Azriel
Active Member
And all this time I thought it was the blood of Jesus that saves us. So according to obedience is what saves us there was no reason for Christ to go to the cross. All we had to do is obey the law.
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
BINGO!!! after 30 minutes, only an administrator can alter, or delete posts.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
No difference.
FAITH in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus is what gets 'er done.
And then Obedience and "good works" will happen AS THE RESULT OF being Born Again of the Holy Spirit. The GOOD WORKS have no bearing on SALVATION, but do have some significance at Jesus' judgement of reward (1 Cor 3:12-15).
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Doug Brents
Active Member
That is not what Scripture says.
Rom 10:9-10 says that confession of Jesus as Lord LEADS TO salvation.
Acts 3:19 says that repentance LEADS TO salvation.
Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 say that baptism LEADS TO salvation.
These acts are not THE RESULT OF being born again, but THE PRECURSOR TO being born again.
Bob Carabbio
Active Member
Then handle Eph 2:8,9.
I think we got it worked out
Doug Brents
Active Member
Eph 2:8-9 is easily understood if you take it in context with the rest of Scripture.
Knowing that Scripture does not contradict itself, and knowing that Rom 10:9-10 says clearly that confession "with the mouth" (definitely a physical act) leads to salvation, we cannot read Eph 2:8-9 as saying that there is no physical act that is necessary to receive salvation.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Looking at these two verses, and the context in which they sit, we see that salvation is the gift from God, and it is received through faith. And this gift is received not because of the works of the Law (of Moses) that we do, but because of our faith in Jesus. Many believe that faith is the same as belief (intellectual assent), but faith (as depicted in Heb 11 and James 2) is much more than intellectual assent. Faith requires that we act on our belief, or that belief doesn't really exist (James 2:12, 20, 22, 24, 26). That being said, the faith that Eph 2:8-9 calls for must then include the actions that other Scripture says lead to our reception of salvation (like Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38, and Acts 3:19).
Seabass
Active Member
Christ died and shed His blood for every man (Heb 2:9) yet every man will not be saved (Mt 7:13) for every man will not obey Christ for Christ is the Saviour to all them that obey Him (Heb 5:9). The Bible nowhere teaches the blood of Christ randomlly, unconditionally washes away the sin of some people and not others for reasons completely unknown.
Therefore those who obey Christ's NT law are the only ones that will be saved by the blood of Christ:
--Christ washed us from our sins in His own blood Rev 1:5
--Christ shed His blood that washes away sins in His death, Jn 19:34
--hence the sinner must have access into the death of Christ to have access to His shed blood that washes away sins
--by no coincidence in Rom 6 sinners can OBEY Christ by submitting to water baptism whereby sinners are baptized into the death of Christ...."so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death....we are buried with him by baptism into death..." then in baptism Christ's blood washes away the sinner's sins.
--those who deny the necessity of water baptism deny the only access to having their sins washed away by the blood of Christ. Nowhere does the BIble teach 'faith only' or some 'sinner's prayer' or some 'spirit baptism' buries one into the death of Christ.
--no obedience = no washing away of sins
--obedience to Christ earns/merits nothing.
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Seabass
Active Member
Faith onlyist have to refuse to see the difference between obedience to God and good works else it implodes faith onlyism.
There is no salvation BEFORE one obeys..Paul wrote in Rom 6:16 'obedience UNTO righteousness'.
If one is not obeying God's will then the only other alternative one is doing is living in disobedience-rebellion to God's will and there is NO VERSE that teaches 'disobedience unto righteousness' for wrong doing can never lead on to be righteous (right doing).
NO VERSE teaches the idea that God randomlly, unconditionally saves some disobedient rebellious people where then after they are saved they can obey. This idea exists only in the imaginations of faith onlyists.
Azriel
Active Member
Here's your post that I replied to:
So which is it? First you say one thing then you say the opposite thing.
Azriel
Active Member
You can't be obedient until you are saved. The reason for that is because before you are saved you're a slave to sin. Obedience before salvation position doesn't hold water.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Those two are not opposites.
There is no merit to a servant doing what his master commands (Luke 17:10). Yet, He is not really one's master if one does not obey Him.
Doug Brents
Active Member
You have it backwards. You cannot be saved until you are obedient. Can you be saved before you confess that Jesus is your Lord? (Rom 10:9-10 says you can't).
Seabass
Active Member
Both obedience AND the blood of Christ saves. Nowhere does the Bible teach just one thing only saves:
faith saves Eph 2:8
grace saves Tts 2:11
obedience saves Heb 5:9
blood of Christ saves Rev 1:5
hope saves Rom 8:24
water baptism saves 1Pet 3:21
confession saves Rom 10:9-10
repentance saves Lk 13:3
etc....
Maurice
Active Member
When a person genuinely repents and believes in Christ, the Bible says that he is given new spiritual life. “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,”
Paul says. “But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions” Eph. 2:1, 4–5
When that happens, our life changes—not immediately, not quickly, not even necessarily steadily. But it does change. We begin to bear fruit.
Christ is who makes us Alive.
Paul says. “But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions” Eph. 2:1, 4–5
When that happens, our life changes—not immediately, not quickly, not even necessarily steadily. But it does change. We begin to bear fruit.
Christ is who makes us Alive.
Fool4Christ
Active Member
Yeah work salvation that trick never works. Dress it up however you like but it all boils down to human beings having a hand in their own salvation.
With that in mind one thing we must be constantly on guard against is any thought that those works are the cause of our salvation. There is always a danger that when we begin to see obedience in our lives, we’ll subtly begin to rely on that fruit for our salvation, instead of on Christ. Guard against that temptation, Christian.
With that in mind one thing we must be constantly on guard against is any thought that those works are the cause of our salvation. There is always a danger that when we begin to see obedience in our lives, we’ll subtly begin to rely on that fruit for our salvation, instead of on Christ. Guard against that temptation, Christian.
civic
Active Member
Please join in
Obadiah
Active Member
When you stand before God at the judgment, I wonder what you plan to do or say in order to convince him to count you righteous and admit you to all the blessings of his kingdom? What good deed or godly attitude will you pull out of your pocket to impress him? Will you pull out your church attendance? Your family life? Your spotless thought life? The fact that you haven’t done anything really heinous in your own eyes? I wonder what you’ll hold up before him while saying, “God, on account of this, justify me!”
I’ll tell you what every Christian whose faith is in Christ alone will do, by God’s grace. They will simply and quietly point to Jesus. And this will be their plea: “O God, do not look for any righteousness in my own life. Look at your Son. Count me righteous not because of anything I’ve done or anything I am, but because of him. He lived the life I should have lived. He died the death that I deserve. I have renounced all other trusts, and my plea is him alone. Justify me, O God, because of Jesus.”
Greg Gilbert, What Is the Gospel?
I’ll tell you what every Christian whose faith is in Christ alone will do, by God’s grace. They will simply and quietly point to Jesus. And this will be their plea: “O God, do not look for any righteousness in my own life. Look at your Son. Count me righteous not because of anything I’ve done or anything I am, but because of him. He lived the life I should have lived. He died the death that I deserve. I have renounced all other trusts, and my plea is him alone. Justify me, O God, because of Jesus.”
Greg Gilbert, What Is the Gospel?
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