"Works Salvation"

Doug, I'm going to first finish you first post to me then I'll pick here if time permits before I leave Friday for Florida via Ga.
Stop by as you pass through GA. I live between Atlanta and Athens. Stop in, we can have a coffee and chat.
Doug, NO ONE needs to know any truth before they are BORN AGAIN, that's impossible,
We MUST hear the Gospel of Jesus before we can be born again. We don't have to know everything, but we do have to know enough to know we cannot save ourselves, Jesus died to pay for the sin we could not pay for, and that He offers to remove our sin if we place our faith in Him. Then He will remove our sin and save us. But He does not remove our sin before we even know who it is that paid the price for us, let alone exhibiting our faith in Him.
and even after we are born of God, we are like infants, we learn slowly by taking in truth beginning with milk and then move on to the meat of the word.
This part at least is very true.
 
Stop by as you pass through GA. I live between Atlanta and Athens. Stop in, we can have a coffee and chat.

We MUST hear the Gospel of Jesus before we can be born again. We don't have to know everything, but we do have to know enough to know we cannot save ourselves, Jesus died to pay for the sin we could not pay for, and that He offers to remove our sin if we place our faith in Him. Then He will remove our sin and save us. But He does not remove our sin before we even know who it is that paid the price for us, let alone exhibiting our faith in Him.

This part at least is very true.
hey we agree on something.
 
actually I used one passage for this, in revelation
Show me the Scripture. I have posted much Scripture, but have seen very little from you.
Instead of being humble and searching to try to find out where I am getting this from. you keep using the same argument

Zech 14: 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

This is AFTER the great battle when all nations came against jerusalem. and God struck them down. at the return of the king.

this is when he is ruling in Jerusalem (not in heaven)
LOL, no. This has already happened. This is not about end-times, but about what happened around the fall of Jerusalem. The figurative language balances the physical destruction versus the Spiritual salvation.
Yes. Only the saved will enter the 1000 years.

but they will have children. and their children will not be born saved, they will be required to accept Grace as your and I were
Where does it say that there will be children born during the 1000 years? I have never seen that in Scripture.
Again, the above passage is a propecy of a time when Jesus will rule here on earth. there is still sin. and people are still being punished.

This CAN NOT BE HEAVEN
You haven't stuck with the Word; that is the problem. Jesus does not come to rule on Earth at or after the Second Coming.
Your right there is not

but as i just proved, There is sin when Jesus is in Jerusalem ruling. when people do not come to worship him from all nations..
The prophecy from Zech 14 you referenced is talking about the time NOW, when Jesus rules the Church (which is now His Holy City, Jerusalem. Not the physical place in the middle east). Yes, there is still sin now, while Jesus reigns over the Church. But there will be no sin in Heaven, so this cannot be a depiction of the time after the second coming.
 
Show me the Scripture. I have posted much Scripture, but have seen very little from you.
how much do you want. I can fill muliple posts with muliple passages of scripture.


LOL, no. This has already happened.
when?

when did that happen. and when did this happen?

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,

I know of 70AD. but that was one nation. not all nations


The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;

The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.

But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,

Half of them toward the eastern sea

And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 nd this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

13 ;It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;

14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.

15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague
be.

And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


when did all this happen. I need to see dates. events. and prove everthing God said here has happened. Because as I look back in history. nothing even remotely resembling this has ever happened
This is not about end-times, but about what happened around the fall of Jerusalem. The figurative language balances the physical destruction versus the Spiritual salvation.
this is not the fall of jerusalem

1. There was one nation. rome, that caused jerusalem to fall
2. The lord did not return after this battle boots on the ground and split a mountain in half.
3. Rome was not punished

I can go on and on..
Where does it say that there will be children born during the 1000 years? I have never seen that in Scripture.
Again, if you studied you would see

Is 11:
But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

5. Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.

7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;

And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.

9 ;They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord

little Child
Nursing Child
Weaned child

Alot of kids here when you claim no children will be here.

again, when did these things happene

You haven't stuck with the Word; that is the problem. Jesus does not come to rule on Earth at or after the Second Coming.
I just gave you multiple passages which prove my point..

show me when those things happened
The prophecy from Zech 14 you referenced is talking about the time NOW, when Jesus rules the Church (which is now His Holy City, Jerusalem. Not the physical place in the middle east). Yes, there is still sin now, while Jesus reigns over the Church. But there will be no sin in Heaven, so this cannot be a depiction of the time after the second coming.
I just posted all of Zech 14. please show me when those things have occurred. or are occurring?

prophesy is distinct. it can not be twisted or nullified. it it says it will happen, it will happen, and we will know when the events took place.

show me the historical records of when these things took place
 
when did that happen. and when did this happen?

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,

I know of 70AD. but that was one nation. not all nations
The Roman army was a multinational army.
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;

The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.

But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,

Half of them toward the eastern sea

And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 nd this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

13 ;It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the Lord will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;

14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.

15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague
be.

And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


when did all this happen. I need to see dates. events. and prove everthing God said here has happened. Because as I look back in history. nothing even remotely resembling this has ever happened

this is not the fall of jerusalem

1. There was one nation. rome, that caused jerusalem to fall
2. The lord did not return after this battle boots on the ground and split a mountain in half.
3. Rome was not punished

I can go on and on..
1. the army of Rome was a multinational army. Rome ruled the known world at the time, and all the nations it ruled were part of the army.
2. The splitting of the mount of olives is a figurative depiction of events that occurred during the 70AD fall of Jerusalem.
3. Rome was punished. Many plagues and problems fell on them, and they fell as a nation and as a power.
Again, if you studied you would see

Is 11:
But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

5. Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.

7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;

And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.

9 ;They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord

little Child
Nursing Child
Weaned child

Alot of kids here when you claim no children will be here.
Will there be cobras in Heaven? Or vipers? or lions, or oxen or sheep? No. None of those will be present in Heaven. This is all figurative language of peace and tranquility.
again, when did these things happene

I just gave you multiple passages which prove my point..

show me when those things happened

I just posted all of Zech 14. please show me when those things have occurred. or are occurring?

prophesy is distinct. it can not be twisted or nullified. it it says it will happen, it will happen, and we will know when the events took place.

show me the historical records of when these things took place
Prophecy is usually distinct, but sometimes is not recognized as prophecy until it has been fulfilled (Hos 11:1). And frequently there are multiple fulfillments of the same prophecy. But Zech 14 is primarily pointing to events that happened around the fall of Jerusalem. It was in Jesus that "living waters" flowed out of Jerusalem, and in Jesus that He became King over all the Earth rather than just over Israel. Those who "go up to Jerusalem for the feast of booths" are those who are in the Church. It is we who worship God, but the rest of the nations fester in spiritual death.
 
The Roman army was a multinational army.

1. the army of Rome was a multinational army. Rome ruled the known world at the time, and all the nations it ruled were part of the army.
2. The splitting of the mount of olives is a figurative depiction of events that occurred during the 70AD fall of Jerusalem.
3. Rome was punished. Many plagues and problems fell on them, and they fell as a nation and as a power.
lol. Everything my friend. A paetial
Prophecy is not fulfilled prophecy

Whe did Jesus put boots on the ground

When was the mountain split

When did the rivers flow

Why was Jesus let not inhabited

When died eyes melt from sockets and skin well you know

Will there be cobras in Heaven? Or vipers? or lions, or oxen or sheep? No. None of those will be present in Heaven. This is all figurative language of peace and tranquility.
Um no. You can not do this to prophecy

So you proved my point thank you
Prophecy is usually distinct, but sometimes is not recognized as prophecy until it has been fulfilled (Hos 11:1). And frequently there are multiple fulfillments of the same prophecy. But Zech 14 is primarily pointing to events that happened around the fall of Jerusalem. It was in Jesus that "living waters" flowed out of Jerusalem, and in Jesus that He became King over all the Earth rather than just over Israel. Those who "go up to Jerusalem for the feast of booths" are those who are in the Church. It is we who worship God, but the rest of the nations fester in spiritual death.
Nothing in Zach 14 happened in 70 ad

If this is your answer thank you. I will move on
 
PHYSICAL DEATH

Good God.. so your law today is lesser than the law God gave mosses.

ok I got it..
The New Covenant law is not "lesser than" the law God gave Moses, it is more. Our law is to love one another. That means if you hate someone you've committed murder in your heart. But when we abide in Christ He is the one that matures the fruit of the Spirit in us. The two types of sin are both perfected when we abide in Christ. He is the Author and the Finisher of our faith, not us. We just need to abide. Period.
 
Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?
Absolutely NOT

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"by Grace you have been SAVED, not of works less anyone should boast"

Noah was saved by Grace thru Faith, afterwards God told him to build the Ark

The building of the Ark was the outward manifestation of the inward working of Faith by Grace

Grace and Faith ALWAYS precede the works God calls us to do.
 
Show me the Scripture. I have posted much Scripture, but have seen very little from you.

LOL, no. This has already happened. This is not about end-times, but about what happened around the fall of Jerusalem. The figurative language balances the physical destruction versus the Spiritual salvation.

Where does it say that there will be children born during the 1000 years? I have never seen that in Scripture.

You haven't stuck with the Word; that is the problem. Jesus does not come to rule on Earth at or after the Second Coming.

The prophecy from Zech 14 you referenced is talking about the time NOW, when Jesus rules the Church (which is now His Holy City, Jerusalem. Not the physical place in the middle east). Yes, there is still sin now, while Jesus reigns over the Church. But there will be no sin in Heaven, so this cannot be a depiction of the time after the second coming.

Zechariah chapter 14 has not occurred AND can ONLY occur at the 2nd Coming
 
@Eternally-Grateful
well your as wrong as he is. Jesus is ruling, but not with a rod of iron. if you look at the world and think Jesus is ruling. I pity what heaven will look like
I do not have time to enter into a discussion of this subject, but, would love to pick this up around the 12th Of July when I should return, the Lord willing on both accounts.

Actually eschatology is my favorite subject to discuss, and in the past year or so, maybe longer, I have done very little debating on this topic, but truly desire to gravitate back to it. We shall see who is wrong, I am very convinced I can hold my hold against against most on this subject since, I have written and debated on this particular subject for over fifty years, with and against men stronger than you most likely and have more than protected the truth God has entrusted me with, this is not a man just putting on the armour, I am almost ready to take it off. Looking forward to defending God's truth.
 
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Stop by as you pass through GA. I live between Atlanta and Athens. Stop in, we can have a coffee and chat.
Doug, you live most likely less than two hours from me, probably. I live in between Greenville and Clemson. Maybe one day we can.
 
@Doug Brents
The prophecy from Zech 14 you referenced is talking about the time NOW, when Jesus rules the Church (which is now His Holy City, Jerusalem. Not the physical place in the middle east). Yes, there is still sin now, while Jesus reigns over the Church. But there will be no sin in Heaven, so this cannot be a depiction of the time after the second coming.
(y)
 
Everywhere in Scripture there are statements that man must do this, that, or the other IN ORDER TO BE saved.
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Rom 10:9-10
Mark 16:16, and there are many others.
Good morning Doug, and greetings,

As an old solider of the cross, when I see words like: "There are statements that man must do this, that, or the other IN ORDER TO BE saved" ~ this gets my attention immediately, and it should; woe unto me, in that day when that statement does not.

Most use the words save/saved/salvation in only one sense, and that sense is salvation from condemnation and sin, to eternal life, in heaven. Most have no biblical knowledge beyond that, even those who attend worship services weekly in this world. That's the sad state of mystery Babylon in our day, its religious sector.

1) Acts 2:38 ~“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Doug, if we lift any scripture from its context, then we have taken the very first step toward teaching a false doctrine, CONTEXT is king and will always drive the true biblical interpretation for us, it never fails, no never.

Doug, interpretations must agree with their context.​

Remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext.

A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret. Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s true meaning by the text. Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information. A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.

Using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true. Doug, we all have had our words used out of context before, and we hated the corruption of our intent and meaning. We must sure we never do it with the precious Word of God.

This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.

Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why you asked your teacher to use them in a sentence before you would try to spell them in a spelling bee! Even if we use a verse to teach a true point, we must make sure we still honor its context. For using the wrong verse to teach the right point is the first subtle step to heresy.

For me, Acts 2:38 is very easily to understand in its context and the overall teachings of the scriptures. Peter, had just finished a short message concerning, what those at Jerusalem were witnessing was the results of the prophesy of the prophet Joel. Peter then said: "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" He then proceeded to informed them, that death had no power over him; he went on to prove that these things were prophesied in their own scriptures by David himself, concerning Christ, and his death, and resurrection, and after his resurrection he was exalted to David' throne, ruling over the tabernacle of David that had fallen in Adam raised you in Christ to sit with him legally speaking. Once they heard how THEY had rejected and killed him, some were pricked in their hearts, and said:

Acts 2:37​

“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Doug, the key of understanding Acts 2:38, is understanding Acts 2:37! Peter, a man of God saw the deep conviction of what just happened after they heard the word of God, and Peter understood what it meant to be pricked in one's heart according to the word of God...he knew that was a evidence of regeneration, thereby, he said what he did in Acts 2:38. Before we look at Acts 2:38, let me add this:

In Acts 7, we have one of, it not the most powerful sermon ever preached by someone other than Jesus' sermon on the mount, by Stephen. After this man of God was finished we read:

Acts 7:54​

“When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.”

Doug, do you know the difference between being pricked in one's heart, and being cut to the hearts? I think not, because of what you teach concerning Acts 2:38. No pun intended just Trying to help another brother see clearly. Doug, Peter knew the difference, and that's why he said what he said in Acts 2:38! Selah!

Now, Acts 2:38 said: 1) Acts 2:38 ~“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Peter. the man of God knew that God had open their hearts and cause them to be humbly pricked in their spirits which moved them to ask what should we do, and Peter rightly told them what to do ~ by using the word "for" and in this verse it mean BECAUSE OF, (based on what Peter was witnessing), the word for does not mean in order to obtained, Peter carefully used words based upon what he heard and witnesses! For is used in the scriptures many times over to mean "because of"~proof, no problem.

Mark 1:44​

“And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.”

How is it used here? The very same manner in which Peter used the word for.
Acts 3:19
Coming back to address this one.
 
Acts 2:37
“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Doug, the key of understanding Acts 2:38, is understanding Acts 2:37! Peter, a man of God saw the deep conviction of what just happened after they heard the word of God, and Peter understood what it meant to be pricked in one's heart according to the word of God...he knew that was a evidence of regeneration..........
I know that I am "cutting in line" here, but I have to ask why Peter would understand that being pricked in one's heart means that they had been born again? There is no statement in all the Bible making such a claim. If they had been born again, why would they need to ask what they should do? To be regenerated is what happens when one is saved. The one born again is no longer a sinner, no longer dead in trespasses and sins.

Here again, you seem to have altered the meaning of words and phrases in order to make it align with your beliefs rather than frame your beliefs from what the Bible actually says. There is absolutely nothing about the words "pricked in the heart" that indicates being born again.

In fact, even John Gill doesn't make such a claim. He says:

they were pricked in their hearts; the word of God entered into them, and was as a sharp sword in them, which cut and laid open their hearts, and the sin and wickedness of them; they saw themselves guilty of the crime laid to their charge, and were filled with remorse of conscience for it; they felt pain at their hearts, and much uneasiness, and were seized with horror and trembling; they were wounded in their spirits, being hewn and cut down by the prophets and apostles of the Lord, and slain by the words of his mouth; they were as dead men in their own apprehension; and indeed, a prick, a cut, or wound in the heart is mortal

None of that speaks of being born again. It is not until they have repented and been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ that they receive the gift, the indwelling, Holy Spirit. That is the description of born again of water and Spirit.
 
@Eternally-Grateful

I do not have time to enter into a discussion of this subject, but, would love to pick this up around the 12th Of July when I should return, the Lord willing on both accounts.

Actually eschatology is my favorite subject to discuss, and in the past year or so, maybe longer, I have done very little debating on this topic, but truly desire to gravitate back to it. We shall see who is wrong, I am very convinced I can hold my hold against against most on this subject since, I have written and debated on this particular subject for over fifty years, with and against men stronger than you most likely and have more than protected the truth God has entrusted me with, this is not a man just putting on the armour, I am almost ready to take it off. Looking forward to defending God's truth.
maybe you can do what I asked him and share when the things that I posted occured?

because that is the only way anyone will show me that those things are fulfilled.

You can be convinced if you wish, but that is your goal.

when did these things occur?

I gave him Is 11. when in the past did these occure. I would like to see actual reports of people who witnessed these things.

Is 11:
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

5. Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.

7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;

And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.

9 ;They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord


then we have Zech 14. Again, when did these events occur. I need eyewitness accounts. And please. saying they are symbolic is not an answer. If that is what you are going to say. then there will be no discussion
there is no symbolic prophecy.. God said I tell you thinks before they happen. so that when they do. you will know I am the Lord your God.
He also said if a prophet makes a prophecy, and those things do not occur.. well don't be afraid of him, he is a false prophet. and his words did not come from God (duet 18: 22)

Zech 14:
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

when did these things happen?


6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord— Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea; In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The Lord is one,” And His name one.
10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses. 11 The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

when did any of this happen?



12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

when did this happen? Is there any pictures. or eyewitness accounts of this happening?



16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Again when did these things occur. is it occurring today? I look at jerusalem and there is division. war. fighting, there is no peace.


so this is your work. you have to show me these things and how and when they have been fulfilled LITERALLY.

otherwise. there is no conversation
 
@Red Baker and @Doug Brents

here is another one. Jesus read from the scroll and say today is the day.. So we see the first half was literally fulfilled. so when was the rest fulfilled?

61 “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,

Jesus said this is all fulfilled

Luke 4: 20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing

but lets continue, why did he stop there


And the day of vengeance of our God;

To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”

4 And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.
5 Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks,
And the sons of the foreigner
Shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6
But you shall be named the priests of the Lord,
They shall call you the servants of our God.
You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,
And in their glory you shall boast.
7 Instead of your shame you shall have double honor,
And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion.
Therefore in their land they shall possess double;
Everlasting joy shall be theirs.

8
“For I, the Lord, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.
9 Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the Lord has blessed.”

10
I will greatly rejoice in the Lord,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

A promise to all nations. peace. prosperity. A name that is great. and the restoration of Israel. who lives in peace after this great day of the lord happens..


when? is it today? Wars and rumors of wars. Nation rising against nation. is this not what we see today?
 
The New Covenant law is not "lesser than" the law God gave Moses, it is more.
It can;t be more

the law said stumble in one point

You say we can do these sins and we are ok

but if we do those sins we are not
Our law is to love one another. That means if you hate someone you've committed murder in your heart. But when we abide in Christ He is the one that matures the fruit of the Spirit in us. The two types of sin are both perfected when we abide in Christ. He is the Author and the Finisher of our faith, not us. We just need to abide. Period.
Yes.

But spiritual death is according to the law..

break one command (the wage of sin is death)

there are no grace or menial sins or whatever they call it. That is a catholic flaw and lie
 
Zechariah chapter 14 has not occurred AND can ONLY occur at the 2nd Coming
Zechariah 14 is widely interpreted as depicting events at the end of the age Zechariah lived in and the beginning of the Messianic age, specifically focusing on the "Day of the Lord". This day involves both judgment upon Jerusalem's enemies and the subsequent establishment of God's kingdom on Earth.
We are in the Messianic age, and God's Kingdom (the Church) has already been established on Earth. This is not talking about the second coming.
 
Good morning Doug, and greetings,

As an old solider of the cross, when I see words like: "There are statements that man must do this, that, or the other IN ORDER TO BE saved" ~ this gets my attention immediately, and it should; woe unto me, in that day when that statement does not.

Most use the words save/saved/salvation in only one sense, and that sense is salvation from condemnation and sin, to eternal life, in heaven. Most have no biblical knowledge beyond that, even those who attend worship services weekly in this world. That's the sad state of mystery Babylon in our day, its religious sector.

1) Acts 2:38 ~“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Doug, if we lift any scripture from its context, then we have taken the very first step toward teaching a false doctrine, CONTEXT is king and will always drive the true biblical interpretation for us, it never fails, no never.

Doug, interpretations must agree with their context.​

Remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext.

A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret. Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s true meaning by the text. Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information. A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.

Using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true. Doug, we all have had our words used out of context before, and we hated the corruption of our intent and meaning. We must sure we never do it with the precious Word of God.

This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.

Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why you asked your teacher to use them in a sentence before you would try to spell them in a spelling bee! Even if we use a verse to teach a true point, we must make sure we still honor its context. For using the wrong verse to teach the right point is the first subtle step to heresy.

For me, Acts 2:38 is very easily to understand in its context and the overall teachings of the scriptures. Peter, had just finished a short message concerning, what those at Jerusalem were witnessing was the results of the prophesy of the prophet Joel. Peter then said: "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" He then proceeded to informed them, that death had no power over him; he went on to prove that these things were prophesied in their own scriptures by David himself, concerning Christ, and his death, and resurrection, and after his resurrection he was exalted to David' throne, ruling over the tabernacle of David that had fallen in Adam raised you in Christ to sit with him legally speaking. Once they heard how THEY had rejected and killed him, some were pricked in their hearts, and said:

Acts 2:37​

“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Doug, the key of understanding Acts 2:38, is understanding Acts 2:37! Peter, a man of God saw the deep conviction of what just happened after they heard the word of God, and Peter understood what it meant to be pricked in one's heart according to the word of God...he knew that was a evidence of regeneration,
I am with you all the way up to here. All of what you say about context above is absolutely correct. So why are you projecting your preconception about what Peter understood into Acts 2:37? Peter did not interpret them having been pricked in the heart as evidence of regeneration. If he did, then he would not have told them that they still needed to have their sins removed.
thereby, he said what he did in Acts 2:38. Before we look at Acts 2:38, let me add this:

In Acts 7, we have one of, it not the most powerful sermon ever preached by someone other than Jesus' sermon on the mount, by Stephen. After this man of God was finished we read:

Acts 7:54​

“When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.”

Doug, do you know the difference between being pricked in one's heart, and being cut to the hearts? I think not, because of what you teach concerning Acts 2:38. No pun intended just Trying to help another brother see clearly. Doug, Peter knew the difference, and that's why he said what he said in Acts 2:38! Selah!
Yes, there is a difference. It is the same difference between being crushed and being broken (Matt 21:44).
Now, Acts 2:38 said: 1) Acts 2:38 ~“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

Peter. the man of God knew that God had open their hearts and cause them to be humbly pricked in their spirits which moved them to ask what should we do, and Peter rightly told them what to do ~ by using the word "for" and in this verse it mean BECAUSE OF, (based on what Peter was witnessing), the word for does not mean in order to obtained, Peter carefully used words based upon what he heard and witnesses! For is used in the scriptures many times over to mean "because of"~proof, no problem.
Sorry, but you are again projecting your personal bias and not allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. First off, there is no division between "repent" and "be baptized" in Acts 2:38. They are both to be done "for" the remission of sins. And in Acts 3:19 we read that we must "repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away". If in chapter 3 repentance must be done "in order to receive" forgiveness, then in chapter 2 it must have the same meaning. And that means that baptism also must be done "in order to receive" forgiveness (salvation from sin).

Mark 1:44​

“And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.”

How is it used here? The very same manner in which Peter used the word for.
Yes, "for" ("eis" in the Greek) can mean "in order to receive" and also "because you have received". But the usage here in Mark is very different than the usage in Acts, as I demonstrated above. You must use the closest, most relevant usage of the word in question, not just some random usage that fits your personal bias.
 
Zechariah 14 is widely interpreted as depicting events at the end of the age Zechariah lived in and the beginning of the Messianic age, specifically focusing on the "Day of the Lord". This day involves both judgment upon Jerusalem's enemies and the subsequent establishment of God's kingdom on Earth.
We are in the Messianic age, and God's Kingdom (the Church) has already been established on Earth. This is not talking about the second coming.
No Messianic age has been established on earth for the simple fact that satan is the god of this age until MESSIAH Returns.

There has been no Resurrection of the Saints which only occurs at His 2nd Coming

Day of the Lord has not arrived for satan and this age of rebellion continues AND no JUDGMENT has FALLEN upon them = Yet
 
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