The bible does not speak in terms of first causes, and it never attributes to God man's sin
Yes, Calvinists—free will IS in the Bible.
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Nope, creation did not cause man's sin. Man himself did
Behold
Well-known member
Here is one.
God created all of creation "After its Kind".
So, God is the First Cause of all of Creation, unless you believe that a amoeba climbed up a Tree and swung down as an Ape.
The bible does not use the terminology and it never associates God with a cause of man's sin
Biblelesson
Active member
Well Tom I would say that he was associated, Who put the tree in the garden? Who made the law to not eat it's fruit? Who allowed Satan in the garden to tempt Adam and Eve?
Do you believe that God knew what was going to happen and that eventually he would have to send his son to die for us?
This verse says he does.
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. Isaiah 46:9-10
We must careful not to think Adam and Eve’s falling into sin means that God is the author of sin or that He tempted them to sin.
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. James 1:13
Some people object to the story of the fall by saying that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall damages man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin?
An answer to that question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith:
“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established”
Theologians often employ the useful term concurrence to explain the reality that God and human beings both act at the same time so that the Lord's plan is fulfilled and our choices are really and truly our own.
In essence, concurrence says that two or more parties can act in the same event and produce a given outcome without all parties having the same intent. Job's life is a good illustration of concurrence. In Job 1, we read of three major players in Job's suffering. Satan instigated the suffering by issuing a challenge to the Lord regarding Job's piety. God allowed Satan to bring suffering into Job's life. The Chaldeans and the Sabeans attacked Job's family and stole his livestock. But the intent of each party in producing the same outcome—Job's suffering—was different. Satan intended to discredit Job, and by extension, to discredit God. The intent of the Chaldeans and Sabeans was to enrich themselves. Our Lord's intent was to vindicate Job's faith. Each of these players was necessarily involved in Job's suffering, but at different levels and with different motivations. There was a concurrence among them that Job should suffer, but each had a different reason for this suffering. God's intent was good. The other players intended evil.
Concurrence helps explain how God can ordain evil and not be guilty of sin. He has a holy intent in all He ordains. Evil is evil, but the Lord never has an evil intent, and He never does evil Himself. He works through the evil intents of others to fulfill His good intent.
Divine Concurrence | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org
One of the best examples of concurrence in Scripture is seen in the death of Christ. God ordained the crucifixion and evil men acted to bring it about. Both wer
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Do you have a bible verse which associates God casually man's sin?
Biblelesson
Active member
Just read the post Tom. My opinion was explained in great detail. In the post I mentioned in several times that God doesn't cause men to sin. So how would I find a verse that directly says he does. His being associated with it was my opinion. Who put Adam and Eve in the garden? Answer... God. That's my opinion where did I get my opinion? From the Bible.
So you mention God does not cause men to sin
How does that accord with a belief he is the first cause of it
First Cause
[ˌfərs(t) ˈkôz]
noun
philosophy
- a supposed ultimate cause of all events, which does not itself have a cause, identified with God.
Biblelesson
Active member
I don't believe that I said that God Is the ultimate cause of man's sin. I'll go back and look through my post but if I posted that I was definitely wrong. God's not the author of sin or the cause of sin. My point was he's associated with everything that happens in the universe because he created it all.
Let me try to give you an example. Take the atomic bomb. Who made the atomic bomb? Men right. Was God involved in it in any manner? Yes he was. He created all the material that was used in it. He gave the men who created it Minds to think and to create.
Now let's take this a step further who was really behind the creation of the atom bomb that took the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent men women and children? Satan right the real author sin?
I'm sorry for the confusion Tom I thought I was making myself clear in my first post.
You didn't but the definition did
First Cause
[ˌfərs(t) ˈkôz]
noun
philosophy
- a supposed ultimate cause of all events, which does not itself have a cause, identified with God.
Biblelesson
Active member
What do you suppose will be the ultimate cause of the sun coming up tomorrow? In Florida you'll see it before I will. I think we could safely assume the cause of the sun coming up tomorrow can be identified with God.
Go out tomorrow morning and watch it come up and see if it reminds you of philosophy or our Creator God.
Enjoy your evening Tom.
Do not conflate issues. Creation and man's sin are not of the same category.
Biblelesson
Active member
I actually don't believe conflating issues is what's causing this failure to communicate. Creation and man's sin are definitely in the same category. There are 1,189 chapters in the Bible. In the first three chapters we are given the description how God created the earth and how man fell into sin.
No offense Tom But I just don't see how you could possibly believe that I'm the one that's conflating the issues. But nice try.
This may help you out.
The Need to Be Always Right
Some people need to be right always. They won’t admit defeat even in the face of compelling contrary evidence. But what does a person achieve by insisting on being always right?
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
God is not the "author of sin" since sin is basically just "not God". God can't create "not God". But I believe God is the first cause of sin. God is all knowing. God put a forbidden tree in the garden, told Adam and Eve not to touch it and allowed the serpent into the garden to lie to Eve. I'm 100% certain he knew what was going to happen. And He had a plan to remedy it.
Biblelesson
Active member
Pretty much. They had a choice to obey God or believe the lie or the enemy thinking his way was better. The same lie he believed in heaven When he thought he could have exalt himself above God. That didn't work out too good for him and it didn't work out too good for Adam and Eve either. And Mankind is still suffering the consequences. But you're absolutely right God had a plan to show us how much he loved us.
No he is not, but it is because he does not determine all of man's sin
On the other hand
how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. ” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)
Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.
b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,
Quote may be found
All the Good That Is Ours in Christ
“Never shall I forget those moments that murdered my God and my soul and turned my dreams to ashes.” Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel wrote these words in light of his horrific experience at Auschwitz. He questioned where God was during his unjust suffering. Many of us wonder the same.
www.desiringgod.org
Calvinism as broached above does make him the author of it.
makesends
Well-known member
Put it however you wish. The fact is simple. God created; sin resulted; man is held responsible for his choices.No he is not, but it is because he does not determine all of man's sin
On the other hand
how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. ” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)
Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.
b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,
Quote may be found
All the Good That Is Ours in Christ
“Never shall I forget those moments that murdered my God and my soul and turned my dreams to ashes.” Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel wrote these words in light of his horrific experience at Auschwitz. He questioned where God was during his unjust suffering. Many of us wonder the same.
Calvinism as broached above does make him the author of it.
As to the punishment: God is altogether just, thoroughly and precisely. What man deserves is all he gets.
And neither of those run according to our definitions or judgements of them, but of God's. We cannot know God's justice nor his love, from his point of view, in sufficient measure to make doctrine according to our knowledge of them.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
He is clearly referencing man's perspective of "first cause". He is dealing with man's system. You're assuming your system is correct in your responses instead of establishing the validity of your system.
This is the fallacy of "unwarranted assumptions".
God is just in judging man for his sin because it originates in man. God is not the cause of it.
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