"Works Salvation"

[Hosanna]

Hebrews 4:16
So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most. NLT

Sounds like a gift to me.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Then you are making Rom 10:9-10 a lie, and showing that you are not making Christ your Lord. If you are making Him your Lord, then you would accept EVERYTHING He says, and do EVERYTHING He commands. Just calling Him Lord does not make it so (Matt 7:21-23). Many will think He is their Lord, but He will never have known them at all. It is not you knowing Him that saves. It is Him knowing you.

You said, "If you are making Him your Lord, then you would accept EVERYTHING He says, and do EVERYTHING He commands."


So, is that what you do Doug? Are you honestly gonna tell me that you do ***"DO EVERYTHING"*** that He commands?? ... can't you see that is the same thing as saying that you are sinless in all your thoughts and deeds.

Now, it's a very different thing to say that all genuine believers will ***DESIRE*** to follow Christ's commands ... I hope and pray that is what you were meaning to say [but it certainly doesn't appear that way to me] ... otherwise, you and everyone else who supposes they can reach a state of moral perfection during this lifetime are truly attempting to work for your salvation. [i.e. - not working out a salvation that was freely given ... rather, tragically attempting to work for it].

Christ has either done nothing for us, or He has done everything ... yes, it really is that simple. Every person born into this world must decide concerning this issue of their righteousness before God [and the doctrine of justification]. To depend upon even the smallest measure upon our own merit [i.e. moral excellence] in order for our acceptance before God is the very essence of unbelief; we must trust Christ for nothing or we trust Him for all... such was the subject, and the teaching of the entire book of Galatians.

We must place 100% of our trust in Christ's atoning work on our behalf ... placing even 1% of our trust in anything else [fill in the blank] is to fall 100% short of personally receiving the full benefits of the atonement [the salvation of our souls]. If Christ saves us only part way, and leaves a gap to be filled by our own good works [i.e. moral performance], then we could **never*** be certain of our salvation ... and that assurance of salvation is clearly taught and promised throughout the scriptures. It would become altogether impossible to fully rest upon Christ's atoning work for our future entrance into Heaven if there was any gap whatsoever that we must fill to gain or 'maintain' our right-standing before God.

You see, once a person has placed their faith in Christ's blood, every gap has been filled and sealed by that blood... it has filled every "crack". The separation and alienation that existed prior to the believer's reception of that free gift [by faith alone] is once and ***forever*** done away with for those who have meet [past tense] the sole condition for it's reception. This is what is meant when we speak of the precious finished work of Christ as it pertains to those who will believe on it. Sounds to good to be true for most, but the scriptures make it crystal clear that it is a blessed reality!

Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering he hath ***perfected for ever*** them that are sanctified.

 

[Handaan]

Grace is undeserved and unmerited favor from God. It enables us to be saved and have eternal life in Jesus Christ.

Grace is not based on anything we may or may not do: "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" Romans 11:6

It is not a mix of works and grace that saves us. God's grace is all or nothing. His grace covers our sins one hundred percent.

 

[civic]

Grace is undeserved and unmerited favor from God. It enables us to be saved and have eternal life in Jesus Christ.

Grace is not based on anything we may or may not do: "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace" Romans 11:6

It is not a mix of works and grace that saves us. God's grace is all or nothing. His grace covers our sins one hundred percent.

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

and a humble and contrite heart God will not despise

 

[Burdock]

This parable describes God's grace. How it is totally unmerited. None of us deserve it, because Christ died for us while we were yet sinners.

In the parable of the prodigal son, Jesus gives us an example of what God's grace in action looks like. In this story, a wealthy man's son demands his inheritance early. His father gives it to him and the son goes off and squanders it all on reckless living. At his lowest point, the son is out of money and is feeding pigs and longing to eat the same food they are, but no one gives him anything. He finally decides to return to his father's house and ask to be a servant—at least he would have food and shelter. When he returns, his father has a much different idea:

"And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' But the father said to his servants, 'Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to celebrate" Luke 15:20–24

What did The Prodigal do? Same thing we do, he made a decision to believe that a life abiding in Christ Is better than doing our own thing.

 

[Doug Brents]

You said, "If you are making Him your Lord, then you would accept EVERYTHING He says, and do EVERYTHING He commands."


So, is that what you do Doug? Are you honestly gonna tell me that you do ***"DO EVERYTHING"*** that He commands?? ... can't you see that is the same thing as saying that you are sinless in all your thoughts and deeds.

Not at all. There is a HUGE difference between obeying simple commands (repent, confess Jesus, be baptized) that bring us into communion with Him, and trying to live a sinless life for the rest of our life. The steps that bring us into communion with God are, for the most part, one time events (repentance being a continual act). But living an increasingly Godly life, and striving to be like Christ, is a life-long, daily (sometimes minute by minute) effort to walk in His Light. Have I, personally, failed in that walk? ALL THE TIME!!! But do I continually repent and double down on my effort to stay in the Light? Absolutely, every day.

Now, it's a very different thing to say that all genuine believers will ***DESIRE*** to follow Christ's commands ... I hope and pray that is what you were meaning to say [but it certainly doesn't appear that way to me] ... otherwise, you and everyone else who supposes they can reach a state of moral perfection during this lifetime are truly attempting to work for your salvation. [i.e. - not working out a salvation that was freely given ... rather, tragically attempting to work for it].

As I said, this desire to follow Christ's commands is not the issue here. Yes, that desire is required, because it leads to the continual work to walk in the Light and to continually become more Christlike.

But, in order to be saved, there are some things that cannot be left out. And if they are left out, salvation is not received.

Christ has either done nothing for us, or He has done everything ... yes, it really is that simple. Every person born into this world must decide concerning this issue of their righteousness before God [and the doctrine of justification]. To depend upon even the smallest measure upon our own merit [i.e. moral excellence] in order for our acceptance before God is the very essence of unbelief; we must trust Christ for nothing or we trust Him for all... such was the subject, and the teaching of the entire book of Galatians.

We must place 100% of our trust in Christ's atoning work on our behalf ... placing even 1% of our trust in anything else [fill in the blank] is to fall 100% short of personally receiving the full benefits of the atonement [the salvation of our souls]. If Christ saves us only part way, and leaves a gap to be filled by our own good works [i.e. moral performance], then we could **never*** be certain of our salvation ... and that assurance of salvation is clearly taught and promised throughout the scriptures. It would become altogether impossible to fully rest upon Christ's atoning work for our future entrance into Heaven if there was any gap whatsoever that we must fill to gain or 'maintain' our right-standing before God.

You see, once a person has placed their faith in Christ's blood, every gap has been filled and sealed by that blood... it has filled every "crack". The separation and alienation that existed prior to the believer's reception of that free gift [by faith alone] is once and ***forever*** done away with for those who have meet [past tense] the sole condition for it's reception. This is what is meant when we speak of the precious finished work of Christ as it pertains to those who will believe on it. Sounds to good to be true for most, but the scriptures make it crystal clear that it is a blessed reality!

Hebrews 10:14, "For by one offering he hath ***perfected for ever*** them that are sanctified.

The question we are discussing is not about whether or not Christ's atoning work fills in all the cracks to make us completely righteous. Of course it does. Of course we must put 100% of our faith and trust in Jesus' atoning work.

The question at hand here, is how do we become one of those that are being sanctified. Because if we are one of them, then we are being perfected. But if we are not, then there is nothing that we can do to make ourselves perfect.

How we become one of them that are being sanctified is, as said many times before, by (having heard the Gospel) believing the Gospel (John 3:16), repenting of our sins (Acts 3:19), confessing that Jesus is Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and being baptized (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16) (in water (1 Pet 3:21)) to receive forgiveness of our sins.

 

[Doug Brents]

This parable describes God's grace. How it is totally unmerited. None of us deserve it, because Christ died for us while we were yet sinners.

In the parable of the prodigal son, Jesus gives us an example of what God's grace in action looks like. In this story, a wealthy man's son demands his inheritance early. His father gives it to him and the son goes off and squanders it all on reckless living. At his lowest point, the son is out of money and is feeding pigs and longing to eat the same food they are, but no one gives him anything. He finally decides to return to his father's house and ask to be a servant—at least he would have food and shelter. When he returns, his father has a much different idea:

"And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' But the father said to his servants, 'Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.' And they began to celebrate" Luke 15:20–24

What did The Prodigal do? Same thing we do, he made a decision to believe that a life abiding in Christ Is better than doing our own thing.

The prodigal did not stop at making a decision to believe. If he had just mad a decision to believe he would have still been there feeding the pigs when he died, and his father would have never seen him again. No, he made that decision, and then he put action along with his decision and "arose and came to his father". That is the point of faith, not only the mental decision, but the physical action that puts that decision into action and makes it real.

 

[Frank Russell]

I see you're observing the passover on Rom 6:16.

It appears to be a case of scripture idolization. Indeed a shrine has been built for Romans 6:16.

 

[Burdock]

The prodigal did not stop at making a decision to believe. If he had just mad a decision to believe he would have still been there feeding the pigs when he died, and his father would have never seen him again. No, he made that decision, and then he put action along with his decision and "arose and came to his father". That is the point of faith, not only the mental decision, but the physical action that puts that decision into action and makes it real.

Grace... I'm talking about Grace here. If you got to do something it's no longer Grace it's works. He could decide all he wanted but if it wasn't for Grace he'd be out of luck.

 

[Doug Brents]

Grace... I'm talking about Grace here. If you got to do something it's no longer Grace it's works.

Wrong. It does not cease to be grace if you have to do something.
Let's say I am a Billionaire, and you make one dollar a year. I tell you to come to my home and I will give you a Million dollars. If you show up, did you earn the money? Did I get any value out of my Million dollars for you showing up? NO, NO, NO. It is a gift from me to you, that you did not earn, you did not deserve. But I put a condition on you receiving if from me: show up at my house.

 

[Burdock]

Please not another hypothetical.

When the prodigal son made his decision.{Came to his senses} He was saved right then and there from the path of destruction that he was on. The same holds true with us when we make a decision to believe in what Christ did on the cross. We are saved right then and there.

 

[Doug Brents]

Please not another hypothetical.

When the prodigal son made his decision.{Came to his senses} He was saved right then and there from the path of destruction that he was on. The same holds true with us when we make a decision to believe in what Christ did on the cross. We are saved right then and there.

Wrong answer. Col 2:11-12 says that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection. Not when we make the choice, not when we give intellectual assent: when we are baptized.

 

[Obadiah]

Wrong answer. Col 2:11-12 says that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection. Not when we make the choice, not when we give intellectual assent: when we are baptized.

There's no wrong answers, this is a discussion forum. We can disagree with our fellow members opinions but that doesn't make them wrong. I believe that baptism is an outward expression of an inward conviction. That's my belief if someone doesn't agree with me it doesn't cancel out my belief. It just means they have a different opinion they believe something different.

 

[Seabass]

It appears to be a case of scripture idolization. Indeed a shrine has been built for Romans 6:16.

Rom 6:16 is devasting to faith onlyism.

 

[charismaticlady]

In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to His law, and in Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. Christ is God's word made flesh, so us embodying God's word through following his example is the way to turn to him. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves God removing our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey the Mosaic Law.

In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Mosaic Law, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, so verses that are interpreted as referring to the Mosaic Law should make sense for them to be referring to something that Paul delighted in doing. For example, it would be absurd to interpret those verses as referring to the Mosaic Law as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death or as if he delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive.

In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, however, a law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is a law that is sinful, so Romans 7:5 and 7:7 can't both be referring to the same law. When the Law of God reveals our sin, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, but the law of sin is sinful and causes sin to increase. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4-6, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.


In 1 Peter 1:16, is making a quote from Leviticus, so what he was quoting from is directly relevant to the point that he was making and should not be ignored. The Law of Moses was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it is the Law of the Spirit, which is why all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it, so maturing in all of the fruits of the Spirit does not refer to something other than what Peter was quoting from.

The Ten Commandments are only for sinners and are still in effect. The question now is, are you still a sinner?

 

[charismaticlady]

So, is that what you do Doug? Are you honestly gonna tell me that you do ***"DO EVERYTHING"*** that He commands?? ... can't you see that is the same thing as saying that you are sinless in all your thoughts and deeds.

What do you have against sinlessness? Isn't that why Jesus came? 1 John 3:5; John 8:32-36. Jesus is coming back for a spotless bride. We all need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. And if you haven't started on that yet, you better hurry. We are at the door of the Great Tribulation!

 

[Rapture Bound]

What do you have against sinlessness? Isn't that why Jesus came? 1 John 3:5; John 8:32-36. Jesus is coming back for a spotless bride. We all need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. And if you haven't started on that yet, you better hurry. We are at the door of the Great Tribulation!

What do I have against sinlessness? ... nothing whatsoever against it's state or nature -- however, suggesting that its a moral requirement on man's part in order to reach Heaven is quite another thing. The thing is ... a sinless state of existence [i.e. - a perfect moral performance in thought and deed] will, and can never be, achieved by any mortal human being on this side of Heaven.

This certainly is not to say that believers shouldn't, and do not, desire or strive to sin less. And yeah, the Holy Spirit began His transformational [sanctification] process in me 40 years ago when I was indwelt by Him at my new birth. The Rapture event draws ever so near ... the writing is so clearly written on the wall!

 

[Frank Russell]

Rom 6:16 is devasting to faith onlyism.

Devasting reminds me of the pirate word Avast! Perhaps it's the negative of the verb.

 

[Rapture Bound]

What do you have against sinlessness? Isn't that why Jesus came? 1 John 3:5; John 8:32-36. Jesus is coming back for a spotless bride. We all need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. And if you haven't started on that yet, you better hurry. We are at the door of the Great Tribulation!

I just have to say, you have my curiosity peaked ... do you consider yourself as one of those people who have attained to a sinless state of being, that is, a person who is perfectly righteous/upright in their every thought and deed? I sincerely hope and pray that you don't suppose that Jesus is only coming back for those who fit into that category.

Perhaps I've assumed or wrongly comprehended what you are conveying here, and if I have, I apologize in advance. It's just that I've heard that there are people out there who actually believe that they fit into this category called "the perfect human." - lol.

 

[Seabass]

Devasting reminds me of the pirate word Avast! Perhaps it's the negative of the verb.

Devastating enough you refuse to deal with Rom 6:16.