"Works Salvation"

[Seabass]

Wait... am I part of "some people" in this scenario? I don't think I ought to be.

"Works of obedience" is a strange turn of phrase to me. I think of work as something that requires an effort I'd rather not make. Belief is sort of the opposite - it's something I'm eager to do, because I agree with it. Well, that's what the word means... Be Lief

View attachment 2923

it takes 'doing' to obey God....

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Lk 6:46)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt 7:21)
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (Jn 7:17)
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:....
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: (Matt 7:24,26)
Doing God's will is not "works of merit", yet many will not acknowledge this difference.
Belief is a work, a word of action. If belief does not move one to do God's will then that type of belief is a dead, worthless belief alone that cannot save.
No works means no salvation for works are a cause of salvation but not the only cause.....it takes BOTH God's grace and man's obedience to cause salvation. Noah's obedience to God's grace means both grace and obedience are the cause of salvation for no salvation without either.

Hence "grace alone" does not saved....

The idea or phrase "sinner saved by grace" is not found in the Bible. Sinners are lost for they are the ones who have not complied to God's will as those Jews in Rom 10:3 have not submitted to God's righteousness. It is Christians who are saved by grace (Rom 6) for they are the ones who have complied to God's will.

A sinner is one who has rebelled, disobeyed who has not complied to God's will (1 Jn 3:4). No example of such a person unconditionally saved by God.

 

[Seabass]

The whole "works salvation" is one of those made-up phrases that cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. It takes on whatever meaning the user of the phrase wants it to mean. It is almost always used in rejecting faith as a condition for being born again and being saved and it very often is used in promoting the false thinking that regeneration must occur before one can have faith.

I have heard the phrase "Christ did everything so you do not have to do anything" many times but it has no scriptural basis.

Passages where the phrases "works" or something similar is used in speaking about any aspect of salvation is typically inaccurately interpreted as anything that one does. It is wrong to do so; "works" in that context does not preclude conditions established by God for receiving forgiveness or salvation. Jesus declared that faith in God, believing in God, is a work, i.e., something that one does (John 6:29). It is also declared that salvation is through faith (Eph 2:8). Paul declares that we are Justified by faith (Rom 5:1). Jesus' use of the word "work" or "works" clearly is not the same as Paul's use of the word in passages such as Ephesians 2:9. Paul is specifically calling out works of the law as not required.

When a faith onlyists sees the word 'works' they quickly assume it means any and all works.

Faith is a work, but it is not a work of the law. Repenting is a work, but not a work of the law, baptism is a work, but not a work of the law, confessing is a work but not a work of the law. Thus if God has said that one needs to believe, repent, confess and/or believe in order to be saved, that is not in conflict with God's word that being saved is not by works. God has the perfect right to require certain conditions be met in order that He save them.

And I have seen it claimed many times that "if you have to meet a condition, then it's not a free gift" yet that has no logical or Biblical basis.

 

[Seabass]

It is not the "us" that is significant in this verse. It is the "any" and "all".
Again, look to 1 Pet 1:2 and Rom 8:29. Upon what did God base His predestination of the "elect"? Is it not clearly written that it is based upon His foreknowledge? Does He not already know who will choose Him of their own free will? He did not select the "elect" at random, or by arbitrary fiat. He chose those who choose Him, just as Jesus said, those who confess Me, I will confess before the Father. His choice of us is based upon our choice of Him, not the other way around. Our choice comes first.

God is not willing that ANYONE should perish, but that EVERYONE should come to repentance. But many (most even) do perish, and only a few will come to repentance. That means that God's will is not the only will that has an impact on the destiny of mankind. Satan, and man himself, have a will that contends with God, and God allows our will to keep us away from Him if we choose not to love Him.

The pronouns "some" "many" and "all" are indefinite pronouns and indefinite pronouns do not refer to a specific person(s). (1)

Example, the indefinite pronoun 'some' most likely refers to back the scoffers all the way up in verse 3. If "any" must refer to "the elect" then "some" would also refer to "the elect". Then that means Peter is saying some of you (the elect) count the Lord's promise as slack.

Yet if "some" does not have to refer to "you-ward" (the elect) then "any" and "all" do not have to refer to the you-ward (elect) either.

Therefore "any" and "all" can refer to any man not to just the so called "elect".

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(1)

AI Overview: (my emp)

The Greek word tinas in 2 Peter 3:9, derived from tis, is an indefinite pronoun, often translated as "anyone," "some," or "any". As an indefinite pronoun, it does not strictly require a direct antecedent for grammatical sense, supporting the interpretation that it refers broadly to individuals rather than solely the "beloved" addressed previously.

Grammatical Analysis: Tinas (τινας) is the accusative plural form of tis (τις), which functions as an indefinite pronoun, often translated as "anyone" or "some" in this context.

Indefinite Nature: Indefinite pronouns represent unspecified objects or persons, which, according to this argument, implies that "any" (tinas) is not restricted in scope to a specifically mentioned, limited group (like "you" in the first part of the verse).

Interpretation Context: Therefore, the phrase "not willing that any should perish" can be interpreted as referring to "anyone" generically, rather than only to a predefined group of believers (the "beloved").This grammatical point is often discussed in debates regarding the scope of God's desire for salvation in 2 Peter 3:9.

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John Calvin sees "any" and "all" as mankind not just "the elect":
"Not willing that any should perish. So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost." (2)


(2)

Hermeneutics of 2Peter 3:9 -- "Us all" or "you all"?

Introduction to 2Peter 3:9 (This is a repost of an article I wrote for a previous blog of mine. I like the analysis and wanted to put it ...

controversialcalvinism.blogspot.com

 

[Studyman]

Yes, if no works are necessary to being saved that eliminates God's work in salvation. God does not do His work in removing the body of sin if man does not do His part in obeying by submitting to baptism Col 2:11-12

Yes, Baptism, like Circumcision, are Spiritual.

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, (Emersed in Living Water) wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Works" is the very basis that determines where a person will be in eternity (Rom 2:6-11)

An undeniable Biblical Truth that has been taught against by the "other voices" in the Garden God placed us on, since Eve was beguiled by the serpent.

The Jews were lost for listening to their own voice, going about doing their OWN righteousness rather than submitting to God's righteousness (Rom 10:3)

Another undeniable Biblical Truth, as it is written: "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the "doers" of the law shall be justified."

Great Post Brother!

 

[Studyman]

I have heard the phrase "Christ did everything so you do not have to do anything" many times but it has no scriptural basis.



When a faith onlyists sees the word 'works' they quickly assume it means any and all works.



And I have seen it claimed many times that "if you have to meet a condition, then it's not a free gift" yet that has no logical or Biblical basis.

Absolutely, a foolish and un-Biblical, though popular philosophy.

Akin to a drowning man needing to be saved, and a Power greater than he throws him the free gift of a life jacket, that this man had no part in creating, and instructed the drowning man to "put on" the free gift, in order to be saved. Then the drowning man rejecting the gift, declaring it wasn't free, because he had to "put it on".

Or he puts it on, only to have others rebuke him for "trying to save himself".

I am encouraged by your posts. Thank you for them.

 

[Seabass]

Absolutely, a foolish and un-Biblical, though popular philosophy.

Akin to a drowning man needing to be saved, and a Power greater than he throws him the free gift of a life jacket, that this man had no part in creating, and instructed the drowning man to "put on" the free gift, in order to be saved. Then the drowning man rejecting the gift, declaring it wasn't free, because he had to "put it on".

Or he puts it on, only to have others rebuke him for "trying to save himself".

I am encouraged by your posts. Thank you for them.

Thank you.

 

[Red Baker]

@Doug Brents

It is not the "us" that is significant in this verse. It is the "any" and "all".

Doug, the any and all are the usward!

Again, look to 1 Pet 1:2 and Rom 8:29. Upon what did God base His predestination of the "elect"? Is it not clearly written that it is based upon His foreknowledge?

Doug, you are 100% correct. But, exactly what did God's infinite knowledge foreknow? He knew that unless He had an election based upon His grace, then not one soul would have ever been saved from sin and condemnation, no, not one! Doug, if you would only ponder and consider this truth, then you just might begin to come to the knowledge of the truth, which is truly our prayer, which is the main reason as to why we are here to help God's children to see the truth and depart from error.

Does He not already know who will choose Him of their own free will?

Man's will as far as doing spiritual acts pleasing to God is in bondage to sin and the devil himself.

John 8:36​

“If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”

Romans 9:16​

“So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

He chose those who choose Him

That is not the definition of election~that's man's vain attempt to discard the truth of election of grace solely according to the will of God alone. See #3957 post.

His choice of us is based upon our choice of Him, not the other way around. Our choice comes first.

We all made our choice freely in Adam's disobedience~which God foresaw we would all do when left to our ourselves. So, before he created, he purposed to have an election of grace so we could be saved from our fallen state by his mighty power alone.

God is not willing that ANYONE should perish, but that EVERYONE should come to repentance.

Not willing that any of the usward to persih before they are brought into the fold by the new birth. Btw, NONE of them will perish that he purposed to save by His mercy for Christ's sake~if Christ secured their salvations from sin and condemnation then they MUST be saved.

Luke 19:9​

“And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.”

That is a spiritual son by God's election of pure grace.

That means that God's will is not the only will that has an impact on the destiny of mankind. Satan, and man himself, have a will that contends with God, and God allows our will to keep us away from Him if we choose not to love Him.

Doug, I can at every turn answer your weak (no pun intended) arguments against the truth, yet it will do no good unless God opens one's heart to the truth.

Actually, the free will of both angels and man has the impact on their destiny heading toward destruction; but only the will of God can change that for some angles and some men, to cause them to love and seek him by giving them an heart to do so and protect them from destruction by his election of them.

Psalms 65:4​

“Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.”

David fully understood this blessed truth, and Doug, you need to reconsider your error, may God give you an heart to do so.

 

[Jim]

Doug, you are 100% correct. But, exactly what did God's infinite knowledge foreknow? He knew that unless He had an election based upon His grace, then not one soul would have ever been saved from sin and condemnation, no, not one!

It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible. That is completely made up by you. And it is a complete untruth.

What, or actually whom, did God foreknow is stated in the previous verse, namely, them that love God. God foreknew them that love God. It was they that God called. Verses 29 and 30 then describe the process whereby God called them.

 

[Doug Brents]

@Doug Brents

Doug, the any and all are the usward!

Nope, they are not.

Doug, you are 100% correct. But, exactly what did God's infinite knowledge foreknow? He knew that unless He had an election based upon His grace, then not one soul would have ever been saved from sin and condemnation, no, not one! Doug, if you would only ponder and consider this truth, then you just might begin to come to the knowledge of the truth, which is truly our prayer, which is the main reason as to why we are here to help God's children to see the truth and depart from error.

You are correct, apart from God's grace, not one man would be saved. So He sent His Son to give us a way to be saved, redeemed, forgiven, etc.
But His grace is NOT given randomly, or arbitrarily. It is given when, and because, we submit to Him in repentance and baptism. Will you not see and accept Matt 10:32? It is our confession of Jesus that leads Him to confess us. It is not that we confess Him because He confessed us. Read it and study what that means.

That is not the definition of election~that's man's vain attempt to discard the truth of election of grace solely according to the will of God alone. See #3957 post.

No, my friend, it is not. It is accepting and understanding how God has dealt with man since Creation. That is why we have to OT still as part of Scripture; so that we can learn the character of God and see how He has dealt with man from the beginning. Every time God sends a blessing toward man, He offers conditions for that person to meet before they receive the blessing. The meeting of the conditions does not in any way contribute to the gift He gives, but without meeting the conditions the blessing will not be given.

We all made our choice freely in Adam's disobedience~which God foresaw we would all do when left to our ourselves. So, before he created, he purposed to have an election of grace so we could be saved from our fallen state by his mighty power alone.

Not willing that any of the usward to persih

No, He was not willing that ANYONE, in the whole wide world since Creation, should perish.
John 3:16 - anyone in the World who believes (has faith) in Jesus will not die in sin.
1 John 2:2 - Jesus died, not for Christ followers only, but for the WHOLE WORLD.
Jesus did not die only for the "elect", but for all the sinners in the world; He came to seek and saved whom? That which is LOST.

before they are brought into the fold by the new birth.

Luke 19:9​

“And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.”

That is a spiritual son by God's election of pure grace.

Doug, I can at every turn answer your weak (no pun intended) arguments against the truth, yet it will do no good unless God opens one's heart to the truth.

I pray that He opens your heart to the Truth every day.

Actually, the free will of both angels and man has the impact on their destiny heading toward destruction; but only the will of God can change that for some angles and some men, to cause them to love and seek him by giving them an heart to do so and protect them from destruction by his election of them.

There is no evidence anywhere that the fallen angels who followed Satan into condemnation can be rescued and restored to righteousness. Those angels that are still of the Light have never fallen, and those who fell have no hope of redemption.
Mankind is the ONLY being with a hope of salvation and redemption.

Psalms 65:4​

“Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.”

David fully understood this blessed truth, and Doug, you need to reconsider your error, may God give you an heart to do so.

I am constantly seeking His will. And when I find one of you who can account for ALL Scripture and show that Man's choice does not play a part in our salvation, then I will preach what you believe. But you cannot, because Scripture doesn't say what you are teaching. In every case where salvation is mentioned in the NT, faith is a prerequisite, and faith requires, demands, and is dead and worthless without human action (James 2:14-26). This action MUST come before salvation is received (Eph 2:8-9). And it must take the form of the obedience that God says leads to or results in receiving His gift of salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), verbal public confession of Jesus as Lord (Matt 10:32, Rom 10:9-10), and baptism in water (Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, Acts 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21).

 

[Wick Stick]

it takes 'doing' to obey God....

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Lk 6:46)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matt 7:21)
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (Jn 7:17)
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:....
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: (Matt 7:24,26)
Doing God's will is not "works of merit", yet many will not acknowledge this difference.
Belief is a work, a word of action. If belief does not move one to do God's will then that type of belief is a dead, worthless belief alone that cannot save.
No works means no salvation for works are a cause of salvation but not the only cause.....it takes BOTH God's grace and man's obedience to cause salvation. Noah's obedience to God's grace means both grace and obedience are the cause of salvation for no salvation without either.

Hence "grace alone" does not saved....

The idea or phrase "sinner saved by grace" is not found in the Bible. Sinners are lost for they are the ones who have not complied to God's will as those Jews in Rom 10:3 have not submitted to God's righteousness. It is Christians who are saved by grace (Rom 6) for they are the ones who have complied to God's will.

A sinner is one who has rebelled, disobeyed who has not complied to God's will (1 Jn 3:4). No example of such a person unconditionally saved by God.

You seem to be talking to... I dunno... not me

I'll leave you to it

 

[Red Baker]

@Doug Brents

Will you not see and accept Matt 10:32? It is our confession of Jesus that leads Him to confess us. It is not that we confess Him because He confessed us. Read it and study what that means.

Matthew 10:32​

“Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”

There's not one thing in Matthew 10:32 that has reference "to the source of" one's confession either positively, or, negatively. What we have is the Lord's warning concerning being fearful for whatever reason (there could be a few as you well know) of confessing Christ before men~pride, desiring to keep one's place in synagogues (church/temple) etc., etc.

Doug, the conjunction "but" proves my point form verse 32 to verse 33. Doug, it is you that truly should read and study this out better than you have in the past. No pun intended my friend, God forbid.

It is our duty to show meekness in discussing scriptures with all men if possible, at times we must get firm and even mock them as Elijah did to the worshippers of Baal. In 1st Kings 18:27, the prophet Elijah famously mocked the 450 prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel after they failed to get their god to answer with fire. Elijah sarcastically suggested they "shout louder" because Baal might be sleeping, busy, traveling, or meditating, highlighting the impotence of their idol compared to the true God.

Every time God sends a blessing toward man, He offers conditions for that person to meet before they receive the blessing. The meeting of the conditions does not in any way contribute to the gift He gives, but without meeting the conditions the blessing will not be given.

Doug, this is true with his people all through their life, and even at times like with Cain (Genesis 4:7) he said things to prove to us of the depravity of the heart of man apart from grace given to them freely, showing that even if a blessing is put forth with conditions, that man in his natural state has no true desire or even strength to receive God's best for them!

No, He was not willing that ANYONE, in the whole wide world since Creation, should perish.
John 3:16 - anyone in the World who believes (has faith) in Jesus will not die in sin.
1 John 2:2 - Jesus died, not for Christ followers only, but for the WHOLE WORLD.
Jesus did not die only for the "elect", but for all the sinners in the world; He came to seek and saved whom? That which is LOST.

Here with such scriptures is where all false cults unite with one voice against the truth~Baptist; church of Chrsit/God, Romans Catholics; EOC, thousands more, etc. They run with sound bites thinking God is with them, but he is no where among those who corrupt His truth.

John 3:16~means what to you? World to you means that he loves every single person, past, present and future? When we know this is far from the truth. World is John 3:16 simply means all without distinction, not all without exceptions as you have been taught to say. Jesus was teaching Nicodemus and us, that God's love was not limited to the Jewish nation as it was in the OT. In the NT he is God both of the Jews and Gentiles, yet not all from each, only the children of his promises are counted for the true Israel of God.

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

1st John 2:2~means what to you? World to you means every single person, past, present, and future, for this is what you have been taught to say. Doug, to whom was the apostles sent to mainly, except for Paul? The Jews first, and then Paul to the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:9​

“And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”

John is writing to the circumcision, to whom he was sent, and he is telling them just what I am telling you my friend~God is not the God of the Jews only, but he is the God of the Gentiles, for God so loved the word~Jews and Gentiles and among each he has a chosen people. Selah, thank you blessed God for your truth to us! Doug, do not fight against the truth, but love it and submit to it.

I am constantly seeking His will. And when I find one of you who can account for ALL Scripture and show that Man's choice does not play a part in our salvation, then I will preach what you believe.

Doug, I believe you have a different spirit, much like @Jim, unlike @Studyman, @Seabass, I do not know enough of as of yet. God alone knows all of us and who belongs to him.

2nd Timothy 2:19​

“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

But you cannot, because Scripture doesn't say what you are teaching. In every case where salvation is mentioned in the NT, faith is a prerequisite, and faith requires, demands, and is dead and worthless without human action (James 2:14-26). This action MUST come before salvation is received (Eph 2:8-9). And it must take the form of the obedience that God says leads to or results in receiving His gift of salvation: repentance (Acts 3:19), verbal public confession of Jesus as Lord (Matt 10:32, Rom 10:9-10), and baptism in water (Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Gal 3:26-27, Eph 5:26-27, Acts 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21).

I'll be more than happy to come back and address any scriptures, that I have not address, just let me know which ones you desire for me to address.

 

[Seabass]

You seem to be talking to... I dunno... not me

I'll leave you to it

I'm just pointing out to anyone that obedience and works of merit are two different, distinct things.

Belief is obedience (Jn 3:36) therefore not a work of merit.....

Definitions from Oxford Languages
o·be·di·ence
/əˈbēdēən(t)s/
noun
compliance with an order, request, or law or submission to another's authority.

NT belief is not just an assent of the mind , an intellectual agreement with a truth or proposition without acting on it, but belief is a word of action in complying to, submitting to God's authority, God's will.

Nor is obedience "legalism", Noah doing all that was commanded him, submitting to, complying to God's will in building the ark does not make him a "legalist"

Unfortunately 'obedience' gets attacked a lot by some religious groups in their efforts to promote faith only-ism.

 

[synergy]

I'm just pointing out to anyone that obedience and works of merit are two different, distinct things.

Even works (done in faith) are not works of merit either. Attaching the word "merit" to any human activity is the patented Calvinist attempt to discredit any human act whatsoever. Their disdain for any human act, even repentance, is breathtaking.

 

[Red Baker]

@Seabass

I'm just pointing out to anyone that obedience and works of merit are two different, distinct things.

I was pretty sure you were addressing me but like many preachers you used the insinuations tactic hoping that it hits the intended target. You succeeded, but I just was not ready to respond, since I desire a more direct face to face meeting. It takes larger stones to do it in this manner.

I am sure you are up to the task ~ I'm certain there, since I have been doing this for over fifty plus years. So, let us get into this subject.

I'm just pointing out to anyone that obedience and works of merit are two different, distinct things.

Belief is obedience (Jn 3:36) therefore not a work of merit.....

Any act that we have "an active part in", is by God's definition a work done by us, you cannot escape that conclusion. impossible~including faith. The power to have faith is given to us and come through the new man within us ~ certainly does not come by our flesh, or old man.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

That is, in my flesh. One must be in the Spirit, or born of God before one can please God, or, do any spiritual acts pleasing to God. Yes, they can do many good deeds, yet not one spiritual deed until one is first born of the Spirit of God. This is God's testimony concerning these truths, not mine, or Augustine of Hippo, Luther's Calvin, Gill, etc.

Romans 8:8​

“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

How powerful, clear, and according to all of the word of God are Paul's teaching for us to believe and receive. If we do not, then we do not truly believe what is written so clearly.

NT belief is not just an assent of the mind , an intellectual agreement with a truth or proposition without acting on it, but belief is a word of action in complying to, submitting to God's authority, God's will.

Correct, no problem here.

Nor is obedience "legalism", Noah doing all that was commanded him, submitting to, complying to God's will in building the ark does not make him a "legalist"

Amen. Charity, fear, obedience are some of the clearest evidence of the new birth, not conditions for being born of God.

Unfortunately 'obedience' gets attacked a lot by some religious groups in their efforts to promote faith only-ism.

Two things~First, yes there are some, maybe many I should say, that attacks those who live according to the word of God as leagalist, that are far from being such.

There are some legalist such as men who forbid eating of certain meats, who condemn drinking wine or strong drink in moderation; wearing certain type of clothing, worshipping on a certain day, etc., etc.

Secondly, I'm "not" a faith only-ism person, since I do not put emphasis on man's faith in being born again~faith like other fruits of the Spirit is only an evidence of the new birth, not the cause thereof.

 

[Jim]

@Doug Brents

Matthew 10:32​

“Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”

There's not one thing in Matthew 10:32 that has reference "to the source of" one's confession either positively, or, negatively. What we have is the Lord's warning concerning being fearful for whatever reason (there could be a few as you well know) of confessing Christ before men~pride, desiring to keep one's place in synagogues (church/temple) etc., etc.

Doug, the conjunction "but" proves my point form verse 32 to verse 33. Doug, it is you that truly should read and study this out better than you have in the past. No pun intended my friend, God forbid.

It sounds like you are saying that whoever confesses Jesus does so because God causes them to do so but whoever denies Jesus does so on their own. That doesn't make any sense at all. Why would Jesus confess [profess, acknowledge] to His Father in heaven someone whom the Father has caused to confess [profess, acknowledge] Jesus? Does the Father forget whom He has saved and need to be reminded? The point of Jesus' discourse here is given in verse 26 - Do not fear those who persecute you. If you stand up for Christ even under persecution, Christ will stand with you before the Father God.

Doug, this is true with his people all through their life, and even at times like with Cain (Genesis 4:7) he said things to prove to us of the depravity of the heart of man apart from grace given to them freely, showing that even if a blessing is put forth with conditions, that man in his natural state has no true desire or even strength to receive God's best for them!

God's message to Cain is clear. It was on Cain and no one else, that his standing before God was acceptable or not. It was not God's failure that Cain did not do well.

John 3:16~means what to you? World to you means that he loves every single person, past, present and future? When we know this is far from the truth. World is John 3:16 simply means all without distinction, not all without exceptions as you have been taught to say. Jesus was teaching Nicodemus and us, that God's love was not limited to the Jewish nation as it was in the OT. In the NT he is God both of the Jews and Gentiles, yet not all from each, only the children of his promises are counted for the true Israel of God.

And you think that God has required that you love those that He doesn't (Matt 5:44)? What sort of a god do you believe in?

 

[Doug Brents]

@Doug Brents

Matthew 10:32​

“Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”

There's not one thing in Matthew 10:32 that has reference "to the source of" one's confession either positively, or, negatively. What we have is the Lord's warning concerning being fearful for whatever reason (there could be a few as you well know) of confessing Christ before men~pride, desiring to keep one's place in synagogues (church/temple) etc., etc.

Doug, the conjunction "but" proves my point form verse 32 to verse 33. Doug, it is you that truly should read and study this out better than you have in the past. No pun intended my friend, God forbid.

It is our duty to show meekness in discussing scriptures with all men if possible, at times we must get firm and even mock them as Elijah did to the worshippers of Baal. In 1st Kings 18:27, the prophet Elijah famously mocked the 450 prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel after they failed to get their god to answer with fire. Elijah sarcastically suggested they "shout louder" because Baal might be sleeping, busy, traveling, or meditating, highlighting the impotence of their idol compared to the true God.

Doug, this is true with his people all through their life, and even at times like with Cain (Genesis 4:7) he said things to prove to us of the depravity of the heart of man apart from grace given to them freely, showing that even if a blessing is put forth with conditions, that man in his natural state has no true desire or even strength to receive God's best for them!

Here with such scriptures is where all false cults unite with one voice against the truth~Baptist; church of Chrsit/God, Romans Catholics; EOC, thousands more, etc. They run with sound bites thinking God is with them, but he is no where among those who corrupt His truth.

John 3:16~means what to you? World to you means that he loves every single person, past, present and future? When we know this is far from the truth. World is John 3:16 simply means all without distinction, not all without exceptions as you have been taught to say. Jesus was teaching Nicodemus and us, that God's love was not limited to the Jewish nation as it was in the OT. In the NT he is God both of the Jews and Gentiles, yet not all from each, only the children of his promises are counted for the true Israel of God.

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

1st John 2:2~means what to you? World to you means every single person, past, present, and future, for this is what you have been taught to say. Doug, to whom was the apostles sent to mainly, except for Paul? The Jews first, and then Paul to the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:9​

“And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”

John is writing to the circumcision, to whom he was sent, and he is telling them just what I am telling you my friend~God is not the God of the Jews only, but he is the God of the Gentiles, for God so loved the word~Jews and Gentiles and among each he has a chosen people. Selah, thank you blessed God for your truth to us! Doug, do not fight against the truth, but love it and submit to it.

Doug, I believe you have a different spirit, much like @Jim, unlike @Studyman, @Seabass, I do not know enough of as of yet. God alone knows all of us and who belongs to him.

2nd Timothy 2:19​

“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

I'll be more than happy to come back and address any scriptures, that I have not address, just let me know which ones you desire for me to address.

Those are great opinions on those verses, but they fail in many places.
What is the meaning or intent of the word "world" in most cases in the New Testament? Is it not referring to the lost, the condemned, the unrighteous? You can see this most especially in places like 1 John 2:15-17, where God contrasts what is in the world with what is righteous.
When was 1 John written? Some time near the last decade of the first century, right? What was the composition of the Church near the end of the first century? There were a large number of Jews in the Church, but there were even more Gentiles in the Church by that time. 1 John was written to the Church at large, the righteous of both the Jews and the Gentiles. 1 John 2:2 is not addressed to the righteous Jews apart from the righteous Gentiles; "our" is the Church as a whole, as opposed to the world which is lost.
Yes, "world" in John 3:16 is every single person past, present, and future. And "whosoever" means anyone. Anyone can accept Jesus as their Lord, and God will forgive and save them.

 

[Seabass]

Even works (done in faith) are not works of merit either. Attaching the word "merit" to any human activity is the patented Calvinist attempt to discredit any human act whatsoever. Their disdain for any human act, even repentance, is breathtaking.

God predetermined that those in the group Christian would do good works, but those good works are not works of merit. They are a condition of God required of the faithful Christian whereby the Christian will not be fruitless.



Eph 2:10
For we (Christians) are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Seabass]

@Seabass

I was pretty sure you were addressing me but like many preachers you used the insinuations tactic hoping that it hits the intended target. You succeeded, but I just was not ready to respond, since I desire a more direct face to face meeting. It takes larger stones to do it in this manner.

I am sure you are up to the task ~ I'm certain there, since I have been doing this for over fifty plus years. So, let us get into this subject.

Actually to Wick Stick who never made it quite clear to me where he/she stood on this issue. But the issue is for all those who have no understanding of obedience.

Any act that we have "an active part in", is by God's definition a work done by us, you cannot escape that conclusion. impossible~including faith. The power to have faith is given to us and come through the new man within us ~ certainly does not come by our flesh, or old man.

Noah building the ark was a work done by Him. It was not Noah's idea to build the ark so building the ark was not Noah trying to save himself by himself. Building the ark was God's idea that God attached to receiving His grace. So Noah's salvation was by BOTH God's grace and his obedience thereby grace alone would not save him. Noah's work apart from grace would not save him either.

Romans 7:18​

“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”

That is, in my flesh. One must be in the Spirit, or born of God before one can please God, or, do any spiritual acts pleasing to God. Yes, they can do many good deeds, yet not one spiritual deed until one is first born of the Spirit of God. This is God's testimony concerning these truths, not mine, or Augustine of Hippo, Luther's Calvin, Gill, etc.

We touched on this before. Paul is not describing a totally depraved person. Paul is describing a person who wants to do good and hates when he does not do good, a person who delights in God's law, sees God's law as good....which is not a totally depraved person.
Paul is describing the Jew trying to find justification by the OT law apart from Christ. The OT law required the work of sinless, perfect law keeping which is something the Jew was unable to do for the Jew would sin (Paul proves the Jew sinned in Rom 3:10-19). So the inability is not unable to do any good at all but unable to keep the OT law perfectly sinless. Rom 7:18 Paul is saying finding justification outside of Christ by doing sinless perfect works is not possible. "No good dwelleth in me" does not mean Paul could not do any good at all, he did convert to Christianity, but that apart from Christ good has no permanent dwelling in him......not that he could do no good at all before becoming a Christian. Rom 2, Paul declared the Gentiles had a good will though they did not have a law given to them. The Jew under the OT law had a will to do what is right, vs 16,19.

And Paul then contrasts this Jew trying to find justification by perfect works apart from Christ in Rom 8:1..but "NOW" (as a Christian) there is no condemnation in Christ as there was under the OT law that condemned for just one sin. Paul's theme in Romans is justification.

But an underlying topic Paul deals with here in chapter 7,8 (and in Chapters 3,4,5) is that justification does not come by the OT law and its requirement of flawless works apart from Christ. Failure of the OT law in Rom 8:1-3:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh" the OT law required perfect obedience but the flesh was too weak to fulfill that requirement.

Nothing about here at all about total depravity.

Romans 8:8​

“So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

Paul's argument on this begins back in chapter 6:1
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"
Paul was accused that the gospel he preached encouraged Christians to sin so grace could abound (Rom 3:8).
Yet Paul says "God forbid" to such an argument. "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?: Rom 6:2

And sums this argument up in Rom 8:12-13 'Therefore (summation) brethren we are debtors, NOT to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Paul's gospel taught the Christian had a duty, a moral duty to do right, to do things of Spirit, not things of the flesh so grace can abound.

Paul is not saying the Christian must live perfectly sinless as the OT required (Rom 7) for Christians do sin and can die spiritually (Rom 8:13). Neither do Christians have a moral right to sin, cannot use the excuse to sin so grace can abound. Christians are those who are led by the Spirit not the flesh.

How powerful, clear, and according to all of the word of God are Paul's teaching for us to believe and receive. If we do not, then we do not truly believe what is written so clearly.

Correct, no problem here.

Amen. Charity, fear, obedience are some of the clearest evidence of the new birth, not conditions for being born of God.

Two things~First, yes there are some, maybe many I should say, that attacks those who live according to the word of God as leagalist, that are far from being such.

There are some legalist such as men who forbid eating of certain meats, who condemn drinking wine or strong drink in moderation; wearing certain type of clothing, worshipping on a certain day, etc., etc.

Acts 10 Peter's vision, eating meat is good.

The NT does condemn social drinking. Eph 5:17-18; 1 Pet 4:3; 1 Pet 1:13; etc.

The NT does have a dress code; Christians are to wear what is modest (opposed to immodest), no shamefacedness (no indecent exposure) and wear what shows reverence and godly fear (Heb 12:28). God has never accepted anything less than a person's best.....God does not accept sloppy leftovers.

Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 16:2 Christians do meet on the first day of the week.

Secondly, I'm "not" a faith only-ism person, since I do not put emphasis on man's faith in being born again~faith like other fruits of the Spirit is only an evidence of the new birth, not the cause thereof.

Faith precedes being born again. The new birth takes place when one has been water baptized (Jn 3:3-5) and belief precedes baptism Mk 16:16...he who having ALREADY believed (aorist/past tense) and having ALREADY been baptized (past/aorist tense) shall (future tense) be saved/born again. Belief and baptism must occur before the leading verb saved can take place.

 

[Wick Stick]

Actually to Wick Stick who never made it quite clear to me where he/she stood on this issue. But the issue is for all those who have no understanding of obedience.

Seems to me you're splitting hairs, trying to insert an extra differentiation where none is really needed. Those who believe, do stuff. If stuff isn't happening, belief is lacking.

My pronouns are he/man

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

And you think that God has required that you love those that He doesn't (Matt 5:44)? What sort of a god do you believe in?

As a man, we are to love others as our own selves, which of course we all fall short of. We are not commanded to love those who boldly confess hatred for God, his word and his people, we hate them with a godly hatred.

Psalms 139:21​

“Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?”

Psalms 139:22​

“I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.”

As a man, I do not know who God loves or hates, so, as man, I show kindness to all men until they reveal themselves to me, then I avoid them and look forward to the day that I'm no longer around such people. Pretty sure Jim you do the same.