Tranquil
Active Member
He may have, But I think once he got out of there and started scratching out a living by the sweat of his brow he may have changed his tune. I think he coined the phrase "Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into!"
Would you sin..... to...
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Adam lived on. Just not in flesh. Part of us returns to the dust from whence it came.
Exactly... the bodily part decays while the spirit endures in heaven or in hell.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
None of this was literally "hidden". Unbelief hides things from us.
Deut 18:15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you – from your fellow Israelites; you must listen to him.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Okay. Then Adam didn't die. The death promised to Adam by God did not take place in Adam.
It is only your interpretation that this is so... My interpretation is that the death he was warned of did happen to him when his body died.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Then what did the words of Jesus mean? You're claiming that the death of the body is how God judged Adam.
If so, then what Jesus said doesn't make sense. Was Jesus talking about the death of the flesh?
I'm claiming that there are two warnings of death, eternal death for the unforgivable reprobate who are condemned already and earthly death for the sinful elect.
As for what Jesus meant, I'm not a mind reader to know which words you refer to ...
civic
Active Member
What or who are the sinful elect if all are under sin and condemned in Adam ?
In keeping with John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. Berean Standard Bible
we have believers who are not condemned but since they are human, they are sinful (though by themselves, not Adam) and we have 'never believers' who are condemned already. Surely already refers to since or from before being conceived. This puts the time of the Satanic rebellion to YHWH's deity in the time before the creation of the physical universe and the start of mankind's trials since the serpent was already sinful before A&E ate.
Since I contend that our choice to believe HIS claims were the cause of our being elected to salvation and the heavenly life before the foundation of the world, it is no great leap to see that already also applies to those believers who are not condemned in Jn 3:18, even though they are now sinners, sheep gone astray into sin, the sinful people of the kingdom sown into mankind to be redeemed, Matt 13:36-39.
This also implies that their fall into sin happened after they put their faith in the Son as their Saviour before the foundation of the physical universe causing their election to salvation and heaven ie, coming under the promise that even IF they should ever sin, they would not be condemned but will be saved by their faith in YHWH as their GOD and Saviour. This is saving faith, that is, belief without proof before we ever sinned, our hope without proof that HE was telling us the truth because we wanted the reality HE promised more than any other reality we could envision.
But some of us then rebelled against HIS commands (ie, not HIM as GOD) and became sinners in HIS sight. Only sinners are sown into the earth: the reprobate condemned already and the sheep saved by their faith who are here to learn to 'come out from among them and to touch not their sinfulness' so they could be judged... which would seem to be the original command that some elect sheep rebelled against, becoming sinners in need of redemption and sanctification in Christ.
So: two kinds of sinners:
1. the demonic reprobate who are condemned already and
2. the sinful elect sheep, the sinful people of the kingdom, who are elected to redemption, sanctification and Brideship.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I know what you claim. I'm dealing with the Scriptures concerning Adam. Adam did not suffer death. I believe what Jesus said.
Another question that might help.....
1. Would Adam have died if he hadn't "ate" of the trees from the garden?
I believe he would have. Which changes how you're treating the judgement of Adam.
I mentioned it earlier.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
I do not accept that ALL are condemned in Adam...
The difference in how GOD deals with sin is not found in the severity or lack thereof of the disvalure of the sin as all sin has an equal and ultimate disvalue in GOD's sight.
It is the relationship of the sinner to GOD that changes how the sin is dealt with. The so called smallest sin by an elect puts Christ on the cross. The so called smallest sin by a reprobate puts them in hell.
The unforgivable Sin
From my Christian pov, the unforgivable sin was the Satanic fall, their free will decision to reject by faith, ie, an unproven hope, YHWH's claims (NOT proof) to be our creator GOD and to reject the gospel of salvation from sin as found only in the Son. It contained the ideas that HE was no better than the rest of us so HE must be a liar and as a liar, a false god...just listen to atheists and pagans about their opinion of HIM for confirmation.
As the first liar in all of creation, HE must therefore be the most evil person in existence so they repudiated HIM, rejecting HIM from having any influence in their lives at all. Putting their faith in this idea that HE was evil and driven by a psychotic megalomania made them eternally unfit to ever be HIS Bride so they were condemned to judgement on the spot, passed over for election to salvation due to their choice.
They can't be forgiven because
1. they made the decision to rebel against GOD's claims to Deity by their free will and a free will decision cannot be changed by anyone, even GOD, unless the person asks for it to be changed. All free will decisions must be sacrosanct and inviolable, apart from GOD's interference or it cannot be defined as free. This is not a rule but a matter of definition: A cannot be not A at the same time; wet cannot be dry at the same time; free to choose an unchangeable decision can't therefore be changed by another and still be considered free.
2. Once they rebelled they became enslaved by the addictive power of evil which destroyed their ability to seek true repentance and save themselves by changing their minds about HIM. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and became even more committed to the belief that they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god. So great is their addiction to evil that even after they learned the truth of HIS divinity and power when they saw the creation of the physical universe with their own eyes as described in Job 38:7, they could not change their minds because they loved their sin more than the truth as we learn in Roman 1:20+.
This describes the Satanic fall that precipitated the war in heaven and had all sinners, elect and reprobate, flung into the earth.
They are not unforgivable because HE hates them and their sin so much because it is worse than other sins but because when HE proclaimed his gospel of salvation to every creature created in HIS image, Colossians 1:23, for us to accept HIS claims or to reject HIM, HE promised us our choice would not be interfered with or changed or forced upon us without our consent, though there would be legal and natural consequences...warnings which some ignored as lies.
The choice to repudiate HIS help in saving them from the grip of sin while becoming unable to save themselves by changing their minds sealed their doom.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So... just another "flavor" of Limited Atonement?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Yes. Sin pre-existed Adam and Eve. I don't see how you have any evidence of anything else.
Mistake. That life is ONLY in the Son before the foundation of the world.
2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
He alone had/has immortality...
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
I have some five (5) reasons to believe that Adam was a sinner before he ate...
I also believe that eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil refers to testing YHWH's definitions of evil by choosing to experience rebellion and evil for themselves,
and that all sinners chose to sin before the creation of the physical universe and then were sown into the earth for the redemption of the sinful elect, Matt 13:36-39. Death of the body is the wages for all sinners; the condemnation of the reprobate to hell is the death only of the Satanic demons. chosen to experience sin against the command of GOD, Matt 25:41. IF Adam had not sinned, he would never have been born, sown, into the earth as a sinner but would be one of the holy elect.
As for the
I do not accept that as a realty since I accept that Adam is an elect good seed, that is, coming under the reference that no believer is ever condemned, ie, judged, John 3:18.
This death is not the death of the body but is the eternal death of the person in hell therefore a believer that sinneth does indeed suffer the death of his body but will never die the eternal death of hell.
If you have another interpretation, lay it out and I will peruse it.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Why beat your dead horse???
I DO NOT BELIEVE SATAN HAS THE ABILITY TO CREATE LIFE IN THE FLESH.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN REINCARNATION.
Stop repeating these useless questions and I will quit shouting...<headshake, facepalm>
Your insistence that my words must be interpreted to mean these things are blinding you the actual meaning of my words...
praise_yeshua
Active Member
They were questions. What you said demands those questions.
You applied the "sowing" of seeds relative to God's action and Satan's action. I believe you need to clearly state how Satan creates life or give a more details explanation. It really is that simple. I'm just looking for more details. I don't see any OTHER possible scenarios given what you've stated.
Way back, you asked this and I answered. If you didn't understand my answer then fine, but if you are just badgering me to express your scorn and to just ignore me again, let's drop it, eh?
It is YOUR idea that we are all created on earth but I do not believe that.
We were created as heavenly spirits and were moved to Sheol when we sinned and are moved again, sown, into the world for the redemption of the sinful elect. NO creation of anyone is involved in the sowing of Mat 13:36-39!!!
I am not a Mormon...
36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons/PEOPLE of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons/PEOPLE of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.
If we are not fixated on the idea that our conception on earth must be our creation then this makes perfect sense. Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God. Berean Standard Bible, tells us very clearly that the wicked RETURN to Sheol no matter how the KJV and others try to twist the Hebrew shuv to mean something else to hide what they consider to be a heresy from our eyes...eisegesis can be fun!
The return to GOD of Ecc 12:7 ...before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Berean Standard Bible, cannot be referring to the wicked dead so must be referring to the redeemed dead and the word return is also S7725. shub, and suitably separates the two so it is easy to accept that if the end of one, our spirit, is not the same as the end of the other, our body, then neither is the creation of one, the spirit, necessarily a part of the creation of the other, our body of dust.
It is YOUR idea that we are all created on earth but I do not believe that.
We were created as heavenly spirits and were moved to Sheol when we sinned and are moved again, sown, into the world for the redemption of the sinful elect. NO creation of anyone is involved in the sowing of Mat 13:36-39!!!
Answered: Satan doesn't create life as you suggest when you claim Satan sowing people into the earth must mean our creation.
I am not a Mormon...
Of course I did - I was just repeating the doctrine of the metaphor of the EXPLANATION of the metaphor, that is, no more literary devices like metaphor or hyperbole, of seeds in a garden being the actual sowing of people into the world which we find in Matthew 13:36-39:
36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons/PEOPLE of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons/PEOPLE of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.
If we are not fixated on the idea that our conception on earth must be our creation then this makes perfect sense. Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God. Berean Standard Bible, tells us very clearly that the wicked RETURN to Sheol no matter how the KJV and others try to twist the Hebrew shuv to mean something else to hide what they consider to be a heresy from our eyes...eisegesis can be fun!
The return to GOD of Ecc 12:7 ...before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Berean Standard Bible, cannot be referring to the wicked dead so must be referring to the redeemed dead and the word return is also S7725. shub, and suitably separates the two so it is easy to accept that if the end of one, our spirit, is not the same as the end of the other, our body, then neither is the creation of one, the spirit, necessarily a part of the creation of the other, our body of dust.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
No badgering involved. Answer or don't answer. Up to you.
God knelt and took some wet dust from the EARTH and formed man. We know this is true throughout Scripture. God breathed into man the breath of life. No metaphors involved.
I don't see an answer to my question of "reincarnation". Do you mind answering?
OR... are you insisting the the wicked humans "sown" in this life come from hell?
Similar threads
