Rapture Bound
Active Member
Thanks civic, but there is no arrow that appears next to the report button ... at least on my desktop.
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
Thanks civic, but there is no arrow that appears next to the report button ... at least on my desktop.
civic
Active Member
Maybe it went past the hour time limit to edit ? I will ask the @Administrator to respond here.
Rapture Bound
Active Member
Thanks Azriel.
Rapture Bound
Active Member
The edit option is now appearing next to the reply button ... thanks again civic.
Glad we could help And yes thanks for helping out Azriel, Appreciate it
L.A.M.B.
Active Member
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We have earned death by being outside of God, born into the Adamic nature of this flesh of sin. Our sin debt, however was paid for by Jesus in his D, B, & R and our belief in his redemption. It was the most precious gift God could give to reconcile man back unto himself.
It can not be earned by the law, the traditions of man, man's rituals, nor any of the rudiments of this world.
The WORK of God is Christ, then we are Christ' workmanship.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This is following his commandments under the LAW OF LIBERTY, loving God, loving neighbors & loving one another. If we follow his precepts then we walk in obedience,allowing the Spirit to rule & order our steps.
If we follow a set guideline deemed by men to do this or do that for righteousness sake, then we are walking outside of God's plan!
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We have earned death by being outside of God, born into the Adamic nature of this flesh of sin. Our sin debt, however was paid for by Jesus in his D, B, & R and our belief in his redemption. It was the most precious gift God could give to reconcile man back unto himself.
It can not be earned by the law, the traditions of man, man's rituals, nor any of the rudiments of this world.
The WORK of God is Christ, then we are Christ' workmanship.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This is following his commandments under the LAW OF LIBERTY, loving God, loving neighbors & loving one another. If we follow his precepts then we walk in obedience,allowing the Spirit to rule & order our steps.
If we follow a set guideline deemed by men to do this or do that for righteousness sake, then we are walking outside of God's plan!
Frank Russell
Active Member
Frank Russell
Active Member
Still don't see the correlation, just seemed to be an attempt at gaslighting.
Frank Russell
Active Member
As it is written may God be true and every man a liar
Since all men are liars, and not God, exhortations to obey are just commandments to obey men.
Rapture Bound
Active Member
Yes, thank you Frank. What happened was the administrator added the edit button/option tab for me today ... whereas, priorly it was not there.
Bronson
Active Member
“Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.”—1 Timothy 1:15
The fact that salvation is by the grace of God and not by man’s works is a conclusion justly and explicitly drawn from Scripture. We know it's not of works least ant man with boast.
In Isaiah 42:8 God states, “I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images”. God’s glory is His honor, splendor, and dignity, and He will not share it with anyone. In telling Israel of how He was sparing them from destruction and giving them new prophecies, God says, “For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another” Isaiah 48:11
Salvation is about what God did. It's a gift that we accept.
The fact that salvation is by the grace of God and not by man’s works is a conclusion justly and explicitly drawn from Scripture. We know it's not of works least ant man with boast.
In Isaiah 42:8 God states, “I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images”. God’s glory is His honor, splendor, and dignity, and He will not share it with anyone. In telling Israel of how He was sparing them from destruction and giving them new prophecies, God says, “For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another” Isaiah 48:11
Salvation is about what God did. It's a gift that we accept.
Seabass
Active Member
Faith onlyism blinds people to the truth. Noah had to do a work commanded him by God to be saved from the flood. So that is a works based salvation and you claim works based salvation is DYI. Hence you claim Noah's salvation was DIY, that is, Noah saved himself by himself since his salvation from the flood was works based.
Seabass
Active Member
Hen 5:9 Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that OBEY Him.
2 Thess 1:8 the ones in flaming fire will be the ones who OBEYED NOT the gospel of Christ.
Each person will have one of only 2 fates, eternal life or eternal condemnation. Paul puts forth both of these options in Rom 6:16:
"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of (1) sin unto death, or (2) of obedience unto righteousness?"
Each person is serving one of 2 masters, one is either serving;
1) sin unto death - condemnation
or
2) obedience unto righteousness
I serve obedience UNTO righteousness. The man-made idea of faith onlyism denies #2 which leaves faith onlyism onlt one other master to serve.
Frank Russell
Active Member
Sounds like a new label has been invented to dismiss an idea.
Frank Russell
Active Member
You're not God, and thus cannot say what God wants. Any attempt to get people to obey the teachings which proceed from you is an attempt to get people to obey you ... not Christ.
Rapture Bound
Active Member
You stated :
"Each person is serving one of 2 masters, one is either serving;
1) sin unto death - condemnation
or
2) obedience unto righteousness"
Agreed, there are only two groups or "classifications" of people on this planet ... the regenerated [saved] and the unregenerated [un-saved]. (1) The saved individual will seek to do the will of their heavenly Father, (2) while the unsaved person does the will of their Father - Satan [although the overwhelming majority of these people tell me that they don't even believe what the scriptures declare concerning the 'personage' and nature of Satan; that is, they don't even actually believe in his existence or influence upon their lives or in the world whatsoever].
The real contention here between the OSAS and LOS camps involves the following foundational question :
Will there be some re-generated individuals who will later become "un-regenerated"?
If a person believes the answer to that question is "yes", as a necessary consequence, a 3rd classification is created = those who at one time were serving God the father, but in the course of time stopped serving Him [and by default, began serving Satan once again = "hellbound"].
The false assumption or claim that is usually made by the LOS camp looks like this : Since all those who were regenerated where, at one time ... unregenerated, then, it must **necessarily** follow the the inverse must be true ... that there will also be some regenerated persons who will become unregenerated persons. Now, although on the surface they appear to present a logical assertion [at least a coherent one], the bigger question here is, "do the scriptures back up their truth claim?"
It's my firm conviction that the [below] following portions of scripture decidedly destroys any such notion of the existence of this [imaginary] 3rd classification of people. Every child of God has been purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ, resulting in the forgiveness of all of their sins [past, present, future]. They become His possession eternally at that point in time [as a result of a free will decision that they have made]. I hope and pray that that truth doesn't frighten you ... we are now 'stuck' with the dilemma of Heaven being our eternal dwelling place. No genuine child of God will regret making that irreversible decision. As the by-product of receiving a new nature at the point of their regeneration, they will be sickened and repulsed by the very thought of rescinding their initial decision to place their faith in Christ.
1 John 3:9 and the Permanent Nature of the New Birth :
English Standard Version - 1 John 3:9 :
"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed [abides] in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."
English Standard Version - 1 John 3:6 :
"No one who [abides] in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."
The Matter of Abiding in God :
Greek Interlinear - 1 John 3:9 - "for God's seed abides in him" :
seed of Him [sperma autou] in [en] him [autō] abides [menei]
Greek Interlinear 1 John 3:6 - "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning" :
Anyone [pas ho] in [en] Him [autō] abiding [menōn] not [ouch] sins [hamartanei]
In both 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 3:6 the root word used for abide/abiding is menó - Strong's Concordance #3306 :
menó: to stay, abide, remain
Original Word: μένω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: menó
Phonetic Spelling: (men'-o)
Definition: to stay, abide, remain
Usage: I remain, abide, stay, wait; with acc: I wait for, await.
1 John 3:9 [as well as 1 John 3:6,7] tells us that all those born of God will not characteristically and habitually live in sin [this reality will be explained in more depth in my next post - "1 John 3:9 and the Permanent Nature of the New Birth - Part 2"].This certainly does not hold true for any person who has not been born of God. The clear implication contained in 1 John 3:6 is that those who are not born of God do not know [and have never known] Him, they have never been implanted with [i.e. - regenerated by] God's seed ... the seed of Him ... the "sperma autou."
"no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him." [1 John 3:6(b) - ESV].
"anyone [pas ho] sinning [hamartanōn] not [ouch] has seen [heōraken] him [auton] nor [oude] has he known [egnōken] him [auoton]." [1 John 3:6(b) - Greek Interlinear].
The vital truth here, as it concerns the eternal security of the believer, is that only two groups of people are in view here ... [1] those who are born of God, and [2] those who are not born of God. All those counted among the first group will abide in God until the end of their earthly journeys [1 John 3:9]. It simply does not logically follow that any among the second group were at one time members of the first group - but then proceed to abandon their faith [thereby once again being counted among the second group] ... it is a logical fallacy.
Conflicting Perspectives :
So, once again we have come full circle to a recurring issue that is of paramount importance to realize and comprehend concerning the eternal security of the believer. Should we view an individual's abiding in God as a necessary condition in order to receive their Heavenly inheritance? ... or should we view their abiding as the inevitable effect or by-product of the implantation of God's seed into an individual's very nature?
It appears to me that this is not an [absolute] case of "either/or", but rather an "both/and" scenario. I would add that it is also perhaps the leading contributing source pertaining to the confusion and disagreements that abound between the two opposing camps.
The solution and perspective that I offer is that of a OJAJ [Once Justified Always Justified] Molinist Arminian; it's simply the one that I believe best reconciles all of the scriptural data on the issue.
(1) Abiding in God/Christ as being an essential condition for a future entrance into Heaven should not be denied.
(2) Abiding in God/Christ as the inevitable effect or end result of being born of God should not be denied.
So, how are these two truths harmonized? ... simply do not deny either of those truth claims. In other words, since abiding in God is the inevitable result of all those having been born of God, the essential condition of continuance in Him will at the same time [inevitably] be fulfilled by those persons. A person does not abide in God in order to retain or "maintain" the implanted seed of God within them ... rather, they abide in God due to, and because of, the reality that God's seed abides in them ... permanently.
Rapture Bound
Active Member
1 John 3:9 and the Permanent Nature of the New Birth - Part 2 :
King James Version - 1 John 3:9 :
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
English Standard Version - 1 John 3:9 :
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
Greek Interlinear - 1 John 3:9 :
Anyone having been born [Πᾶς ὁ γεγεννημένος] of God [ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ] sin not [ἁμαρτίαν οὐ] practices [ποιεῖ] because [ὅτι] seed of Him [σπέρμα αὐτοῦ] in [ἐν] him [αὐτῷ] abides [μένει]
and [καὶ] not [οὐ] he is able [δύναται] to continue sinning [ἁμαρτάνειν] because [ὅτι] of God [ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ] he has been born [γεγέννηται].
Pas ho [Πᾶς ὁ] gegennēmenos [γεγεννημένος] ek [ἐκ] tou [τοῦ] Theo [Θεοῦ] hamartian [ἁμαρτίαν] ou [οὐ] poiei [ποιεῖ] hoti [ὅτι] sperma [σπέρμα ] autou [αὐτοῦ] menei [μένει] kai [καὶ] ou [οὐ] dynatai [δύναται] hamartanein [ἁμαρτάνειν] hoti [ὅτι] ek [ἐκ] tou [τοῦ] Theo [Θεοῦ] gegennētai [γεγέννηται].
'SPERMA AUTOU' IN 1 John 3:9 :
seed of Him [σπέρμα αὐτοῦ]
sperma [σπέρμα ] autou [αὐτοῦ]
The following link connects to an excellent article by J. du Preez [entitled 'SPERMA AUTOU' IN 1 JOHN 3:9]. It's an article that I highly endorse, and is one which I believe masterfully exposits the overall message of 1 John 3:9 [one of my favorite passages found in scripture].
https://journals.co.za/doi/pdf/10.10520/AJA2548356_53
The implication of 1 John 3:9, as it relates to the eternal security of the believer, is crystal clear ...all those who have been born of God will permanently remain as sons and daughters of God.
1 John 5:4, "For whoever has been born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith." [NASB].
Greek Interlinear : "For [hoti] everyone [pan to] having been born [gegennēmenon] of [ek tou] God [Theou] overcomes [nika] the [ton] world [kosmon]."
Those of the LOS [Loss Of Salvation] camp disagree by claiming that a believer's faith may or may not persist during the course of their lifetime, and that some will ultimately cease believing [i.e. - abandon their faith altogether].
Their point is easily disproved when it is shown that all those who have been born of God simply will not remain a habitual sinner ... it simply isn't possible for any person born of God to possess a lifestyle characterized by righteousness apart from their possession of the [saving] faith mentioned in 1 John 5:4.
Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?
Therefore, it only logically follows that all those born of God have not only overcome the world [past tense], but are also guaranteed that they will overcome it [future tense]. As for myself, I share the Apostle Paul's sentiments spoken in in 2 Timothy 1:12, "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
So, once again we discover that the critical question here is not "will I as a genuine believer continue to overcome the world?, but rather questions such as, "have I truly been born of God?, and "have I ever exercised the type of faith that truly saves [i.e.- justified me before God?"].
It's important to properly understand the overall theme of the book of 1 John. It should be viewed as describing tests of life that are identifying marks that all believers possess. That is to say, they are tests of genuineness concerning a person's professed faith. These marks are more evident in some believers than in others, but they all are present in every true child of God. The Apostle John points out what these marks are, and states that those who have them can and will “know” that they have eternal life because only true believers can possess these marks, while no unbeliever can truly have them.
"If however 3:9 and its adjacent verses are read attentively it will strike the reader that in various ways they deal with: being pure and doing right and showing love in fellowship with the Son of God as the test for being born of God, as the test for being a true child of God." [J. du Preez].
The same tests or markers that show someone is saved will also, however, manifest when someone is not saved. 1 John is a commonly misunderstood book. One could understand why, Satan doesn’t want people who are not saved to know that they are not.
J. du Preez neatly summarizes and parallels my above truth claims under the heading of "The meaning of 'sperma autou':
"In the light of what has been observed with regard to paragraphs 3: 1 and 3:2, sperma autou should be understood as that new life of being pure and doing right through practising brotherly love in communion with God (Christ) and according to the example of Christ. Does this not agree with the concept of portraying the likeness of God? Sperma recalls the concept of reproduction according to your own likeness. If the seed of God then remains in the believer, this unusual expression simply wants to convey the truth that the new man is a person regenerated permanently after God's image. I would risk the suggestion that the expression: 'because his (God's) seed remains in him' (the believer) may be interpreted: because he is now permanently God's likeness, ...
Thus 1 Jh. 3:9 means the following: Whosoever is born of God (γεγεννημένος, perf. part. pass., signifying the permanent result, i.e. whosoever is a child of God) does not commit sin, i.e. does not live in sin (durative praesens: οὐ ποιεῖ ), because His seed remains in him, i.e, because he has received a lasting life of purity, righteousness and love in communion with God - in other words, because in Christ (cf. v. 8) he has become God's likeness in a new and lasting way; and he cannot sin, i.e. he simply cannot live in sin (ἁμαρτάνειν, infinitive praesens) because he has been born of none other than God himself (ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ, with emphasis).
The translation of this verse as a whole may therefore read as follows: 'Whosoever has become a child of God, does not live in sin, because he is now the lasting likeness of his father. In fact. he cannot live in sin. simply because God is his Father'.
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Seabass
Active Member
I never claimed to be God........ and by the way, you're not God either. I presented verse(s) that were inspired by the Spirit of God, verses that God said which you did not deal with. Verse(s) which expose the fallacies of faith only-ism.
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