"Works Salvation"

[Doug Brents]

you claim Christ will not rule on Davids throne for 1000 years did you not?

Christ rules the Kingdom of God (David's throne) now, and will continue to reign in Heaven. His kingdom will NEVER end, but this world will end.

The thousand years occurs in Heaven, and Jesus will continue to be King during that time as well, and on into eternity.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Christ rules the Kingdom of God (David's throne) now,

Um no. Davids throne is in Jerusalem in the temple

Jesus is ruling from HIS throne now

and will continue to reign in Heaven. His kingdom will NEVER end, but this world will end.

The thousand years occurs in Heaven, and Jesus will continue to be King during that time as well, and on into eternity.

Um no

People are punished for sin then, there is no sin in heaven, nor will he need to rule with a rod of Iron in heaven

 

[Doug Brents]

Um no. Davids throne is in Jerusalem in the temple

Jesus is ruling from HIS throne now

Jesus' throne IS David's throne (Luke 1:32-33). The temple in Jerusalem is a copy, a shadow, of the Temple in Heaven (Heb 8:5).

Um no

People are punished for sin then, there is no sin in heaven, nor will he need to rule with a rod of Iron in heaven

Where did I ever say there was or He did?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Jesus' throne IS David's throne (Luke 1:32-33). The temple in Jerusalem is a copy, a shadow, of the Temple in Heaven (Heb 8:5).

God promised David. A literal promise

Where did I ever say there was or He did?

The bible says when Jesus is rulling in Jerusalem. people who do not come to him will be punished.

so your right, you did not. the word did.

 

[charismaticlady]

when you seperate sins saying some are so bad they lead to death, and others do not. Your downplaying sin..

I didn't separate sins, God did. Here are the two types of sin, one God says a sacrifice can cover it, and the other against God's law no sacrifice can cover it, they stone them to death. Numbers 15:22-29 and 30-36. John tells us there are sins that do not lead to death. 1 John 5:16-17
16 If any one may see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and He shall give to him life to those sinning not unto death; there is sin to death, not concerning it do I speak that he may beseech; 17 all unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not unto death.

If you look at 1 John 1:7 you see a person walking in the light. In other words they are born again and been freed from sins unto death. But the blood of Jesus is cleansing them of some type of sin. Well, it can't be sins unto death because no sacrifice ever covered them. So it has to be the only type of sin that is covered by sacrifice in our schoolmaster, the Old Testament, which are sins not unto death. So what are they? 2 Peter 1:5-7 if done leads to never stumbling. 2 Peter 1:10-11

thats why we remain in a state of grace.

Grace is the power of God in us called the Holy Spirit. It is NOT a license to sin.

Of you say you have no sin, you are decieved. those are an apostles words who walked with Christ not me

please refer to him.

1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are those in darkness, BEFORE repentance and being cleansed of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. If you have no unrighteousness in you it is not a lie to agree that the power of the blood of Jesus has cleansed us and provided us with a Spirit-led conscience. 1 John 3:21-22 "21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

It is interesting to not that 100% of my prayers I've received for the last 48 years. It is also interesting that for the 30 years prior to 1977 not one of my prayers was ever answered, and I even questioned if God existed.

 

[Doug Brents]

God promised David. A literal promise

A literal promise for a literal throne. It doesn't cease being a literal throne just because it is Spiritual rather then physical. As Heb 8:5 makes clear, the Spiritual Heavenly temple is more "real" than the physical temple, so why would you think that David's physical throne would be more real than Jesus' Spiritual throne?

The bible says when Jesus is rulling in Jerusalem. people who do not come to him will be punished.

so your right, you did not. the word did.

Which Jerusalem is that talking about? The Jerusalem on Earth? Or the Jerusalem in Heaven? As Jesus told the woman at the well, the time is now here (all the time since Jesus was at the well to now and to the end of the world) when we will not worship in Jerusalem, but in each person's heart. Jesus rules NOW, and His kingdom will never end. His Kingdom began during His first coming to Earth (as the prophecy in Daniel describes) and will be an unending, eternal, everlasting Kingdom.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

A literal promise for a literal throne. It doesn't cease being a literal throne just because it is Spiritual rather then physical. As Heb 8:5 makes clear, the Spiritual Heavenly temple is more "real" than the physical temple, so why would you think that David's physical throne would be more real than Jesus' Spiritual throne?

This is called using your belief system to interpret the word

Jesus keeps his promises. He is God

Which Jerusalem is that talking about? The Jerusalem on Earth? Or the Jerusalem in Heaven? As Jesus told the woman at the well, the time is now here (all the time since Jesus was at the well to now and to the end of the world) when we will not worship in Jerusalem, but in each person's heart. Jesus rules NOW, and His kingdom will never end. His Kingdom began during His first coming to Earth (as the prophecy in Daniel describes) and will be an unending, eternal, everlasting Kingdom.

Again there is sin. Is there sin in heaven. No

So it’s earthly Jerusalem

It’s simple. Just open up and read the prophesies

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I didn't separate sins, God did

No god did not.

He gave the law and said obey every word at all times or your cursed

The smallest white lie makes you just as guilty as the sin of murder.

Now society sins yes there are greater sins that why he have death penalty for some and not ithers

 

[Doug Brents]

This is called using your belief system to interpret the word

Jesus keeps his promises. He is God

Of course He does. But there is nowhere in Scripture that says that Jesus' Kingdom will be an Earthly Kingdom. As a matter of fact we are told that His Kingdom is NOT of this world (John 18:36). I am not using my belief system to interpret the Word. I am letting the Word create my beliefs.

Again there is sin. Is there sin in heaven. No

So it’s earthly Jerusalem

It’s simple. Just open up and read the prophesies

Jesus will not reign in Earthly Jerusalem. His kingdom is not of this world. We, His Kingdom, are in this world now, and He rules us from Heaven, but His throne is in Heaven where He will be taking His Kingdom when this world ends (John 14:3).

 

[charismaticlady]

No god did not.

He gave the law and said obey every word at all times or your cursed

The smallest white lie makes you just as guilty as the sin of murder.

Now society sins yes there are greater sins that why he have death penalty for some and not ithers

Why does John show two? One unto death, and one NOT unto death?

By the way, James 2 is talking about the commandments from the Old Covenant where if you break one you've broken them all, but verse 12 is the New Covenant the law of liberty from sin. Did you ever notice that?

 

[Red Baker]

@Doug Brents

No, I don't say otherwise.

You absolutely say otherwise, and I may not prove this to you, since it is not in my power, wisdom to do so, only the Spirit of the Living God can do that work of opening man's blinded hearts, and the ignorance that most men live in.

Doug, I believe children of God, (especially so those that handle the word of God) should be patience unto all men in presenting truth, up to a point, remembering that we ourselves were sometimes in their place, and even now, are still learning truth and will until death of our bodies. So, we shall see where this shall go, and I'm pretty sure I already have a good idea the end results, yet God has commanded his children to go and teach all nations, etc.

He was a believer in God before Peter arrived. But that would have only made him saved under the OT, not the NT. He was now in the NT, and needed to believe in Jesus to be saved under the NT. He did not yet even know the Gospel of Jesus, so He was not saved under the NT before Peter preached to him.

You said: "He was a believer in God before Peter arrived." Yes, he was. The declaration of the word of God said clearly:

1st John 5:1​

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

Peter said to Cornelius:

Acts 10:36​

“The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

According to God's word spoken by Peter, Cornelius knew about the word God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by him, but with very limited knowledge of the truth.

You said: "But that would have only made him saved under the OT, not the NT." Doug, what difference does it makes if one is born again under the OT, and not the NT? Doug, the only difference would be lack of knowledge, if anything, and in most cases that would indeed be the case ~ and it is if one truly understand Mark 16:16 which no baptismal regenerationist does. A verse we shall consider. Doug, what would a person like you do with Hebrews 11, since all of them were under the OT, thereby OT believers, I can only imagine.

You said: "He was now in the NT, and needed to believe in Jesus to be saved under the NT." Proven above that he already knew and believe, but with very limited knowledge of the truth. God was opening up the door to the Gentiles nations and those whom he was calling, he was going to instruct them, and teach them the truth as never before. Before they were on the outside looking in, now the door is open unto them and for the most part for them mainly.

You said: "He did not yet even know the Gospel of Jesus, so He was not saved under the NT before Peter preached to him." Doug, you are one confused person, your doctrine of baptismal regeneration blinded your eyes to the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. So, Doug, what are you going to do with all those saints that died in faith in the OT, having never lived to see or even hear very much of Jesus Christ, most what they were taught stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. So much was hidden from them. You remind me of the Primitive Baptist who teach that all who join their churches must be rebaptized into the true kingdom of God which they claim for themselves! SOrta like you beleive that Cornelius need to be saved under the NT, as strange as that sounds! How about the apostles? They came were born again under the OT? Your fortress of faith has too many holes in it to be secure.

that is a Satan spawned lie to get us to think we are saved but leave us wallowing in sin and condemned to Hell. Scripture is very clear that we must hear the Word of the Gospel in order to believe it, and we must believe it in order to call on the name of Jesus, and we must call on the name of Jesus to become saved (Rom 10:9-14). Everywhere in Scripture there are statements that man must do this, that, or the other IN ORDER TO BE saved.
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Rom 10:9-10
Mark 16:16, and there are many others.

First of all, God's children do not wallowing in sin. I know well you five step of salvation, I have heard it a thousand times over.

You said: "Everywhere in Scripture there are statements that man must do this, that, or the other IN ORDER TO BE saved."

I am coming back to make a separate post addressing each verse as brief as I can. Long post folks generally do read as you know.

 

[DavidTree]

@Doug Brents

You absolutely say otherwise, and I may not prove this to you, since it is not in my power, wisdom to do so, only the Spirit of the Living God can do that work of opening man's blinded hearts, and the ignorance that most men live in.

Doug, I believe children of God, (especially so those that handle the word of God) should be patience unto all men in presenting truth, up to a point, remembering that we ourselves were sometimes in their place, and even now, are still learning truth and will until death of our bodies. So, we shall see where this shall go, and I'm pretty sure I already have a good idea the end results, yet God has commanded his children to go and teach all nations, etc.

You said: "He was a believer in God before Peter arrived." Yes, he was. The declaration of the word of God said clearly:

1st John 5:1​

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

Peter said to Cornelius:

Acts 10:36​

“The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

According to God's word spoken by Peter, Cornelius knew about the word God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by him, but with very limited knowledge of the truth.

You said: "But that would have only made him saved under the OT, not the NT." Doug, what difference does it makes if one is born again under the OT, and not the NT? Doug, the only difference would be lack of knowledge, if anything, and in most cases that would indeed be the case ~ and it is if one truly understand Mark 16:16 which no baptismal regenerationist does. A verse we shall consider. Doug, what would a person like you do with Hebrews 11, since all of them were under the OT, thereby OT believers, I can only imagine.

You said: "He was now in the NT, and needed to believe in Jesus to be saved under the NT." Proven above that he already knew and believe, but with very limited knowledge of the truth. God was opening up the door to the Gentiles nations and those whom he was calling, he was going to instruct them, and teach them the truth as never before. Before they were on the outside looking in, now the door is open unto them and for the most part for them mainly.

You said: "He did not yet even know the Gospel of Jesus, so He was not saved under the NT before Peter preached to him." Doug, you are one confused person, your doctrine of baptismal regeneration blinded your eyes to the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. So, Doug, what are you going to do with all those saints that died in faith in the OT, having never lived to see or even hear very much of Jesus Christ, most what they were taught stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. So much was hidden from them. You remind me of the Primitive Baptist who teach that all who join their churches must be rebaptized into the true kingdom of God which they claim for themselves! SOrta like you beleive that Cornelius need to be saved under the NT, as strange as that sounds! How about the apostles? They came were born again under the OT? Your fortress of faith has too many holes in it to be secure.

First of all, God's children do not wallowing in sin. I know well you five step of salvation, I have heard it a thousand times over.

You said: "Everywhere in Scripture there are statements that man must do this, that, or the other IN ORDER TO BE saved."

I am coming back to make a separate post addressing each verse as brief as I can. Long post folks generally do read as you know.

religion is a very tough nut to crack open

religion focusses on the outward = water baptism

JESUS Says, "that which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is spirit"

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Of course He does. But there is nowhere in Scripture that says that Jesus' Kingdom will be an Earthly Kingdom.

It says he will rule in jerusalem with a rod of Iron for a thousand years.

read it

As a matter of fact we are told that His Kingdom is NOT of this world (John 18:36). I am not using my belief system to interpret the Word. I am letting the Word create my beliefs.

Jesus will not reign in Earthly Jerusalem. His kingdom is not of this world. We, His Kingdom, are in this world now, and He rules us from Heaven, but His throne is in Heaven where He will be taking His Kingdom when this world ends (John 14:3).

Yes.. His kingdom (which we belong to is not of this world

But he will STILL rule for 1000 years. saved and unsaved alike, with a rod of Iron.

You keep posting the same stuff does not make you more right.

You have yet to show me why there is sin in heaven, if your interpretation is true?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Why does John show two? One unto death, and one NOT unto death?

PHYSICAL DEATH

By the way, James 2 is talking about the commandments from the Old Covenant where if you break one you've broken them all, but verse 12 is the New Covenant the law of liberty from sin. Did you ever notice that?

Good God.. so your law today is lesser than the law God gave mosses.

ok I got it..

 

[Doug Brents]

You said: "He was a believer in God before Peter arrived." Yes, he was. The declaration of the word of God said clearly:

1st John 5:1​

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

Peter said to Cornelius:

Acts 10:36​

“The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

According to God's word spoken by Peter, Cornelius knew about the word God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by him, but with very limited knowledge of the truth.

Cornelius was a believer in God through his knowledge of the Law of Moses. He was not a believer in Jesus because he didn't know that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law. This is why God sent him to Peter, so that he could learn about Jesus and become saved under the NT.

You said: "But that would have only made him saved under the OT, not the NT." Doug, what difference does it makes if one is born again under the OT, and not the NT? Doug, the only difference would be lack of knowledge, if anything, and in most cases that would indeed be the case ~ and it is if one truly understand Mark 16:16 which no baptismal regenerationist does. A verse we shall consider. Doug, what would a person like you do with Hebrews 11, since all of them were under the OT, thereby OT believers, I can only imagine.

It makes all the difference in the world. From the death of Jesus, no one could be saved without belief/faith in Him. Believing in the OT Law no longer had any value, because the OT Law was fulfilled and had no more power after Jesus' death.
Mark 16:16 is very clear that in order to be saved, each individual must believe in Jesus and be baptized (in water) into Him. Individuals who do not believe in Him will not obey Him, and anyone who does obey Him even though they do not believe is doing so in vain.
Heb 11 is the "faith hall of fame", if you will, and it first defines faith as the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen, then it portrays many of the heroes of the faith and the substance and evidence of their faith.

You said: "He was now in the NT, and needed to believe in Jesus to be saved under the NT." Proven above that he already knew and believe, but with very limited knowledge of the truth. God was opening up the door to the Gentiles nations and those whom he was calling, he was going to instruct them, and teach them the truth as never before. Before they were on the outside looking in, now the door is open unto them and for the most part for them mainly.

He knew and believed in God through the OT Law. But as stated above, the Law no longer had any power. It was fulfilled and removed when Jesus died and was raised again. So Cornelius needed to come to belief in Jesus to be saved.

You said: "He did not yet even know the Gospel of Jesus, so He was not saved under the NT before Peter preached to him." Doug, you are one confused person, your doctrine of baptismal regeneration blinded your eyes to the truth as it is in Jesus Christ. So, Doug, what are you going to do with all those saints that died in faith in the OT, having never lived to see or even hear very much of Jesus Christ, most what they were taught stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

LOL, those who died under the OT were never subject to belief in Jesus. They had the commandments given by God directly. The blood of Jesus flows through all time to remove the sins of those whose faith God accepts.

So much was hidden from them. You remind me of the Primitive Baptist who teach that all who join their churches must be rebaptized into the true kingdom of God which they claim for themselves! SOrta like you beleive that Cornelius need to be saved under the NT, as strange as that sounds! How about the apostles? They came were born again under the OT? Your fortress of faith has too many holes in it to be secure.

My fortress of faith is Christ Jesus, and He has no holes whatsoever. I don't know anything about the primitive baptist, but if what you say is true, then they have a perverted view of what baptism means, and what the Church is.
The Apostles were shown to have been saved in Christ when He declared them pure after His resurrection, and He gave them the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They may have been (probably were) saved before that, but it is clear that they were for sure at that time.

First of all, God's children do not wallowing in sin. I know well you five step of salvation, I have heard it a thousand times over.

Every person, even the saved, continue to sin. But the saved do not continue living a lifestyle of unrepentant sin. We continually seek God, and when we are found in a sin, repent and turn back to God's light.
The "five steps of salvation" are not "mine", but God's. He is the one who commands that we repent in order to be forgiven (Acts 3:19), confess Jesus as Lord in order to be saved (Rom 10:9-10), and be baptized in order to be forgiven and to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). If you have a problem with His plan of salvation, take it up with Him. He is the Lord, not me.

You said: "Everywhere in Scripture there are statements that man must do this, that, or the other IN ORDER TO BE saved."

I am coming back to make a separate post addressing each verse as brief as I can. Long post folks generally do read as you know.

looking forward to it.

 

[Doug Brents]

It says he will rule in jerusalem with a rod of Iron for a thousand years.

You are putting together many passages and trying to make one idea out of them, but they don't all fit in the same time period.
Jesus rules in Heaven for a thousand years (Rev 20:4). Rev 19:15 says He will rule with an iron rod and the Sword coming from His mouth, but this is talking about at His second coming. It does not carry over to the thousand years.

Yes.. His kingdom (which we belong to is not of this world

But he will STILL rule for 1000 years. saved and unsaved alike, with a rod of Iron.

No, only the saved will be part of the 1000 years (Rev 20:4-6).

You keep posting the same stuff does not make you more right.

I keep posting the Truth of Scripture. You keep posting false doctrines. I'll stick with the Word of God, and if it feels repetitive to you, I'm ok with that.

You have yet to show me why there is sin in heaven, if your interpretation is true?

There isn't sin in Heaven. Not sure where you get that idea.

 

[Red Baker]

It says he will rule in jerusalem with a rod of Iron for a thousand years.

Without hijacking this thread, Doug is right on this point~Jesus Christ is now ruling over the New Jerusalem, there will never be a kingdom set up in this world for the Jews, never.

 

[Red Baker]

Cornelius was a believer in God through his knowledge of the Law of Moses. He was not a believer in Jesus because he didn't know that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law. This is why God sent him to Peter, so that he could learn about Jesus and become saved under the NT.

Doug, I'm going to first finish you first post to me then I'll pick here if time permits before I leave Friday for Florida via Ga.

Doug, NO ONE needs to know any truth before they are BORN AGAIN, that's impossible, and even after we are born of God, we are like infants, we learn slowly by taking in truth beginning with milk and then move on to the meat of the word. New born babes do not even know their parents until a little time with them, and you expect sinners to know and understand spiritual truth, you truly need to rethink your position.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You are putting together many passages and trying to make one idea out of them, but they don't all fit in the same time period.

actually I used one passage for this, in revelation

Jesus rules in Heaven for a thousand years (Rev 20:4). Rev 19:15 says He will rule with an iron rod and the Sword coming from His mouth, but this is talking about at His second coming. It does not carry over to the thousand years.

No he does not. Again, there is no sin in heaven,

Instead of being humble and searching to try to find out where I am getting this from. you keep using the same argument

Zech 14: 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

This is AFTER the great battle when all nations came against jerusalem. and God struck them down. at the return of the king.

this is when he is ruling in Jerusalem (not in heaven)

sorry but you are just wrong here

No, only the saved will be part of the 1000 years (Rev 20:4-6).

Yes. Only the saved will enter the 1000 years.

but they will have children. and their children will not be born saved, they will be required to accept Grace as your and I were

I keep posting the Truth of Scripture.

No, you keep posting your opinion.

Humble yourself Doug, Your pride is huge in almost every post you make

You keep posting false doctrines. I'll stick with the Word of God, and if it feels repetitive to you, I'm ok with that.

Then stick with the word of God as I have

Again, the above passage is a propecy of a time when Jesus will rule here on earth. there is still sin. and people are still being punished.

This CAN NOT BE HEAVEN

There isn't sin in Heaven. Not sure where you get that idea.

Your right there is not

but as i just proved, There is sin when Jesus is in Jerusalem ruling. when people do not come to worship him from all nations..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Without hijacking this thread, Doug is right on this point~Jesus Christ is now ruling over the New Jerusalem,

well your as wrong as he is. Jesus is ruling, but not with a rod of iron. if you look at the world and think Jesus is ruling. I pity what heaven will look like

there will never be a kingdom set up in this world for the Jews, never.

Its not for the jews

ITS FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.