, and religions throughout the world in all of history.
Like I noted. You have problems in all areas of this discussion and thus are untrustwothy as a teacher on bible stuff.
Runningman
Active Member
So him, his, he, and I refer to multiple persons in your organization? It seems that's what you're suggesting. That's ridiculous. Everyone disagrees with you. It's sad watching people like you get so radicalized in your cult that you become increasingly delusional rather than wising up.
what are you talking about?
@FreeInChrist
Btw, I have been teaching the same truth on the Sonship of Jesus Christ for almost forty years, I once was in your group, for around twelve years or so, having been first taught the eternal Sonship position. So, I know both positions well.
The problem you are having is this: You cannot get out of your mind what so called theologians believe and teach with their 5 and 10 cent doctorate degrees that most are so proud of. Not against studies in general, I have a household full of children and grandchildren with such degrees and are in the process of getting them. But I also see the great danger of having such degrees, they puff up one's vain mind of making them think they are smarter than what they truly are ~if one leaves off the spiritual truths that are in the scriptures then they are fools of the worst sort.
Your job is to show me where I am in error....you said: "which is almost correct." Either it is so, or it is not so.
Btw, I have been teaching the same truth on the Sonship of Jesus Christ for almost forty years, I once was in your group, for around twelve years or so, having been first taught the eternal Sonship position. So, I know both positions well.
Please do so.
Yes the Word became flesh, meaning God was made flesh in the person of His Son Jesus Christ, who was and is the express image of God. The Word in the beginning was God~"period"!
The problem you are having is this: You cannot get out of your mind what so called theologians believe and teach with their 5 and 10 cent doctorate degrees that most are so proud of. Not against studies in general, I have a household full of children and grandchildren with such degrees and are in the process of getting them. But I also see the great danger of having such degrees, they puff up one's vain mind of making them think they are smarter than what they truly are ~if one leaves off the spiritual truths that are in the scriptures then they are fools of the worst sort.
The bible does not teach you that~you are assuming that to be so, because the Word was made flesh in the person of Jesus of Narareth. The Word was not conceived and born, that's impossible ~by the very truth that the Highest conceived in Mary a male child, THAT MADE HIM EQUAL TO GOD coming from the very bosom of the Highest. Read through the churches epistles and see how many times the apostles refer to Jesus CHRIST, a title that makes Christ equal with His Father as far as their divine nature goes. Jesus was indeed a complex person fully human (which the scriptures teach us over and over) and fully God which we see in the scriptures by many examples, some of which we have already given.
I do fully understand their position, and even once believe in it when I first came to Christ, yet saw the truth more clearly by searching and staying with the scriptures.
If you would confess this you would be closer to the truth than you are now, and it is this: God had only one begotten Son named JESUS, born in time not before the foundation of the world. Jesus was not a person until he was conceived and born around two thousand years ago according to the word of God. Though born around two thousand years ago, he was in the bosom of the Father from eternity, making him ONE with His father in the Godhead as ONE GOD~and by him were all things created. Jesus Christ will be the only God man or angels will ever see, since God is a Spirit that lives in eternity, always has, always will and that will never change. Whoever does not honour the Son as the Father, does not know either of them!
John said the Word, i.e. the Logos, became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14). In Hebrews we read, concerning Jesus, God's Son, that He partook of the flesh and blood of mankind (Heb 2:14). The Spirit that was the Word who was with God in the beginning (John 1:1-2) did not cease to exist, but rather, became the Spirit of the man Jesus. That is precisely how Jesus was fully human and fully divine. The Spirit, the Word, took on the flesh and blood of the human being and accepted submitted Himself to all the physical limitations of the human being. So yes, the bible says that the Word became the man Jesus.
I realize that your view of the "Trinity" is modalism which says that in his inner nature there are no distinctions within God. Only in his external relations with his creatures does God assume different modes or roles in order to make himself known and accomplish his purposes among men. These modes are successive, not simultaneous. E.g., In OT times the one divine person revealed himself as Father; then he became incarnate as the Son; now he relates to his creatures as the Spirit.
I strongly disagree with that view. It does not align well with those passages that cite the three persons of God separate and distinctly, such as the event at Jesus' baptism by John in the river Jordan. When Jesus taught His disciples to pray in Matthew 6:9-13, Jesus speaks of the Father who is in heaven. He is not talking about Himself being in heaven.
The doctrine of the Trinity is filled with mystery. That God is one and three at the same time is beyond our ability to understand completely. We should never think it is absurd or contradictory, however. That would be true only if we think that God is one and three in the same sense. But this is not the case. He is ONE in one sense, i.e., one essence; and he is THREE in another sense, i.e., three persons.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
To which you replied
You also said ...
You seem to have forgotten that in there was this.
Open Debate on the "Eternal Sonship vs Incarnate Sonship which is biblical?"
And from your own mouth came:
Red Baker said:
You were at odds with @civic and me and others over the "eternal Sonship" side with the incarnate Sonship idea.
You should look up that debate.... The first reply is a tell all of your beliefs.
NOW
I made the comment yesterday "you were arguing that deity of Jesus was only after he was born.... that he was not from before creation."
You replied "I have never said that to be so.".
My comment was based on your comments from you input in the Eternal Sonship V the Incarnate Sonship
Your entire point was that the Son, Jesus, was not eternal with God the Father......
You had said " I will start out by asking two questions and then I will give a few reasons why I'm convinced the the eternal Sonship position is not correct and when taken to its logical conclusion, then the person holding to this doctrine ends up denying the Deity of Jesus Christ. "
Now you masterfully twist things again... I do not know if it is because
and you are correcting yourself but when you say.... from reply #3126
First : Scripture tells us in John 1:14 the Word was Jesus when it says "The Word was made Flesh" yada yada.............
Second: The Word, who became Jesus in the flesh was the 2nd in the Trinity or you ar anti-Trin and do not know it...........
Third: The Word was God from the beginning. Agreed but only if you understand he was separate from the Father , and as He became Jesus He still was God as these two are one. The Word and Jesus.............................
This is beyond confusion.....
And once certainty, as we will never agree on with each other is this... 1 Cor 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
The Word and Jesus are one. That is my confession.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I said
Your view is tantamount to being Modalism.
Your view
denies real and true eternal distinctions in the Godhead.
Fact ~ The Bible shows personal interactions before creation....
The Father loves the Son before the foundation of the world (John 17:24).
The Son has glory with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5).
The Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son (John 15:26).→ You can’t have “I love you” or “glory with you” if there is only one person.
Fact~ It makes the Son’s sonship begin at the incarnation
Your saying ....“in Jesus’ deity he was one with God… being in the bosom as the Eternal God”.....implies the person was not the Son until birth.
That contradicts .....
John 1:18 — “the only-begotten Son who is (present tense) in the bosom of the Father” (eternal position).
Proverbs 30:4 — “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?” Asked, centuries before Jesus was born.
Fact ~ It is the historic heresy called Modalism (Sabellianism / Oneness Pentecostalism)
One God who wears three different “masks” or “roles” at different times.
Condemned by the early church because it destroys the real, eternal Father-Son relationship that is the heart of the gospel.
The SON did not begin to be the Son at the incarnation, the eternal Son simply added human nature and became Jesus.
I, unlike you , have held this belief for over 70 years now..... NO WRITTEN WORD, NOTHING MAN CAN SAY OR WRITE CAN
TEAR ME AWAY FROM MY CORE KNOWLEDGE WHICH COMES FROM THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE HOLY BIBLE, WHICH IS GOD'S INERRANT WORD.
OK Red... It is NOT.
Your view is tantamount to being Modalism.
Your view
denies real and true eternal distinctions in the Godhead.
Fact ~ The Bible shows personal interactions before creation....
The Father loves the Son before the foundation of the world (John 17:24).
The Son has glory with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5).
The Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son (John 15:26).→ You can’t have “I love you” or “glory with you” if there is only one person.
Fact~ It makes the Son’s sonship begin at the incarnation
Your saying ....“in Jesus’ deity he was one with God… being in the bosom as the Eternal God”.....implies the person was not the Son until birth.
That contradicts .....
John 1:18 — “the only-begotten Son who is (present tense) in the bosom of the Father” (eternal position).
Proverbs 30:4 — “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name?” Asked, centuries before Jesus was born.
Fact ~ It is the historic heresy called Modalism (Sabellianism / Oneness Pentecostalism)
One God who wears three different “masks” or “roles” at different times.
Condemned by the early church because it destroys the real, eternal Father-Son relationship that is the heart of the gospel.
Where I am an Orthodox Trinitarian!!!!!
The Father is eternally the Father, the Son is eternally the Son and the Holy Spirit is etenally the Holy Spirit, ... three distinct persons, yet only one God.The SON did not begin to be the Son at the incarnation, the eternal Son simply added human nature and became Jesus.
I, unlike you , have held this belief for over 70 years now..... NO WRITTEN WORD, NOTHING MAN CAN SAY OR WRITE CAN
TEAR ME AWAY FROM MY CORE KNOWLEDGE WHICH COMES FROM THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE HOLY BIBLE, WHICH IS GOD'S INERRANT WORD.
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