"Works Salvation"

[Titus]

Again, that is not what Scripture says.
John 3:16 (and many other passages) says belief leads to salvation.
Note that the people in Acts 2:37 believed. And when they asked Peter what they needed to do, his response was not that there is nothing you need to do because you already believe. No, his response to those who already believed was that they still needed to repent and be baptized to receive forgiveness (salvation).

Also I'd like to add that John 3:16 in the KJV says believeth. That word means a continuation of believing not one period of time on a specific day.

 

[civic]

Also I'd like to add that John 3:16 in the KJV says believeth. That word means a continuation of believing not one period of time on a specific day.

Agreed !

 

[Titus]

Again, that is not what Scripture says.
John 3:16 (and many other passages) says belief leads to salvation

Yes Sir!
And before chapter 3 in the first chapter it reads,
John 1:12,
- but as many as received him to them He gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name

The believer has the power to BECOME a Son of God, therefore one can be a believer and not yet a son of God.
Believers have the right to become sons of God whereas unbelievers do not.

 

[brightfame52]

Again, that is not what Scripture says.
John 3:16 (and many other passages) says belief leads to salvation.
Note that the people in Acts 2:37 believed. And when they asked Peter what they needed to do, his response was not that there is nothing you need to do because you already believe. No, his response to those who already believed was that they still needed to repent and be baptized to receive forgiveness (salvation).

Again only the saved believe on Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

Again only the saved believe on Christ.

Since that is the best you can do, I will consider this conversation over. When you refuse to accept what Scripture says (Only those who believe will be saved), but insist on creating your own doctrine of "only the saved believe", I will eternally and always choose Scripture over you.

 

[brightfame52]

Since that is the best you can do, I will consider this conversation over. When you refuse to accept what Scripture says (Only those who believe will be saved), but insist on creating your own doctrine of "only the saved believe", I will eternally and always choose Scripture over you.

Okay, only the saved can believe on Christ.

 

[Titus]

Okay, only the saved can believe on Christ.

Sounds like calvinism.
Saved, regenerated miraculously by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit in order to have faith.

Saved first, then one has the ability to believe because he no longer is a TOTALLY depraved reprobate who can only "choose" to reject Jesus.

Romans 10:17 clearly shows us that you must first hear the gospel in order to believe.
Then belief leads to salvation according to Paul.
Romans 10:9-10,
- that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thy heart that God hath raised Him from the dead(is he already saved?, listen for it!!!) thou SHALT BE SAVED
- for with the heart men believeth unto righteousness and with mouth confession is made unto salvation

Both the believing and the public confession leads towards, to, unto, Future, salvation

Let's read it with your interpretation brightfame52.

- for before men believeth with the heart they are already made righteous

Boy, I've never perverted a verse more than I had to right here to insert your doctrine into the text!!!
May God forgive me!!!

Paul is clear at least I see it, that one believeth and then in the future/unto we are made righteous by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Matthew 26:28.

I've had calvinist teach me that you don't even need to believe in Jesus to be saved.
The well known calvinist preacher Billy Graham taught in his later years that even Hindus, muslims, seeks, and all of the elect were already chosen before they were born. So it doesn't matter if Jesus was never preached to them, their elected by predestination and nothing can change it!!! No belief to be saved.

 

[Ray]

Now, let's not take Rom 10:13 and misinterpret it. Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.'" (Matt 7:21) Just calling on His name, and calling Him "Lord", and doing good things in His name does not save. It is obedience to Him, and showing that He really is your Lord, that saves, because He is the author of salvation to those who obey Him, not just those who say they are His (Heb 5:9).

God wants all people to be saved from the punishment of sin. He wants them to come to know the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4, and that is believing in Jesus with your whole heart and confess it with your mouth. Sanctification is what leads to obedience. We can only walk in the light of obedience to Jesus after we're saved. There are warning passages in the Bible not to turn back. But as for me I've decided to follow Jesus ...no turning back.

Don't get me wrong, lordship salvation is where it's in. I'm definitely into being a Living Sacrifice. But it's the blood of Jesus shed on the cross that saves us, not what we do. We want to please our Lord and savior with our obedience because we love him, it's not an obligation. We can't mix up our who with our do.

 

[Titus]

But it's the blood of Jesus shed on the cross that saves us, not what we do.

Acts 2:37,
- now when they heard this they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, men and brethren what shall we  do

Acts 9:6,
- so he trembling and astonished said Lord what do you want me to  do

Acts 10:6,
- he is lodging with Simon a tanner whose house is by the sea he will tell you what you must do

Acts 16:30,
- and he brought them out and said, Sirs what must I do to be saved

The blood saves but not if we do nothing.
Doing nothing is hearing the gospel and not changing our unbelief.
Doing something is changing the mind from unbelief to belief and acting on that belief by obeying Gods commandments.

If an atheist does nothing will the blood of Christ benefit him? Can the blood do anything for him?
If the atheist believes and obeys the gospel of Jesus Christ, then the blood has the power to work forgiveness on the obedient believer.

 

[Ray]

Acts 2:37,
- now when they heard this they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, men and brethren what shall we  do

Acts 9:6,
- so he trembling and astonished said Lord what do you want me to  do

Acts 10:6,
- he is lodging with Simon a tanner whose house is by the sea he will tell you what you must do

Acts 16:30,
- and he brought them out and said, Sirs what must I do to be saved

The blood saves but not if we do nothing.
Doing nothing is hearing the gospel and not changing our unbelief.
Doing something is changing the mind from unbelief to belief and acting on that belief by obeying Gods commandments.

If an atheist does nothing will the blood of Christ benefit him? Can the blood do anything for him?
If the atheist believes and obeys the gospel of Jesus Christ, then the blood has the power to work forgiveness on the obedient believer.

What you must do is believe, that gives you the change in heart and mind. So actually believing is doing something. It's accepting what Jesus did on the cross. It becomes real to you. You can accept the gift of salvation.

Take a good look at acts 16:30

30 And he brought them out [of the dungeon] and said, Men, what is it necessary for me to do that I may be saved?
31 And they answered, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ [give yourself up to Him, take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved, [and this applies both to] you and your household as well.
Acts 16:30–31.

 

[Titus]

What you must do is believe, that gives you the change in heart and mind. So actually believing is doing something. It's accepting what Jesus did on the cross. It becomes real to you. You can accept the gift of salvation.

Take a good look at acts 16:30

30 And he brought them out [of the dungeon] and said, Men, what is it necessary for me to do that I may be saved?
31 And they answered, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ [give yourself up to Him, take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved, [and this applies both to] you and your household as well.
Acts 16:30–31.

Salvation is not apart from obedience.
The doing is believing the gospel.
Biblical faith always includes obedience in order to be saved and to stay saved.
Thus true Biblical faith always obeys.
One without the other is not the faith Paul, James teaches justifies man.

Faith only salvation requires no obedience to Gods commandments except, the commandment to believe.
Did you know faith in Christ is commanded?
This proves faith is a work for works must be obeyed.
Commandments are obeyed.

1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment

To believe in Christ is to obey the commandment of God, 1John 3:23-24.

Obeying commandments is working righteousness.

Therefore true saving faith cannot be void of good works.

Examples of works by commandment keeping,

Faith in Christ, 1John 3:23-24,
John 6:28-29,
- then they said to Jesus, what shall we do that we may work the works of God
Jesus answered and said to them this is the work of God that you believe in Him whom He sent

We must work the works of God by working the commandment to believe in Christ.

More examples of faith working obedience,

Acts 10:47-48,
- can anyone forbid water that these should be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit as we have
- and he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord

Two commandments so far,
1 The commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24.
2 The commandment to be water baptized in the name of Jesus, Acts 10:47-48.

Faith alone salvation teaches no works to be saved only works after one is saved.

Yet the Scriptures teach to be saved one must obey Gods commandments like belief, 1John 3:23-24, John 6:28-29.

If we must obey the work of belief to be saved.
Can I disobey the commandment to be baptized and be saved?

If so the gospel of Jesus Christ saves not by obedience to God but by disobedience to His commandments.

Therefore salvation by faith alone apart from works is a gospel of salvation through disobedience to Gods commandments,

Notice again the commandment to be baptized taught by Jesus,
Mark 16:15-16,
- go into all the world and preach the  gospel to every creature, he that believeth and is baptized will be saved; he that believeth not will be condemned

Taught by Peter, repentance and baptism,
Acts 2:38-39.

Acts 17:30 repentance a commandment in Jesus' new testament gospel,
- truly these times of ignorance God overlooked but now commands all men everywhere to repent

Faith only salvation demands one must believe but contradicts by teaching one can disobey the commandment to be baptized.

Now the conversion of the Philipian Jailerl
Did Paul teach the Jailer was saved by only obeying the commandme to believe?
There is more to the story in Acts 16,
Acts 16:30-31,
- and he brought them out and said Sirs what must I do to be saved,
- so they said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved you and your household
- Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house

Paul must have taught baptism into Christ when he spoke the word of the Lord to the Jailer as the next verse proves,
33,
- and he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes and immediately he and all his household were baptized

What did the believing of Jesus' gospel include when Paul taught the word to him?
The commandment to be baptized.

The true story of the Philippian Jailer is he believed and was baptized.

Could faith alone have saved the Jalier if he refused to obey Gods commandment and be baptized?
Salvation through disobedience to Gods commandments?

 

[dwight92070]

If that were the case, then he would not have still been in sin when Ananias arrived. Yet, what Ananias told Saul fits perfectly with what Peter said on Pentecost, be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sin.

Dwight - Saul had just seen a supernatural appearance of the risen Christ, who asked him why he was persecuting Him. Saul was not stupid, He knew that if Christ could speak to him, that He could also speak or pray to Christ. He also knew that he had never seen Christ before and so how could he be persecuting Him? Again, Saul was not dumb - he realized that Jesus was saying that when he persecuted the followers of Jesus, he was also persecuting Jesus Himself. What was he praying during those three days? I think it's obvious - "Jesus, forgive me, I thought I was pleasing God by persecuting Christians, but I see that I was mistaken, that You are indeed the Son of God. What should I do now, Jesus?" Saul, at that point, believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that is, he was born again, had his sins forgiven (but apparently didn't realize that until Ananias told him that by calling on the name of the Lord, his sins were washed away) Saul NEEDED to know that Jesus had forgiven him of his sins when He called on His name AND that He would forgive his sins ALSO in the future. Later Ananias told him that his blindness would be healed and that he would be FILLED with the Holy Spirit - he had the Holy Spirit, but now he was FILLED with the Holy Spirit. Notice he was FILLED with the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was baptized.

Again, that is not true. Saul was still in sin when Ananias arrived. And Saul would not have been praying to Jesus, but to the Father (the One to whom he had been praying all his life). He may have been praying ABOUT Jesus, but not TO Him.

Dwight - You make Saul out to be a god-fearing man who prayed to the Father all the time. You forget that Saul was just as lost and pagan as all the other Pharisees. Jesus said, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God." Saul HATED Jesus and therefore, he also hated God. Saul DID NOT know God at all, much less as his Father. No, he was NOT praying to the Father, NOR had he ever prayed to the Father in his entire lifetime. How could he? Unless he knew and submitted to Jesus, he would never even know the Father. Also, if he really knew the Father, he would never be seeking to murder innocent Christians, as he did Stephen. The last time I checked, the Ten Commandments said "Do not murder". No, Jesus had just "introduced Himself" to Saul, and in doing that, He introduced him to the Father as well. When Saul first started preaching, his message was "Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah", so he was just getting to know Jesus and God, His Father.



Read the passage more carefully. Yes, it is speaking of the Church (the Bride of Christ), but it is pointing back to before the members of the Church were part of the Church. They were brought into the Church by being cleansed and made pure and spotless. How? By being washed in the water by the Word. Which points to Eph 2:11-12 and Rom 6:1-4 which show that during baptism the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us with Christ.

Dwight - Those two verses say nothing about the Holy Spirit removing our sins during water baptism. You're reading into those verses what you want it to say.

That is not what is commanded in Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:16. In those passages, it is man immersing another in water so that they will receive salvation. Yes, it is the Holy Spirit who does the work, as explained in Eph 2:11-12 and Rom 6:1-4, but this occurs during man's act of water immersion.

Dwight - "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations (so they get saved), baptizing them in the name of the Father ...(THEN, they get baptized) Salvation occurs BEFORE water baptism. Matt. 28:19

Dwight - "Did you notice in Mark 16:16, Jesus does NOT say, "Whoever has believed and has NOT been baptized shall be condemned." Yet that is exactly what you are "preaching". That is unscriptural.

Water cannot save us, but our faith expressed through receiving water baptism does. Note the statement in 1 Pet 3:21, "baptism now saves you". Not repentance, not belief, not some mental gymnastics; baptism saves you.

Dwight - "This is the WORK OF GOD (not water baptism), that YOU BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM HE HAS SENT." Faith saves, NOT water baptism.

This is a good list of verses, but let me ask you, which one of these is more Scripture than Acts 2:38, or 1 Pet 3:21, or Rom 6:1-4, or any of the other passages that say baptism is the point at which we receive salvation? But you started your list a little late in John to catch Jesus' instruction on baptism. John 3:5 says, "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." If you are not baptized, during which the Spirit removes your sins and unites you with Christ's death and resurrection, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Dwight -Acts 2:38 Repentance and believing is what saves, NOT water baptism.
1 Peter 3:21 Water baptism is the answer of a good conscience, which occured when salvation happened.
Romans 6:1-4 Water baptism is the depiction of what happened when we were saved, NOT the salvation itself.
John 3 There is NO mention of water baptism anywhere in John 3. Water baptism is NEVER referred to as "being born of water" ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE. This is an obvious reference to natural childbirth, which is also that which is "born of the flesh".

Dwight -You interpret many verses to be speaking of water baptism, which have nothing to do with water baptism. You appear to be obsessed with water baptism. Wouldn't it be better to be obsessed with Jesus Himself - after all, He saves, NOT baptism. Being born of water and the Spirit is speaking of natural birth, where the baby is in water in his mother's womb, and spiritual birth when we are born again. Jesus explains it AGAIN in the next verse, John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh (our natural birth, being born of water), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
There is no place in scripture where water baptism is called being "born of water". When the mother's water breaks, the birth process begins.
You have NOT proven your misinterpretation of the Bible.

 

[Doug Brents]

God wants all people to be saved from the punishment of sin. He wants them to come to know the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4, and that is believing in Jesus with your whole heart and confess it with your mouth. Sanctification is what leads to obedience. We can only walk in the light of obedience to Jesus after we're saved. There are warning passages in the Bible not to turn back. But as for me I've decided to follow Jesus ...no turning back.

Don't get me wrong, lordship salvation is where it's in. I'm definitely into being a Living Sacrifice. But it's the blood of Jesus shed on the cross that saves us, not what we do. We want to please our Lord and savior with our obedience because we love him, it's not an obligation. We can't mix up our who with our do.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that our salvation comes through the Lord Jesus' blood. Without His blood shed on the cross we would be without hope. But do you not see that there are actions man must take that LEAD TO our reception of salvation? You mentioned yourself the command in Rom 10:9-10 that we must confess with our mouth (most definitely a physical action) in order to receive salvation. Similarly, we must repent of our sins in order to receive salvation (Acts 3:19). And we must be baptized in order to receive forgiveness (salvation) (Acts 2:38). Not all actions flow out from having received salvation. There are these few actions that lead to receiving salvation.

 

[Studyman]

We are justified by grace alone through faith alone apart from works. (Ephesians 2:8–9; Romans 3:28)

In the first 11 chapters Romans Paul has explained the gospel: that we are justified in God’s sight by grace alone through faith alone because of Christ alone.

Eph. 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of (Man's) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his (God's) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "unto good works", which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

To say there is "NO WORK" involved in providing for man's salvation is foolishness. Would men demean the Great Sacrifice of the Lord's Christ just to justify popular religious philosophy? Is it not then TRUTH, that Eph 2 is speaking of "Man's Work"? So then men we not even born when God created His salvation, nothing I did or could do even contributed the creation of this Gift. A "Work" was involved, just not a Work of Men.

So why am I then Justified? So I can continue to walk as I walked when I was "dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"?

Or does Paul teach that after Grace, a man should "Yield Himself" a Servant to Obey God in the "Good Works" God before ordained that he should walk in them? And in doing so, he becomes the Servant of God's Righteousness, being renewed in the Spirit of his mind to Put On the "New Man" which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

As Jesus Himself teaches. "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

So what of your representation of Romans? Let's see what Paul says about who receives eternal life.

Romans 2: 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the "righteous judgment of God"; 6 Who will render to "every man" according to his deeds:

7 "To them" who "by" patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 "But unto them" that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that "doeth" evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that "worketh" good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Clearly Paul, just as the Law and Prophets, and the Jesus of the Bible also teaches, we have an important part to play in our own Salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

Dwight -You interpret many verses to be speaking of water baptism, which have nothing to do with water baptism. You appear to be obsessed with water baptism. Wouldn't it be better to be obsessed with Jesus Himself - after all, He saves, NOT baptism.

No, I am not "obsessed" with baptism. I am obsessed with following and obeying my Lord Jesus, and teaching others to do so as well.

Being born of water and the Spirit is speaking of natural birth, where the baby is in water in his mother's womb, and spiritual birth when we are born again.

That is your way of sweeping the command of God under the rug so that you don't feel obligated to obey Him, very similar to the teaching of the Pharisees who, in Matt 15:4-9, said that you don't need to obey the command of God if you are following the tradition of the elders.
No, being born of water is not speaking of natural birth. There is no need to speak of natural birth, because everyone who is alive was born in that way. No, this is a reference to being buried with Christ (who had not yet died at this point in time) just as Rom 6:1-4 says.

Jesus explains it AGAIN in the next verse, John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh (our natural birth, being born of water), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Yes, that which is of the flesh is flesh, but John 3:5 is not speaking of the fleshly birth. Jesus says that you must be born of WATER AND SPIRIT to enter the Kingdom of God; both of those speak to the Spiritual birth.

There is no place in scripture where water baptism is called being "born of water". When the mother's water breaks, the birth process begins.

1 Pet 3:21 says that we are saved through baptism in water, not that it removes dirt from the flesh, but that it imparts a clean conscience (forgiveness of sins).

 

[Studyman]

I agree, faith is a form of obedience.

1 John 3:23,24 - God commands us to believe in Jesus; we must keep His commands to abide in Him. If we recognize the importance of faith, we must recognize the importance of obedience, since faith itself is a command from God that we must obey.

John 6:28,29 - People asked what they must do to work the works of God . Jesus said the work for them to do is to believe. Acts 16:30

Faith is essential to salvation. But faith is a command - a work - something required in obedience to God. Therefore, obedience is essential to salvation, for here is another act of obedience that is required for salvation. So works of obedience are necessary.

Yes, very good point. As it is written, "Faith without Works is dead", or Not Faith at all. It is by our works, that Faith is shown. As Paul instructs.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

If I "Believe God/Christ" AKA have Faith in Him, I will obey Him/Christ. This is how a man knows if HE is in God/Christ or not. (1 John 2)

There is a cost to True Faith as the Jesus of the bible instructs. And True Faith is not common as Jesus warns.

Luke 18: 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

In my understanding, God commanded Eve to have Faith as well. Then sent her into a world in which other religious voices existed. In this example written for our sakes no doubt, the "other" religious voice convinced her to reject belief/obedience to God and replace it with belief/obedience to another religious philosophy not promoted by God.

It seems the Holy scriptures are full of examples of men who followed her example, and the consequences thereof, along with examples of men who turned away from all these religious voices in the world God placed us in, and as Paul teaches "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God.

Great topic of discussion.

 

[brightfame52]

Sounds like calvinism.
Saved, regenerated miraculously by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit in order to have faith.

Saved first, then one has the ability to believe because he no longer is a TOTALLY depraved reprobate who can only "choose" to reject Jesus.

Romans 10:17 clearly shows us that you must first hear the gospel in order to believe.
Then belief leads to salvation according to Paul.
Romans 10:9-10,
- that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thy heart that God hath raised Him from the dead(is he already saved?, listen for it!!!) thou SHALT BE SAVED
- for with the heart men believeth unto righteousness and with mouth confession is made unto salvation

Both the believing and the public confession leads towards, to, unto, Future, salvation

Let's read it with your interpretation brightfame52.

- for before men believeth with the heart they are already made righteous

Boy, I've never perverted a verse more than I had to right here to insert your doctrine into the text!!!
May God forgive me!!!

Paul is clear at least I see it, that one believeth and then in the future/unto we are made righteous by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Matthew 26:28.

I've had calvinist teach me that you don't even need to believe in Jesus to be saved.
The well known calvinist preacher Billy Graham taught in his later years that even Hindus, muslims, seeks, and all of the elect were already chosen before they were born. So it doesn't matter if Jesus was never preached to them, their elected by predestination and nothing can change it!!! No belief to be saved.

Only the saved can believe on Christ. The natural cannot believe on Him

And Rom 10:9-10 is about a saved person

 

[dwight92070]

No, I am not "obsessed" with baptism. I am obsessed with following and obeying my Lord Jesus, and teaching others to do so as well.

That is your way of sweeping the command of God under the rug so that you don't feel obligated to obey Him, very similar to the teaching of the Pharisees who, in Matt 15:4-9, said that you don't need to obey the command of God if you are following the tradition of the elders.

Dwight - I don't feel obligated to obey Jesus? Since when has that been the case? If that is true, then why did I feel obligated to be baptized in water at my earliest convenience after I was saved, which happened to be close to 2 weeks later. Was I saved during those 2 weeks? You bet I was. I knew from the words of Jesus that I was saved. I knew literally nothing about what baptism actually meant or even how important it was to be baptized. But I had read that Jesus Himself was baptized, so I figured if He did it, I wanted to do that too. That's what I wanted - to do whatever He said and follow His example.
Dwight - I can't believe how judgmental you are towards me. Just because I interpret these verses different than you, you accuse me of NOT FEELING OBLIGATED TO OBEY HIM and lump me in with the Pharisees. What an unjustified insult! Your unwarranted attitude toward me does not adorn your doctrine at all, which by the way, makes your doctrine even more suspect.

No, being born of water is not speaking of natural birth. There is no need to speak of natural birth, because everyone who is alive was born in that way. No, this is a reference to being buried with Christ (who had not yet died at this point in time) just as Rom 6:1-4 says.

Dwight - Yes, actually it IS speaking of natural birth, since Nicodemus brought up the subject of childbirth - actually Jesus Himself started it with verse 3 " ... unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." So Jesus is referring here to natural birth as one's 1st birth, saying that a man must be born a 2nd time or born again, only this time, it must be a spiritual birth. So Nicodemus immediately questions how a person can enter into his mother's womb a 2nd time to be born again. Once again, he's speaking in natural terms, not understanding Jesus. So Jesus makes it real simple to understand. He says there is a physical birth, where a baby is born of water from his mother's womb, and then there is a spiritual birth, a new birth, or a second birth, born of the Spirit.


Yes, that which is of the flesh is flesh, but John 3:5 is not speaking of the fleshly birth. Jesus says that you must be born of WATER AND SPIRIT to enter the Kingdom of God; both of those speak to the Spiritual birth.

Dwight

1 Pet 3:21 says that we are saved through baptism in water, not that it removes dirt from the flesh, but that it imparts a clean conscience (forgiveness of sins).

 

[dwight92070]

Actually it's the blood of Jesus which imparts a clean conscience and forgiveness of sins (which is the spiritual cleansing of being born again), NOT the water of baptism (which is solely a physical event representing the spiritual new birth). How could you possibly NOT UNDERSTAND that? You have been influenced by the denominational traditions and interpretations of religious men, who say that water baptism actually is necessary for salvation, rather than the truth of the word of God.

It's the same "spirit" of the Jews who said, "Unless you are circumcised (a physical event that represents the spiritual circumcision of the heart) according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." Only you are advocating the physical event of baptism in water instead of the physical event of circumcision. True, both of these were commanded by God, but neither of them can save a person. They were and/or are essential for obedience, but not essential for salvation.

Hebrews 9:14 "... how much more WILL THE BLOOD OF CHRIST (NOT baptism in water), who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, CLEANSE YOUR CONSCIENCE FROM DEAD WORKS (this is called salvation) to serve the living God.

Paul said, "For CHRIST DID NOT SEND ME TO BAPTIZE, but to preach the gospel, ... For the word of the cross ... to us who are being saved ... is the power of God. (NOT baptism in water) 1 Corinthians 1:17-18

If water baptism saves, then WHY did Christ NOT send Paul to baptize???

 

[dwight92070]

I'm reading a fascinating book called The Gospel of the Kingdom with an Examination of Modern Dispensationalism by Philip Mauro. He wrote the book in 1928, almost 100 years ago! He died in 1952 at the age of 93. He was born in 1859. The following is a quote from his book:

"The sinner, when he comes to Christ, receives the forgiveness of all his sins through the merit of Christ's atoning Sacrifice, and UPON THE SOLE CONDITION of 'repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.' " Page 191 2nd paragraph

Obviously, this is not scripture (except for the 'repentance and faith' quote from Acts 20:21), but I thought it was interesting to hear from an outstanding Bible teacher from my grandfather's generation. He wrote MANY books about Bible doctrine. Notice he too believes there is only ONE CONDITION NECESSARY for a sinner to be saved. The one condition is NOT a physical action, like being baptized in water - it is a spiritual condition of the heart.