"Works Salvation"

[brightfame52]

@dwight92070

"The sinner, when he comes to Christ, receives the forgiveness of all his sins through the merit of Christ's atoning Sacrifice, and UPON THE SOLE CONDITION of 'repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.' " Page 191 2nd paragraph

I have read Philip on Israel before, it was pretty good, however this comment is Salvation by works.

 

[dwight92070]

Of course that is false as all Calvinism is. Repentance and faith are not works as Romans 4:5 makes clear, and numerous other verses. You should get your doctrine from the Bible and not the confusion of John Calvin.

 

[dwight92070]

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36

If you believe, you are saved. If you don't believe, you are not saved. If you believe, but stop believing, you are not saved. If you don't believe, but then you do believe, you are saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Of course that is false as all Calvinism is. Repentance and faith are not works as Romans 4:5 makes clear, and numerous other verses. You should get your doctrine from the Bible and not the confusion of John Calvin.

Again, that comment is endorsing salvation by works. Also Calvinism/TULIP is the Gospel of Gods Grace

 

[dwight92070]

You have been indoctrinated. There's NOTHING gracious about the Calvinist "god" who predetermines which of us will be entering eternal life and which of us will be burning eternally in the lake of fire, no matter what we do or don't do and no matter what we believe or don't believe.
But that's not surprising because John Calvin himself did not display any semblance of grace, having "heretics" who didn't accept his doctrine, burned at the stake or beheaded, and even tortured.
"And killing people who perverted his pure doctrine was a moral necessity.

"Calvin specifically justified capital punishment of heretics with Leviticus 24:16. “The one who blasphemes the name of the Lord should be put to death; all the congregation must stone him. Any foreigner or native who blasphemes the Name should be put to death.”

"Jesus’ teaching to “love your enemies” didn’t stop Calvin from approving and promoting the death of his theological enemies. And Paul’s instructions for dealing with people who theologically disagree with you were equally ignored: “A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth” (2 Timothy 2:24-25). Calvin did not patiently discuss his differences with people who promoted competing ideas. Calvin requested beheadings, made death threats, and praised God for orchestrating the torture of heretics.

"Calvin spelled out his theologically reinforced vengeance in a personal letter:

“ 'I am persuaded that it is not without the special will of God that, apart from any verdict of the judges, the criminals have endured protracted torment at the hands of the executioner.' ” - Calvin's letter to Farel on 24 July (for more words directly from Calvin’s pen, read Selected Works of John Calvin)."

Calvin was a cruel murderer. In Geneva, to simply disagree publicly with Calvin, was a heinous crime, punishable by torture and a slow death. Calvin was not like Jesus in any way, shape or form. He was like Hamas or ISIS - either you accept his teaching, or you will be tortured to death. To call Calvinism/TULIP the "Gospel of God's Grace" is a mockery. Any Calvinist who knows those things about John Calvin, and yet persists in following his teachings, is in need of serious repentance and counseling.

Didn't Jesus say that you will know false prophets by their fruits? Matthew 7:15-20 John Calvin was a false prophet, if there ever was one.

 

[brightfame52]

You have been indoctrinated. There's NOTHING gracious about the Calvinist "god" who predetermines which of us will be entering eternal life and which of us will be burning eternally in the lake of fire, no matter what we do or don't do and no matter what we believe or don't believe.
But that's not surprising because John Calvin himself did not display any semblance of grace, having "heretics" who didn't accept his doctrine, burned at the stake or beheaded, and even tortured.
"And killing people who perverted his pure doctrine was a moral necessity.

"Calvin specifically justified capital punishment of heretics with Leviticus 24:16. “The one who blasphemes the name of the Lord should be put to death; all the congregation must stone him. Any foreigner or native who blasphemes the Name should be put to death.”

"Jesus’ teaching to “love your enemies” didn’t stop Calvin from approving and promoting the death of his theological enemies. And Paul’s instructions for dealing with people who theologically disagree with you were equally ignored: “A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth” (2 Timothy 2:24-25). Calvin did not patiently discuss his differences with people who promoted competing ideas. Calvin requested beheadings, made death threats, and praised God for orchestrating the torture of heretics.

"Calvin spelled out his theologically reinforced vengeance in a personal letter:

“ 'I am persuaded that it is not without the special will of God that, apart from any verdict of the judges, the criminals have endured protracted torment at the hands of the executioner.' ” - Calvin's letter to Farel on 24 July (for more words directly from Calvin’s pen, read Selected Works of John Calvin)."

Calvin was a cruel murderer. In Geneva, to simply disagree publicly with Calvin, was a heinous crime, punishable by torture and a slow death. Calvin was not like Jesus in any way, shape or form. He was like Hamas or ISIS - either you accept his teaching, or you will be tortured to death. To call Calvinism/TULIP the "Gospel of God's Grace" is a mockery. Any Calvinist who knows those things about John Calvin, and yet persists in following his teachings, is in need of serious repentance and counseling.

Didn't Jesus say that you will know false prophets by their fruits? Matthew 7:15-20 John Calvin was a false prophet, if there ever was one.

You reject TULIP you reject the Gospel, simple as that

 

[Anja]

You reject TULIP you reject the Gospel, simple as that

I simply reject that statement as being unbiblical.

Whoever teaches false doctrine and doesn't agree with the accurate words of our Lord Jesus Christ and godly teachings. 1 Timothy 6:3

If you accept tulip you accept a false gospel.

Oh, Timothy, guard that which is committed to you and escape from empty echoes and from the perversions of false knowledge. For those who profess it have themselves gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:20-21

I think some of the doctrines Calvinist adhere to dishonor God even though that is not the Calvinists’ intention. I also think some of those doctrines will lead at least some young Christians down theological and spiritual dead ends.

30 As He said these things, many believed in Him [trusted, relied on, and adhered to Him].
31 So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in Him, If you abide in My word [hold fast to My teachings and live in accordance with them], you are truly My disciples.
32 And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.
John 8:30–32

 

[brightfame52]

I simply reject that statement as being unbiblical.

Whoever teaches false doctrine and doesn't agree with the accurate words of our Lord Jesus Christ and godly teachings. 1 Timothy 6:3

If you accept tulip you accept a false gospel.

Oh, Timothy, guard that which is committed to you and escape from empty echoes and from the perversions of false knowledge. For those who profess it have themselves gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:20-21

I think some of the doctrines Calvinist adhere to dishonor God even though that is not the Calvinists’ intention. I also think some of those doctrines will lead at least some young Christians down theological and spiritual dead ends.

30 As He said these things, many believed in Him [trusted, relied on, and adhered to Him].
31 So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in Him, If you abide in My word [hold fast to My teachings and live in accordance with them], you are truly My disciples.
32 And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.
John 8:30–32

Same for you, if you reject the Truths that TULIP set forth, unfortunately you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace.

 

[Doug Brents]

Same for you, if you reject the Truths that TULIP set forth, unfortunately you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace.

Every one of the foundational TULIP principles have been proven false in this forum. Rejection of TULIP does not constitute rejection of the Gospel of God's grace. The Gospel of grace is in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, not in TULIP.

 

[dwight92070]

You reject TULIP you reject the Gospel, simple as that

I see, so it doesn't matter that the one for whom the doctrinal system that you follow, was named, was a cruel and merciless murderer? Tell me again how he taught "The Gospel of Grace". Did he teach the "Gospel of Grace" to his victims before he tortured and killed them, or while they were being tortured? "Murderous hypocrite" is too nice for such a false prophet. In fact, one of his victims called him a hypocrite, and paid with his life for doing so. There's absolutely NO GRACE in Calvinism. To call it "The Gospel of Grace" approaches blasphemy, because you accuse God of doing ALL things, including ALL EVIL things, making Him the author of EVIL. The TRUE gospel of grace is what Jesus, His apostles and Paul preached and taught.

 

[brightfame52]

Every one of the foundational TULIP principles have been proven false in this forum. Rejection of TULIP does not constitute rejection of the Gospel of God's grace. The Gospel of grace is in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, not in TULIP.

if you reject the Truths that TULIP set forth, unfortunately you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace.

 

[brightfame52]

I see, so it doesn't matter that the one for whom the doctrinal system that you follow, was named, was a cruel and merciless murderer? Tell me again how he taught "The Gospel of Grace". Did he teach the "Gospel of Grace" to his victims before he tortured and killed them, or while they were being tortured? "Murderous hypocrite" is too nice for such a false prophet. In fact, one of his victims called him a hypocrite, and paid with his life for doing so. There's absolutely NO GRACE in Calvinism. To call it "The Gospel of Grace" approaches blasphemy, because you accuse God of doing ALL things, including ALL EVIL things, making Him the author of EVIL. The TRUE gospel of grace is what Jesus, His apostles and Paul preached and taught.

You have been deceived, TULIP is the Gospel of Gods Grace.

 

[dwight92070]

You have been deceived, TULIP is the Gospel of Gods Grace.

Shame on you for believing such evil, non-gracious and false teaching. Humbly repent and turn to the author of REAL GRACE and REAL TRUTH, Jesus Christ.
" ... grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." John 1:17 Call on Jesus and He will deliver you, not John Calvin, and not Augustine. Only Jesus can save you.

 

[Doug Brents]

if you reject the Truths that TULIP set forth, unfortunately you reject the Gospel of Gods Grace.

Ahh, so I don't have to believe the truth set forth in Scripture. What I have to believe, according to you, is TULIP, and that will lead me to the "Gospel of God's Grace"? I see. So this is not really a discussion of what is required to be a Christ follower, but a discussion of what it takes to be a Calvin follower. That is good to know, because at first I though we were supposed to be discussing Biblical Truth, not TULIP truth. I am not prepared to discuss TULIP truth, because I have found no truth there.

	TULIP	AGAINST	Comments
T	Total Depravity	Ezra 7:13-16 Mat 23:37 Exo 35:5, 21, 29	Total depravity doesn’t affect responsibility – John 3v36, Isa 45v19, Luke 17v1
U	Unconditional Election	1 Pet 1:2 Rom 8:29 Eph 1:4 ‘in him’ Luke 10:42	Election is conditioned on FOREKNOWLEDGE!
L	Limited Atonement	1 Tim 2:4-6 2 Pet 3:9 2 Pet 2:1 Heb 10	Did Christ die for the ‘elect’ against their WILL?
I	Irresistible Grace	Acts 7:51 Mat 23 Mat 12 Gen 6 Rom 9
P	Perseverance/Predestination of the saints		Predestination is ONLY applicable to someone who has received Christ i.e. after he has been ‘born again!’

 

[brightfame52]

Shame on you for believing such evil, non-gracious and false teaching. Humbly repent and turn to the author of REAL GRACE and REAL TRUTH, Jesus Christ.
" ... grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." John 1:17 Call on Jesus and He will deliver you, not John Calvin, and not Augustine. Only Jesus can save you.

The shame is on you my friend for calling Gods Gospel evil !

 

[brightfame52]

Ahh, so I don't have to believe the truth set forth in Scripture. What I have to believe, according to you, is TULIP, and that will lead me to the "Gospel of God's Grace"? I see. So this is not really a discussion of what is required to be a Christ follower, but a discussion of what it takes to be a Calvin follower. That is good to know, because at first I though we were supposed to be discussing Biblical Truth, not TULIP truth. I am not prepared to discuss TULIP truth, because I have found no truth there.

​

	TULIP	AGAINST	Comments
T	Total Depravity	Ezra 7:13-16 Mat 23:37 Exo 35:5, 21, 29	Total depravity doesn’t affect responsibility – John 3v36, Isa 45v19, Luke 17v1
U	Unconditional Election	1 Pet 1:2 Rom 8:29 Eph 1:4 ‘in him’ Luke 10:42	Election is conditioned on FOREKNOWLEDGE!
L	Limited Atonement	1 Tim 2:4-6 2 Pet 3:9 2 Pet 2:1 Heb 10	Did Christ die for the ‘elect’ against their WILL?
I	Irresistible Grace	Acts 7:51 Mat 23 Mat 12 Gen 6 Rom 9
P	Perseverance/Predestination of the saints		Predestination is ONLY applicable to someone who has received Christ i.e. after he has been ‘born again!’

So you reject the Gospel, your comments tell me that.

 

[Doug Brents]

So you reject the Gospel, your comments tell me that.

No, I do not reject the Gospel. I reject you and TULIP.
You have been shown many times where L(imited Atonement) is proven false with Scripture (Jesus died for ALL mankind, not just the "elect"). And with that one failure, the whole of TULIP begins to unravel. But the Gospel of Christ; His sinless life, death, burial, and resurrection that paved the way for anyone to be saved through faith in Jesus I 100% believe in and stand firmly on.

 

[brightfame52]

No, I do not reject the Gospel. I reject you and TULIP.
You have been shown many times where L(imited Atonement) is proven false with Scripture (Jesus died for ALL mankind, not just the "elect"). And with that one failure, the whole of TULIP begins to unravel. But the Gospel of Christ; His sinless life, death, burial, and resurrection that paved the way for anyone to be saved through faith in Jesus I 100% believe in and stand firmly on.

Lol, TULIP is the Gospel

 

[Doug Brents]

Lol, TULIP is the Gospel

Just wow. TULIP is the Gospel? Then why is it never mentioned in Scripture? Why are the four books of the Bible that we call "The Gospels" (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) completely devoid of any reference to TULIP?

Well, let's see.
Could it be because Matt 23:37 disproves "total depravity"? If Jesus (God) wants to gather Jerusalem under His "wing", but can't because Jerusalem is "unwilling", doesn't that show that Jerusalem's unwillingness to be gathered has an impact on God's ability/willingness/capacity to gather her? Thus, total depravity is false. Man can seek God, and can impact God's ability to gather him to Himself.

Could it be because Luke 10:41-42 disproves "unconditional election" because it says that our choices impact our reward?

Could it be because John 3:16 disproves "limited atonement" because it says that Jesus died for "all the world", not just a few? Jesus went on to say in Matt 7:7-8 that everyone who seeks will find, and everyone who asks will receive, and everyone who knocks the door will be opened to him.

Could it be because Matt 28:19-20 disproves "irresistible grace" because it says that those who choose to believe will be saved (not that those who will be saved will choose to believe).

Could it be because John 12:32 disproves "predestination" because it says that when Jesus was lifted up (on the cross) He drew "all men" to Himself, but only those who choose Him will be saved by Him (see limited atonement above).

So we can see that the Gospels disprove TULIP, not confirm it. We see that the Gospel is not TULIP. Jesus told us to go and preach the Gospel to the whole world (Matt 29:19). So when Phillip was sent to the eunuch, what did he preach? Acts 8:35 says that, "beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him." He preached Jesus to him, not TULIP.

 

[brightfame52]

Just wow. TULIP is the Gospel? Then why is it never mentioned in Scripture? Why are the four books of the Bible that we call "The Gospels" (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) completely devoid of any reference to TULIP?

Well, let's see.
Could it be because Matt 23:37 disproves "total depravity"? If Jesus (God) wants to gather Jerusalem under His "wing", but can't because Jerusalem is "unwilling", doesn't that show that Jerusalem's unwillingness to be gathered has an impact on God's ability/willingness/capacity to gather her? Thus, total depravity is false. Man can seek God, and can impact God's ability to gather him to Himself.

Could it be because Luke 10:41-42 disproves "unconditional election" because it says that our choices impact our reward?

Could it be because John 3:16 disproves "limited atonement" because it says that Jesus died for "all the world", not just a few? Jesus went on to say in Matt 7:7-8 that everyone who seeks will find, and everyone who asks will receive, and everyone who knocks the door will be opened to him.

Could it be because Matt 28:19-20 disproves "irresistible grace" because it says that those who choose to believe will be saved (not that those who will be saved will choose to believe).

Could it be because John 12:32 disproves "predestination" because it says that when Jesus was lifted up (on the cross) He drew "all men" to Himself, but only those who choose Him will be saved by Him (see limited atonement above).

So we can see that the Gospels disprove TULIP, not confirm it. We see that the Gospel is not TULIP. Jesus told us to go and preach the Gospel to the whole world (Matt 29:19). So when Phillip was sent to the eunuch, what did he preach? Acts 8:35 says that, "beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him." He preached Jesus to him, not TULIP.

All of tulip is in scripture.