"Works Salvation"

You stated :
"Each person is serving one of 2 masters, one is either serving;
1) sin unto death - condemnation
or
2) obedience unto righteousness"

Agreed, there are only two groups or "classifications" of people on this planet ... the regenerated [saved] and the unregenerated [un-saved]. (1) The saved individual will seek to do the will of their heavenly Father, (2) while the unsaved person does the will of their Father - Satan [although the overwhelming majority of these people tell me that they don't even believe what the scriptures declare concerning the 'personage' and nature of Satan; that is, they don't even actually believe in his existence or influence upon their lives or in the world whatsoever].

The real contention here between the OSAS and LOS camps involves the following foundational question :

Will there be some re-generated individuals who will later become "un-regenerated"?

If a person believes the answer to that question is "yes", as a necessary consequence, a 3rd classification is created = those who at one time were serving God the father, but in the course of time stopped serving Him [and by default, began serving Satan once again = "hellbound"].

The false assumption or claim that is usually made by the LOS camp looks like this : Since all those who were regenerated where, at one time ... unregenerated, then, it must **necessarily** follow the the inverse must be true ... that there will also be some regenerated persons who will become unregenerated persons. Now, although on the surface they appear to present a logical assertion [at least a coherent one], the bigger question here is, "do the scriptures back up their truth claim?"

It's my firm conviction that the [below] following portions of scripture decidedly destroys any such notion of the existence of this [imaginary] 3rd classification of people. Every child of God has been purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ, resulting in the forgiveness of all of their sins [past, present, future]. They become His possession eternally at that point in time [as a result of a free will decision that they have made]. I hope and pray that that truth doesn't frighten you ... we are now 'stuck' with the dilemma of Heaven being our eternal dwelling place. No genuine child of God will regret making that irreversible decision. As the by-product of receiving a new nature at the point of their regeneration, they will be sickened and repulsed by the very thought of rescinding their initial decision to place their faith in Christ.

1 John 3:9 and the Permanent Nature of the New Birth :

English Standard Version - 1 John 3:9 :

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed [abides] in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."

English Standard Version - 1 John 3:6 :

"No one who [abides] in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."


The Matter of Abiding in God :

Greek Interlinear - 1 John 3:9 - "for God's seed abides in him" :

seed of Him [sperma autou] in [en] him [autō] abides [menei]

Greek Interlinear 1 John 3:6 - "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning" :

Anyone [pas ho] in [en] Him [autō] abiding [menōn] not [ouch] sins [hamartanei]


In both 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 3:6 the root word used for abide/abiding is menó - Strong's Concordance #3306 :

menó: to stay, abide, remain
Original Word: μένω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: menó
Phonetic Spelling: (men'-o)
Definition: to stay, abide, remain
Usage: I remain, abide, stay, wait; with acc: I wait for, await.

1 John 3:9 [as well as 1 John 3:6,7] tells us that all those born of God will not characteristically and habitually live in sin [this reality will be explained in more depth in my next post - "1 John 3:9 and the Permanent Nature of the New Birth - Part 2"].This certainly does not hold true for any person who has not been born of God. The clear implication contained in 1 John 3:6 is that those who are not born of God do not know [and have never known] Him, they have never been implanted with [i.e. - regenerated by] God's seed ... the seed of Him ... the "sperma autou."

"no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him." [1 John 3:6(b) - ESV].

"anyone [pas ho] sinning [hamartanōn] not [ouch] has seen [heōraken] him [auton] nor [oude] has he known [egnōken] him [auoton]." [1 John 3:6(b) - Greek Interlinear].

The vital truth here, as it concerns the eternal security of the believer, is that only two groups of people are in view here ... [1] those who are born of God, and [2] those who are not born of God. All those counted among the first group will abide in God until the end of their earthly journeys [1 John 3:9]. It simply does not logically follow that any among the second group were at one time members of the first group - but then proceed to abandon their faith [thereby once again being counted among the second group] ... it is a logical fallacy.

Conflicting Perspectives :

So, once again we have come full circle to a recurring issue that is of paramount importance to realize and comprehend concerning the eternal security of the believer. Should we view an individual's abiding in God as a necessary condition in order to receive their Heavenly inheritance? ... or should we view their abiding as the inevitable effect or by-product of the implantation of God's seed into an individual's very nature?

It appears to me that this is not an [absolute] case of "either/or", but rather an "both/and" scenario. I would add that it is also perhaps the leading contributing source pertaining to the confusion and disagreements that abound between the two opposing camps.

The solution and perspective that I offer is that of a OJAJ [Once Justified Always Justified] Molinist Arminian; it's simply the one that I believe best reconciles all of the scriptural data on the issue.

(1) Abiding in God/Christ as being an essential condition for a future entrance into Heaven should not be denied.

(2) Abiding in God/Christ as the inevitable effect or end result of being born of God should not be denied.

So, how are these two truths harmonized? ... simply do not deny either of those truth claims. In other words, since abiding in God is the inevitable result of all those having been born of God, the essential condition of continuance in Him will at the same time [inevitably] be fulfilled by those persons. A person does not abide in God in order to retain or "maintain" the implanted seed of God within them ... rather, they abide in God due to, and because of, the reality that God's seed abides in them ... permanently.
"Each person is serving one of 2 masters, one is either serving;
1) sin unto death - condemnation
or
2) obedience unto righteousness" - salvation


My purpose in posting the above was to get a response as to which of the two does the idea of faith onlyism fall under...#1 or #2. It was not about OSAS.
 
Faith onlyist have to refuse to see the difference between obedience to God and good works else it implodes faith onlyism.
Only for those FOOLISH ENOUGH to believe that Salvation is achieved by ANYTHING humans DO.

The only "Obedience" that's significant in any way would be for the person to SURRENDER, REPENT, and cry out in FAITH for Salvation when Convicted of their SIN by the Holy Spirit.

Then, with the Holy Spirit indwelling, a person can "Take Jesus YOKE upon themselves", begin to "Learn of HIM", and behave accordingly.

Salvation can't be "Earned, or "Merited" as you're teaching.
 
Only for those FOOLISH ENOUGH to believe that Salvation is achieved by ANYTHING humans DO.

The only "Obedience" that's significant in any way would be for the person to SURRENDER, REPENT, and cry out in FAITH for Salvation when Convicted of their SIN by the Holy Spirit.

Then, with the Holy Spirit indwelling, a person can "Take Jesus YOKE upon themselves", begin to "Learn of HIM", and behave accordingly.

Salvation can't be "Earned, or "Merited" as you're teaching.
Salvation is achieved by man's obedience to God for no verse teaches salvation is achieved by disobedience. Those who continue in doing UNrighteousness continue to not be of God (1 Jn 3:10) one must work righteousness to be accepted with God (Acts 10:35). Doing nothing which is disobedience leaves on unaccepted with God, not of God.

Heb 5:9 Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that OBEY him
2 Thess 1:8 those in flaming fire are those who OBEY NOT.

As the point of this thread is to prove that obedience does not, cannot merit/earn salvation (Lk 17:7-10) but is a necessary condition God has placed upon receiving His free gift of salvation.

Hence you whole arguments fails in wrongly thinking obedience to God's will merits salvation.
 
Salvation can't be "Earned, or "Merited" as you're teaching.
Does unwrapping a gift "earn" the reception of the gift? Does following the instructions in a will "merit" the reception of the bequest? No, you receive what is gifted to you freely, but you still have to unwrap it or meet the requirements of the will.
Salvation is not earned or merited by obedience. But without obedience the gift is not received.
 
I never claimed to be God........ and by the way, you're not God either. I presented verse(s) that were inspired by the Spirit of God, verses that God said which you did not deal with. Verse(s) which expose the fallacies of faith only-ism.
Based on the bible, I assess your approach as Elder son of the prodigal son story. Since you do not exhibit the heart of the father, This illustrates a fallacy in your approach.
 
Does unwrapping a gift "earn" the reception of the gift? Does following the instructions in a will "merit" the reception of the bequest? No, you receive what is gifted to you freely, but you still have to unwrap it or meet the requirements of the will.
Salvation is not earned or merited by obedience. But without obedience the gift is not received.
The old unwrapping of the gift I haven't heard that one in a couple of years. Yeah it takes quite a bit of obedience to accept a gift. Sometimes you might have to twist their arm.
 
The old unwrapping of the gift I haven't heard that one in a couple of years. Yeah it takes quite a bit of obedience to accept a gift. Sometimes you might have to twist their arm.
Lets say a Billionaire died, and you are told by the executor that you are to receive a significant portion of the inheritance, because the deceased has offered to adopt you into his family. The will states that you MUST be at the reading of the will to receive the bequest. You are in Paris, France, and the reading is in Atlanta, GA. Does you doing whatever it takes to get to Atlanta "earn" the bequest from the will? NO. It only qualifies you as a recipient of the inheritance left for you. If you choose not to make the trip, then you will never receive any of the inheritance that could have been yours, and you will not be adopted into that family.
 
Lets say a Billionaire died, and you are told by the executor that you are to receive a significant portion of the inheritance, because the deceased has offered to adopt you into his family. The will states that you MUST be at the reading of the will to receive the bequest. You are in Paris, France, and the reading is in Atlanta, GA. Does you doing whatever it takes to get to Atlanta "earn" the bequest from the will? NO. It only qualifies you as a recipient of the inheritance left for you. If you choose not to make the trip, then you will never receive any of the inheritance that could have been yours, and you will not be adopted into that family.
What's your point? A gift is a gift No matter how many hypotheticals you come up with. To receive a gift of Salvation you just accept it. You don't really have to take a flight from another continent.

I'm not into work salvation. Scripture tells us salvation is the gracious, undeserved gift of God. I don't do anything to deserve that gift it's given to me by grace.

Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation).
6 And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
7 He did this that He might clearly demonstrate through the ages to come the immeasurable (limitless, surpassing) riches of His free grace (His unmerited favor) in [His] kindness and goodness of heart toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]

Eph 2:5–9

And the only path is through faith in Jesus Christ

And there is salvation in and through no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by and in which we must be saved. Acts 4:12

We receive salvation through faith, first by hearing the gospel.
 
What's your point? A gift is a gift No matter how many hypotheticals you come up with. To receive a gift of Salvation you just accept it. You don't really have to take a flight from another continent.
But there are conditions placed on being adopted into God's family, and receiving the gift of salvation. Rom 10:9-10 is a perfect, direct, unimpeachable example. "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
This is a very clear and direct condition placed by God on the reception of the gift of salvation.
I'm not into work salvation. Scripture tells us salvation is the gracious, undeserved gift of God. I don't do anything to deserve that gift it's given to me by grace.
I am not into work salvation either. Confessing Jesus as our Lord does not earn or make us deserve the gift. But like flying from wherever you are to Atlanta for the reading of the will, it is a condition that, if not met, disqualifies you for receiving the gift.
Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation).
6 And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
7 He did this that He might clearly demonstrate through the ages to come the immeasurable (limitless, surpassing) riches of His free grace (His unmerited favor) in [His] kindness and goodness of heart toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]

Eph 2:5–9

And the only path is through faith in Jesus Christ

And there is salvation in and through no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by and in which we must be saved. Acts 4:12

We receive salvation through faith, first by hearing the gospel.
Through faith. And faith is not a passive, mental only, intellectual assent.
First by hearing the Gospel, but not ending there. After we have heard the Gospel, we must obey it: Repenting of our sins (Acts 3:19), Confessing Jesus as our Lord (Rom 10:10), and being baptized (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16). All of these are conditions that God says LEAD TO our receiving salvation.
 
But there are conditions placed on being adopted into God's family, and receiving the gift of salvation. Rom 10:9-10 is a perfect, direct, unimpeachable example. "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
This is a very clear and direct condition placed by God on the reception of the gift of salvation.

I am not into work salvation either. Confessing Jesus as our Lord does not earn or make us deserve the gift. But like flying from wherever you are to Atlanta for the reading of the will, it is a condition that, if not met, disqualifies you for receiving the gift.

Through faith. And faith is not a passive, mental only, intellectual assent.
First by hearing the Gospel, but not ending there. After we have heard the Gospel, we must obey it: Repenting of our sins (Acts 3:19), Confessing Jesus as our Lord (Rom 10:10), and being baptized (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16). All of these are conditions that God says LEAD TO our receiving salvation.
Faith and Love are active not passive, its something we do and exercise.
 
But there are conditions placed on being adopted into God's family, and receiving the gift of salvation. Rom 10:9-10 is a perfect, direct, unimpeachable example. "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
This is a very clear and direct condition placed by God on the reception of the gift of salvation.

I am not into work salvation either. Confessing Jesus as our Lord does not earn or make us deserve the gift. But like flying from wherever you are to Atlanta for the reading of the will, it is a condition that, if not met, disqualifies you for receiving the gift.

Through faith. And faith is not a passive, mental only, intellectual assent.
First by hearing the Gospel, but not ending there. After we have heard the Gospel, we must obey it: Repenting of our sins (Acts 3:19), Confessing Jesus as our Lord (Rom 10:10), and being baptized (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16). All of these are conditions that God says LEAD TO our receiving salvation.
Believing is accepting. I believe the gift of Salvation is mine. I've accepted it. Therefore I'm able to say Jesus is Lord
 
I am not into work salvation either. Confessing Jesus as our Lord does not earn or make us deserve the gift. But like flying from wherever you are to Atlanta for the reading of the will, it is a condition that, if not met, disqualifies you for receiving the gift.
I'm fully confident that even Calvinists KNOW the principle of what you're saying is sound and reasonable. They live in the same world we do and KNOW that's how the real world works.

If McDonald's sent out coupons and made sure one was put in everyone's mailbox offering a free gift food item for bringing in the slip they know they'd look absolutely ridiculous and be considered foolish by telling people in the shop, "Now I know this has been said to be a free gift but I had to drive here to get it therefore it's not a gift!"

They'd be looked upon quite strangely and really they'd look at someone the same which said that in the shop. Thing is though....when you take the same principle over into spiritual things all the sudden all definitions must change at how we reasonably look at words.
 
I'm fully confident that even Calvinists KNOW the principle of what you're saying is sound and reasonable. They live in the same world we do and KNOW that's how the real world works.

If McDonald's sent out coupons and made sure one was put in everyone's mailbox offering a free gift food item for bringing in the slip they know they'd look absolutely ridiculous and be considered foolish by telling people in the shop, "Now I know this has been said to be a free gift but I had to drive here to get it therefore it's not a gift!"

They'd be looked upon quite strangely and really they'd look at someone the same which said that in the shop. Thing is though....when you take the same principle over into spiritual things all the sudden all definitions must change at how we reasonably look at words.
Exactly. We all have different backgrounds, different beliefs and opinions. Over the years we've been taught different things and believe different things. And it's awesome that we can come together and discuss our differences. Bottom line is Jesus told us to love one another and we can't let a few strange looks :eek: change that.
 
Believing is accepting. I believe the gift of Salvation is mine. I've accepted it. Therefore I'm able to say Jesus is Lord
Then you are making Rom 10:9-10 a lie, and showing that you are not making Christ your Lord. If you are making Him your Lord, then you would accept EVERYTHING He says, and do EVERYTHING He commands. Just calling Him Lord does not make it so (Matt 7:21-23). Many will think He is their Lord, but He will never have known them at all. It is not you knowing Him that saves. It is Him knowing you.
 
Then you are making Rom 10:9-10 a lie, and showing that you are not making Christ your Lord. If you are making Him your Lord, then you would accept EVERYTHING He says, and do EVERYTHING He commands. Just calling Him Lord does not make it so (Matt 7:21-23). Many will think He is their Lord, but He will never have known them at all. It is not you knowing Him that saves. It is Him knowing you.
You're not my teacher and you're not supposed to make these posts personal. Go ahead and post what you believe but don't try to tell someone they don't have Jesus as their lord and savior. That's not going to fly. Pun intended.;)
 
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