Truther
Well-known member
We are not born evil. We must commit sin to be found guilty of evil. That is why God's Law is built in our mind. To convict us of sin and condemn us.
Your views on human beings having a sin nature
- Thread starter Obadiah
- Start date
brightfame52
Well-known member
Mans heart remained naturally evil even after the flood, Gen 8:21
21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
In fact mans natural heart towards God in Spiritual matters, salvation matters, being in a right fellowship with God is incurably evil, Jer 17:10
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Remember what the heart entails, mans will is included, its again the hebrew word lēḇ:
inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
Now the word desperately in Jer 17 9 is 'ānaš:
to be weak, sick, frail
This is primarily in regards to Spiritual matters as in Salvation and Right relationship with God,
This doesnt mean things in a humanly social, civil, moral,
21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
In fact mans natural heart towards God in Spiritual matters, salvation matters, being in a right fellowship with God is incurably evil, Jer 17:10
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Remember what the heart entails, mans will is included, its again the hebrew word lēḇ:
inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
- inner part, midst
- midst (of things)
- heart (of man)
- soul, heart (of man)
- mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
- inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
- conscience
- heart (of moral character)
Now the word desperately in Jer 17 9 is 'ānaš:
to be weak, sick, frail
- (Qal)
- to be incurable
- to be sick
- desperate, incurable, desperately wicked, woeful, very sick (pass participle) (metaph.)
This is primarily in regards to Spiritual matters as in Salvation and Right relationship with God,
This doesnt mean things in a humanly social, civil, moral,
brightfame52
Well-known member
Is man born natural ? This describes the heart of the natural man. from the womb, hence mans only hope is to be born again
Truther
Well-known member
Yes. But infants are not required to be born again.
Johann
Well-known member
Correct-
In scripture, it is stated multiple times that there is no one who is truly good. This concept is reiterated in various verses across different books of the Bible. The idea that no one is good is emphasized in Romans 3:10-12, where it is mentioned three times that there is none righteous, no one who understands, and no one who seeks after God
. Additionally, Luke 18:19 highlights Jesus' response when asked about goodness, stating that no one is good except God alone
. Furthermore, Psalm 14:1 emphasizes the same sentiment, stating that the fool says in his heart that there is no God and that there is no one who does good
. These verses collectively emphasize the biblical perspective that no one is inherently good apart from God.
As it is written. The quotation (verses Rom_3:10-18) is from several passages of the OT. All refer to the same subject. The passages cited in Rom_3:10-12 (general) are from Ecc_7:20; Psa_14:2-3; Psa_53:2-3; Rom_3:13-18 (particular) are from Psa_5:9; Psa_140:3; Psa_10:7; Isa_59:7-8; Psa_36:1, Verification of these references, from the standpoint of Paul’s argument, throws much light upon the OT passages in which they occur (CB). Rom_3:4, Rom_11:8; +*Rom_15:3; +*Rom_15:4, +**Isa_8:20 note. Joh_10:34, 1Pe_1:16.
Ro 3:10 (KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
As it is
Ro 3:4 May it never be! Yes, let God be found true, but every man a liar. As it is written, “that you might be justified in your words, and might prevail when you come into judgment.”
Ro 11:8 According as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.”
Ro 15:3-4 [3] For even Christ didn’t please himself. But, as it is written, “The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me.” [4] For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that through perseverance and through encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Is 8:20 Turn to the law and to the covenant! If they don’t speak according to this word, surely there is no morning for them.
1Pe 1:16 because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”
There
*Ps 14:1-3 [1] For the Chief Musician. By David. The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt. They have done abominable deeds. There is no one who does good. [2] Yahweh looked down from heaven on the children of men, to see if there were any who understood, who sought after God. [3] They have all gone aside. They have together become corrupt. There is no one who does good, no, not one.
*Ps 53:1-3 [1] For the Chief Musician. To the tune of “Mahalath.” A contemplation by David. The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity. There is no one who does good. [2] God looks down from heaven on the children of men, to see if there are any who understood, who seek after God. [3] Every one of them has gone back. They have become filthy together. There is no one who does good, no, not one.
none
*Ro 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
*Mk 7:21-22 [21] For from within, out of the hearts of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, sexual sins, murders, thefts, [22] covetings, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness.
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one.
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? What is he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Job 15:16 how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks iniquity like water!
Job 25:4 How then can man be just with God? Or how can he who is born of a woman be clean?
Je 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and it is exceedingly corrupt. Who can know it?
Mt 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual sins, thefts, false testimony, and blasphemies.
Mk 10:18 Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except one—God.
1Co 6:9-10 [9] Or don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Don’t be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals, [10] nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortionists, will inherit God’s Kingdom.
Ga 5:19-21 [19] Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, [20] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, [21] envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
Eph 2:1-3 [1] You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins, [2] in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience. [3] We also all once lived among them in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph 5:3-6 [3] But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be mentioned among you, as becomes saints; [4] nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not appropriate, but rather giving of thanks. [5] Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man (who is an idolater), has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. [6] Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience.
Col 3:5-9 [5] Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: sexual immorality, uncleanness, depraved passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. [6] For these things’ sake the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. [7] You also once walked in those, when you lived in them, [8] but now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and shameful speaking out of your mouth. [9] Don’t lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his doings,
1Ti 1:9-10 [9] as knowing this, that law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, [10] for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine,
2Ti 3:2-5 [2] For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, [3] without natural affection, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, not lovers of good, [4] traitors, headstrong, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, [5] holding a form of godliness but having denied its power. Turn away from these, also.
Tt 3:3 For we were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
1Jn 1:8-10 [8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Re 21:8 But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Re 22:15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
There is NO one good on this planet-according to Scriptures and we need to humble ourselves or we shall be humbled.
Rockson
Well-known member
Yes. Man's heart was prone to be evil after the flood and before it. But how does that prove your mistaken position that man is so depraved that he can't choose to allow God without irresistible grace (for that's what you need with your definition of total depravity) how does that prove your position that a man can't at least choose a good thing to allow Christ to become Lord of his life. Gen 8:21 and the other verses you quoted Jer 17:10 doesn't prove that AT ALL.
Again doesn't demonstrate in the least your Calvinistic positions . You're thinking you've made some great point and you haven't made nothing at all.
Johann
Well-known member
Forgetting--
While the Bible does highlight certain individuals as righteous, like Noah, Abraham, and others, it is clear that even these "good" people were not perfect or without sin. The key is that their righteousness came from their faith in and relationship with God, not from their own inherent goodness.
For example, regarding Noah, the Bible states:
"Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God." (Genesis 6:9)
However, the Bible also records instances where even Noah sinned and fell short, such as when he became drunk and uncovered (Genesis 9:20-21).
The same is true for other biblical figures considered righteous, like Abraham, Moses, David, and others. They were imperfect people who trusted in God's grace and mercy, not their own merit.
The broader scriptural teaching is that "there is no one righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10) and "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). This underscores humanity's universal need for God's salvation through Jesus Christ.
The examples of Noah, Abraham, and others demonstrate that even the most righteous people are still dependent on God's grace. Their righteousness comes from their faith relationship with God, not from any inherent goodness of their own. This highlights the core biblical truth that salvation is by grace, through faith , in Christ.
Obadiah
Well-known member
Noah's life can be seen as a model of patience, persistence, and unwavering faithfulness to God in the face of a faithless society. Surely it wasn't easy for Noah, but he found favor in God's eyes because of his remarkable obedience. Up until that time it had never rained before, So they had no idea of what a flood was.
Genesis 2:5–6 states that “the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground”.
Manasseh
Member
No I didn't forget that's a different topic. He for sure had a problem with alcohol. But he was still a righteous man and God sight. He wasn't incapable of obeying god because of a sin nature.
The story of Noah's drunken transgression is a reminder that even the godliest people have weaknesses and can fall prey to temptation and sin.
Now we do live in a fallen world and we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. That includes Christians.
9. If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].
10 If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts].
1 John 1:9–10
Johann
Well-known member
We are all a work in progress-right?
Manasseh
Member
Yes, God's not finished with this yet.
Wayne Grudem offers this concise definition: ‘Sanctification is a progressive work of God and man that makes us [believers] more and more free from sin and like Christ in our actual lives.’
brightfame52
Well-known member
I dont know what you talking about,babies are sinners in their early stage of development.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Prone nothing,mans heart is all the way only evil continually, and its not curable.
brightfame52
Well-known member
No Noah wasnt an exception, he found grace in the sight of the Lord.If one is Gods elect, though he or she is ungodly, they are righteous in Christ Gen 6 8
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Truther
Well-known member
What age did you commit your first sin? Or was it when you took your first breath?
Manasseh
Member
And why did you find grace in the eyes of the lord? Because Noah pleased God. He A righteous man.
This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:9
brightfame52
Well-known member
No Noah wasnt an exception, he found grace in the sight of the Lord.If one is Gods elect, though he or she is ungodly, they are righteous in Christ Gen 6 8
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Even while the wickedness of man was great upon the earth
Genesis 6:5–9 (KJV 1900) — 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Johann
Well-known member
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Based on the context, the "they" in Romans 3:9-18 refers to both Jews and Gentiles. Paul is making the point that all people, both Jews and Gentiles, are under the power of sin.
The key evidence is in verse 9, where Paul states "we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin." This indicates the "they" encompasses both Jews and Gentiles.
The subsequent verses (3:10-18) then provide a detailed description of the sinful condition of all people, using plural pronouns like "they", "their", and "them."
This reinforces that Paul is speaking about the universal sinfulness of both Jews and Gentiles.
So in summary, the "they" refers to all people, both Jews and Gentiles, who are under the power of sin according to Paul's argument in this passage. He is establishing the need for justification by faith for all, regardless of ethnic or religious background.
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