"Works Salvation"

[Red Baker]

@Doug Brents

When was 1 John written? Some time near the last decade of the first century, right? What was the composition of the Church near the end of the first century? There were a large number of Jews in the Church, but there were even more Gentiles in the Church by that time. 1 John was written to the Church at large, the righteous of both the Jews and the Gentiles. 1 John 2:2 is not addressed to the righteous Jews apart from the righteous Gentiles; "our" is the Church as a whole, as opposed to the world which is lost.

Doug, you are voicing a personal opinion, while I gave you proof to whom John was sent to and to whom he wrote to. You can believe what you want to, and you will, yet personal opinions means nothing. but that it is your personal opinion. God is not impress with what we believe apart from his own testimony.

While I agree that all of the word of God from Genesis to Revelation is for all of God's people, yet, still the truth stands as far as to whom the apostles were sent to and to whom Paul was sent to.

Yes, "world" in John 3:16 is every single person past, present, and future. And "whosoever" means anyone. Anyone can accept Jesus as their Lord, and God will forgive and save them.

Doug, you are in love more of what you think than what the word of God teaches. You give personal opinions while I gave to you proof.

John 3:16~means what to you? World to you means that he loves every single person, past, present and future? When we know this is far from the truth. World is John 3:16 simply means all without distinction, not all without exceptions as you have been taught to say. Jesus was teaching Nicodemus and us, that God's love was not limited to the Jewish nation as it was in the OT. In the NT he is God both of the Jews and Gentiles, yet not all from each, only the children of his promises are counted for the true Israel of God.

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

I could have spent more time with that point, but I now see it would have been a totally waste of precious time. Enough said.

 

[Red Baker]

@Seabass

Noah building the ark was a work done by Him. It was not Noah's idea to build the ark so building the ark was not Noah trying to save himself by himself. Building the ark was God's idea that God attached to receiving His grace. So Noah's salvation was by BOTH God's grace and his obedience thereby grace alone would not save him. Noah's work apart from grace would not save him either.

Noah's faith, which is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit, proved that God's grace had been freely given to him ~ his faith (which was freely giving to him~Philippians 1:29) caused him to moved with fear, to the building of the ark, to saved him and his family from the destruction promised by God that he would do to the world of wicked people. God's grace separated Noah from the world, that caused him to moved with fear ~ Noah had no righteousness of his own to cause him to move with fear, it was given freely. Even after the flood, Noah's proved that he when left to himself could sin with the best of them ~by allowing himself to get drunk and laying naked in his tent. By nature, Noah was no different than those that perished in flood, no different whatsoever, to believe otherwise, is to not believe the word of God.

We touched on this before. Paul is not describing a totally depraved person. Paul is describing a person who wants to do good and hates when he does not do good, a person who delights in God's law, sees God's law as good....which is not a totally depraved person.

I do not think you and I have spoken on Romans 7:5-25.

Total depravity was dealt with in Romans 3:9-18, whereas here in Romans 7:5-25 Paul is addressing his inability to live according to God's good, spiritual, and holy laws because of sin still in his members, that is in his flesh, his old Adamic nature, even though born of the Spirit of God with a new man, there was sin present in all that he did, that kept him from doing the will of God to the degree he desire to to God's will, which was perfectly. That would be to the ultimate happiness to man's soul and for man good, if he could live according to the law of God, as our Lord did, yet because of sin in our flesh, it made it impossible to do so.

Paul is describing the Jew trying to find justification by the OT law apart from Christ.

Not in Romans 7, you are very confused. That is taught in Romans 10:1-4.

The OT law required the work of sinless, perfect law keeping which is something the Jew was unable to do for the Jew would sin (Paul proves the Jew sinned in Rom 3:10-19). So the inability is not unable to do any good at all but unable to keep the OT law perfectly sinless. Rom 7:18

Of course, no man can keep the law, not even one law, for that was all that God gave Adam, just one commandment and he still was disobedience!

Also, you are wrong when you said: "So the inability is not unable to do any good at all"

Man is unable to do any spiritual acts pleasing to God, regardless what you and others say, You are saying that hoping to bring works into the gospel of Christ, but not on my watch. Hear the word of God:

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

The word of God said that you are wrong, man is unable to do any spiritual acts pleasing unto God, natural acts, yes, but not spiritual. I'll go with God's word.

No good dwelleth in me" does not mean Paul could not do any good at all, he did convert to Christianity, but that apart from Christ good has no permanent dwelling in him......not that he could do no good at all before becoming a Christian. Rom 2, Paul declared the Gentiles had a good will though they did not have a law given to them. The Jew under the OT law had a will to do what is right, vs 16,19.

Wrong! Without the indwelling Spirit of God it is impossible. And, if one is not in the Spirit, or is not born again, then he is not of God and he's still in his sins. Romans 8:9!

Coming back after a short trip ~ The Lord willing.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Yes, Baptism, like Circumcision, are Spiritual.

Please explain what you mean that baptism is spiritual.

 

[Red Baker]

@Seabass

And Paul then contrasts this Jew trying to find justification by perfect works apart from Christ in Rom 8:1..but "NOW" (as a Christian) there is no condemnation in Christ as there was under the OT law that condemned for just one sin. Paul's theme in Romans is justification.

But an underlying topic Paul deals with here in chapter 7,8 (and in Chapters 3,4,5) is that justification does not come by the OT law and its requirement of flawless works apart from Christ. Failure of the OT law in Rom 8:1-3:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh" the OT law required perfect obedience but the flesh was too weak to fulfill that requirement.

Nothing about here at all about total depravity.

1) You said: "And Paul then contrasts this Jew trying to find justification by perfect works"

You are so wrong as you have been on just about everything you have said thus far on this subject. Actually, both here and to the churches of Galatia, Paul is dealing with adding "any work of a law" that demands sinners to have an active part in, before one can truly be justified, and know that he is. Some taught circumcision was needed; some abstaining from certain meats, (@Studyman), many such things~Galatians 2; Colossians 2; and with you and the Campbellites/church of christ, water baptism.

2) You said: "Paul's theme in Romans is justification."

Actually, free justification through Christ's faith and obedience, according to God mercy in providing a surety for his elect in Jesus Christ. You and your friends think it is through water baptism!

3.) You said: "But an underlying topic Paul deals with here in chapter 7,8 (and in Chapters 3,4,5) is that justification does not come by the OT law and its requirement of flawless works apart from Christ. Failure of the OT law in Rom 8:1-3:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh" the OT law required perfect obedience but the flesh was too weak to fulfill that requirement."

Seabass, the flesh is indeed weak, without spiritual strength, so God sent His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin, to condemn sin in the flesh, that his elect could be delivered from sin and condemnation, through Jesus' faith and obedience, since we could not render that in our own flesh, even the very simplest commandment, such as Adam had in the flesh without a sinful nature and he could not.

4.) You said: "Nothing about here at all about total depravity."

Well, you are wrong~A verse that you quoted said: "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh" ~ Jesus came to do what our flesh could not do, that is please God by doing spiritual acts that God could accept as pleasing in His sight! Jessu did this perfect, in thought, word, and deed, from conception until death.

Paul's argument on this begins back in chapter 6:1
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"
Paul was accused that the gospel he preached encouraged Christians to sin so grace could abound (Rom 3:8).
Yet Paul says "God forbid" to such an argument. "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?: Rom 6:2

And sums this argument up in Rom 8:12-13 'Therefore (summation) brethren we are debtors, NOT to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Paul's gospel taught the Christian had a duty, a moral duty to do right, to do things of Spirit, not things of the flesh so grace can abound.

Paul is not saying the Christian must live perfectly sinless as the OT required (Rom 7) for Christians do sin and can die spiritually (Rom 8:13). Neither do Christians have a moral right to sin, cannot use the excuse to sin so grace can abound. Christians are those who are led by the Spirit not the flesh.

Coming back to this since I desire to handle this in depth, tha to quickly pass over it.

 

[Seabass]

Seems to me you're splitting hairs, trying to insert an extra differentiation where none is really needed. Those who believe, do stuff. If stuff isn't happening, belief is lacking.

My pronouns are he/man
View attachment 2926

You say those who believe "do stuff" and that "stuff" they do is called obedience...not works of merit.

There are those who claim a person does not even have to obey God's will (does not have to do stuff) and yet be saved anyway.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, you are voicing a personal opinion, while I gave you proof to whom John was sent to and to whom he wrote to. You can believe what you want to, and you will, yet personal opinions means nothing. but that it is your personal opinion. God is not impress with what we believe apart from his own testimony.

And you also have a personal opinion about whom He was writing. There is no introduction to 1 John, so there is only the evidences in the text. He is not writing to the lost, but to the Church. Who was the Church at the time John wrote? Both Jew and Gentile, but primarily Gentiles. The "us" and "our" is the Church, and the "world" is everyone else. This is not a juxtaposition between Jew and Gentile, but between the saved and unsaved.

While I agree that all of the word of God from Genesis to Revelation is for all of God's people, yet, still the truth stands as far as to whom the apostles were sent to and to whom Paul was sent to.

Paul's agreement with John and Peter that he would go to the Gentiles and they would focus on the Jews was not a permanent arrangement. At first the 12 were sent to the Jews. But they didn't stop their ministry when the Jews didn't listen. Peter was the first to go to the Gentiles. And all the 12 eventually went to the Gentiles, as they spread out from Jerusalem to other parts of the world.

 

[Jim]

@Jim

As a man, we are to love others as our own selves, which of course we all fall short of. We are not commanded to love those who boldly confess hatred for God, his word and his people, we hate them with a godly hatred.

Psalms 139:21​

“Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?”

Psalms 139:22​

“I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.”

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

As a man, I do not know who God loves or hates, so, as man, I show kindness to all men until they reveal themselves to me, then I avoid them and look forward to the day that I'm no longer around such people. Pretty sure Jim you do the same.

You claim that unless and before regeneration one is at enmity with God and is God's enemy. Even so, Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

God loves everyone (John 3:16) even those that He will condemn in the end. The "world" in John 3:16 is indeed every man, woman and child in the world.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Seabass]

@Seabass

Noah's faith, which is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit, proved that God's grace had been freely given to him ~ his faith (which was freely giving to him~Philippians 1:29) caused him to moved with fear, to the building of the ark, to saved him and his family from the destruction promised by God that he would do to the world of wicked people. God's grace separated Noah from the world, that caused him to moved with fear ~ Noah had no righteousness of his own to cause him to move with fear, it was given freely. Even after the flood, Noah's proved that he when left to himself could sin with the best of them ~by allowing himself to get drunk and laying naked in his tent. By nature, Noah was no different than those that perished in flood, no different whatsoever, to believe otherwise, is to not believe the word of God.

---Noah's salvation from the flood was due to BOTH God's grace and Noah's obedience. Without both salvation would have been impossible. Not by grace only. Not by works only. But BOTH grace and obedient works. Grace and obedience are not antagonistic to each other, they go together like hand in glove.

---the distinction between Noah and the world was Noah was a righteous man that walked with God while the world was wicked. It was because Noah obediently "walked" with God (Gen 6:9) that he "found" grace in God's eyes. Noah's righteousness is something God "seen" (Gen 7:1) and is why Noah found grace in God's eyes.
In post #3824 of this thread I dealt with the verbs "walked" "found" and "seen" are perfect tense verbs, a completed action. Noah walking with God was not a one time event but an habitual action he had been doing and continued to do...an observable fact that God "seen".
"The perfect verb aspect here looks at Noah’s life as a completed whole up to the time of the flood narrative. God is declaring a settled evaluation: throughout his generations (in contrast to the corrupt world around him), Noah had lived a life of ongoing, faithful compliance with God’s will."

For anyone to claim Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord for some capricious or unknown reason is to dismiss the context and the habitual lifestyle of righteousness Noah had been living up until the flood. Those today who obediently obey God are the one who receive God's grace just as Noah.

----Rom 10:17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Hence faith is not something that unconditionally, randomly given to one person and not another apart from the word of God. Heb 11:7 Noah heard God's word (he was warned of God) and had faith in that word which moved him to obediently build the ark to the saving of his house.

----Noah was not perfectly sinless (for all have sinned) nor does God require perfect sinlessness. Noah lived a faithful obedient life, he 'walked' with God (why he was righteous) and that righteousness was an observable fact God seen.

----Noah did not follow his OWN righteousness...Noah did not devise a way to save himself by himself. Noah was righteous because he obeyed God's righteousness in building the ark....'he that doeth righteousness is righteous'. 1 Jn 3:7. Righteousness is not a label given to some people and not others UNconditionally, randomly or for some unknown reason. Paul wrote "obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16 and it was due to Noah's choosing to walk with God and obey God's commands he was righteous, a righteousness that God "seen" in Noah's obedience.

Faith and righteousness are not abstract ideas that are unconditionally, capriciously given to some men and not others.

I do not think you and I have spoken on Romans 7:5-25.

Total depravity was dealt with in Romans 3:9-18, whereas here in Romans 7:5-25 Paul is addressing his inability to live according to God's good, spiritual, and holy laws because of sin still in his members, that is in his flesh, his old Adamic nature, even though born of the Spirit of God with a new man, there was sin present in all that he did, that kept him from doing the will of God to the degree he desire to to God's will, which was perfectly. That would be to the ultimate happiness to man's soul and for man good, if he could live according to the law of God, as our Lord did, yet because of sin in our flesh, it made it impossible to do so.

Rom 3:10-19 has consistently been taken OUT OF CONTEXT by Calvinists and others. In Rom chapters 1-4 the idea of total depravity is not even in Paul's mind. Rom 1 Paul proves Gentiles are sinners. Rom 2 he proves Jews are sinners and declares that all (Jew & Gentile) are under sin. No where at all does Paul say Jews or Gentiles are unconditionally, innately born sinners.

Those under sin are in need of justification, Paul's theme here in Romans.

In Rom 3 Paul deals with two main issues:
1) the OT law given to the Jew, verses 1-20 and
2) faith, verses 21-30.

Paul's point being when it comes to justification the OT law cannot justify but faith can. The OT law given to the Jews was an advantage to them over the Gentiles, but the OT law left the Jew unjustified as the Gentile (v9) because the OT law required the Jew to keep all of the OT law perfectly sinless, which the Jew could not do leaving them unjustified by the law.

Paul then in verses 10-19 proves the Jews were sinners (not totally depraved) for they did not keep the law perfectly. Paul takes verses from the OT and broadly applying those verses to the Jews proving they were sinners for in verse 19 Paul says:
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:"

Paul is essentially telling the Jews your own OT law given to you says you are sinners. Hence verses 10-18 apply to the Jews. Paul's broader conclusion includes the Gentiles (all the world) being under sin but verses 10-18 apply to those under the law, the Jews.

When Paul says "none are righteous", in what sense is Paul using the term righteous? When the Bible says God is righteous the word 'righteous' is used in an absolute perfect sense, When the Bible says Abel was 'righteous', it does not mean Abel was perfectly sinless but he had an obedient faith in doing as God said whereas his brother Cain did not and was unrighteous. Righteous also deals with how one treats his fellow man in a good righteous way or in a bad unrighteous way.

Since the OT law required the Jew to keep the law sinless, perfectly then Paul is using the term in an absolute perfect sense and no Jew kept the law absolutely, perfectly sinless. Again, Abel was righteous (Heb 11:4) hence the term righteous does not exclude all senses in which the term righteous is used.

When Paul said none seek after God, the Jews not seeking God is a result of a willful choice of the Jews, not because that they were innately born totally depraved. 2 Chron 20:3 there were those who sought the Lord for they set their heart to seek the Lord (2 Chron 11:16) while others did not set their heart to seek God (2 Chron 12:14). David whom Paul quotes sought the Lord (Psa 63:1). Israel was commanded to seek the Lord (Isa 55:6) with the command implying ability to seek God and accountability for not seeking God.

Paul goes further quoting the OT law:
"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Paul does NOT say they were born out of the way or born unprofitable, but they have GONE out of the way and BECOME unprofitable showing personal choice and culpability, not innate total depravity.


The verses below in Rom 3:13-18 do not describe actions infants are physically capable of doing or have the mental capacity, understanding of doing. But these are actions adults willfully choose to do and not forced to do by an innate, totally depraved nature:

"Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery are in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes."

To further prove the OT law is not how one can be justified, Paul in Rom 4 uses two great men the Jews would know about, Abraham and David and demonstrates they were not justified by works of perfectly keeping the OT law (they both sinned) but both were justified by faith. The use of these two great men should persuade Paul's Jewish audience from thinking they could be justified by relying on justification by perfect, flawless work required of the OT law. An obedient faith is the only way to be justified.

Tenets of Calvinism are being read into the Bible.

 

[Jim]

Total depravity was dealt with in Romans 3:9-18, whereas here in Romans 7:5-25 Paul is addressing his inability to live according to God's good, spiritual, and holy laws because of sin still in his members, that is in his flesh, his old Adamic nature, even though born of the Spirit of God with a new man, there was sin present in all that he did, that kept him from doing the will of God to the degree he desire to to God's will, which was perfectly. That would be to the ultimate happiness to man's soul and for man good, if he could live according to the law of God, as our Lord did, yet because of sin in our flesh, it made it impossible to do so.

Not in Romans 7, you are very confused. That is taught in Romans 10:1-4.

Of course, no man can keep the law, not even one law, for that was all that God gave Adam, just one commandment and he still was disobedience!

Also, you are wrong when you said: "So the inability is not unable to do any good at all"

Man is unable to do any spiritual acts pleasing to God, regardless what you and others say, You are saying that hoping to bring works into the gospel of Christ, but not on my watch. Hear the word of God:

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

The word of God said that you are wrong, man is unable to do any spiritual acts pleasing unto God, natural acts, yes, but not spiritual. I'll go with God's word.

Wrong! Without the indwelling Spirit of God it is impossible. And, if one is not in the Spirit, or is not born again, then he is not of God and he's still in his sins. Romans 8:9!

Coming back after a short trip ~ The Lord willing.

Yes, it is quite clear that there was not one who keeps, i.e., obeys, the whole law, but there is not one word that says that there was anyone who could not obey the gospel. Most do not but that is by choice.

The message of Romans 10 is that the message of salvation is to ALL. The Gospel is to all, "But they have not all obeyed the gospel" (Rom 10:16).

Rom 10:21 But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."

Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.

 

[Seabass]

Not in Romans 7, you are very confused. That is taught in Romans 10:1-4.

Of course, no man can keep the law, not even one law, for that was all that God gave Adam, just one commandment and he still was disobedience!

Also, you are wrong when you said: "So the inability is not unable to do any good at all"

Man is unable to do any spiritual acts pleasing to God, regardless what you and others say, You are saying that hoping to bring works into the gospel of Christ, but not on my watch. Hear the word of God:

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

The word of God said that you are wrong, man is unable to do any spiritual acts pleasing unto God, natural acts, yes, but not spiritual. I'll go with God's word.

Wrong! Without the indwelling Spirit of God it is impossible. And, if one is not in the Spirit, or is not born again, then he is not of God and he's still in his sins. Romans 8:9!

Coming back after a short trip ~ The Lord willing.

In Rom 7: Continuing from Rom 6 Paul is showing that justification does not allow for sinning...shall we sin so grace can abound? God forbid! Justification requires an obedient, holy life.

Paul begins the chapter speaking about the adulteress woman. A woman has a husband but lives with another man is an adulteress. But if her husband is dead then she is free from the law to be married to another man. Paul's point is a Christian is married to Christ and His NT gospel but if that Christian tries to follow Moses and his law then that person is trying to keep two law, a type of spiritual adultery... like the woman trying to have two husbands. But since that first law of Moses is now dead, taken out of the way by Christ, that freed the Jew from that law to be married to Christ and His NT without committing spiritual adultery.

Paul is showing his Jewish audience they have been freed from that OT law that made them slaves to sin and those "in Christ" have been delivered from that OT "bondage of sin". They are now servants of righteousness.

(Side note: I cannot count how many times I have seen people who do not like something the NT says, so they think they can flip back to the OT and use it as an excuse, use it as a loophole to get around what the NT says. The Jews could not be justified by the OT law yet these people think they can be. Why do people want to go back to that law, back to a bondage of sin?)

The rest of Rom 7 deals with Jews now having freedom from that OT law of bondage that required sinless perfection to be justified. Anything less than perfection, sin becomes the master under that OT law. The context is not describing a totally depraved person but the frustration the Jew faced in trying to keep that OT law perfectly but failed....

"O wretched man that I am!" Paul NEVER said this wretched man was innately born totally depraved or that he willed to do what is wrong or that he despised the law of God. Rather Paul describes a man who willed to do right but failed and hated his failure. A man that knew right from wrong. A man who delights in the law of God and saw that the law was good. This is the exact opposite of what totally depraved person would be.
Paul carries this idea from Rom 6 into Rom 8 where there is no condemnation in Christ. Those who live obediently to Christ will not be condemned but if the Christian turns to chose to live after the flesh he will be condemned.... for justification does not allow for sinning. One does what he sets his mind to do...set the mind on the flesh then one serves the flesh. Set the mind on things of the Spirit one does what is spiritual.
Rom 8:9
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
"in the flesh" means one chooses to set the mind on fleshly things
"in the Spirit" means one chooses to mind spiritual things
"Spirit of God dwelleth in you" Eph 5:18 Paul commanded to be filled with the Spirit and gives 5 participles in HOW one is filled with the Spirit through speaking singing, making melody, giving, submitting.

Col 3:16 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; (How to let the word dwell in you? BY) teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Paul equates being filled with the Spirit in Eph 5:18 to the word of Christ dwelling in you" in Col 3:16.

Hence being filled with the Spirit is not some emotional, miraculous, unconditional event that takes place separate and apart from the word. Again, Paul COMMANDED those Ephesians to be filled with the Spirit and commands are to be obeyed and without obedience to the word of Christ the Spirit will not dwell in one.

So apart from the word one cannot, as you say, do what is pleasing to God. Saul could not do what was pleasing to God apart from the word, he was persecuting Christians. But this does not mean Saul could do no good thing at all. For upon receiving God's word, he was willing and able to be hear, be taught and obey the command to be baptized and wash away his sin thereby converting to Christianity.
Atheists are capable of doing good....give money to the poor, clothes to the needy and food to the hungry but apart from the word they cannot please God. A totally depraved person would have no concern for the poor, needy and hungry, would have no concern for God's word but would just love to wallow in sin and nothing more. The idea of innate total depravity is totally foreign to what the Bible teaches.

Nothing in Rom 8 at all about men being born innately totally depraved and unable to do any good at all. Lost men, as those Jews in Acts 2, could do not do what is pleasing to God apart from His word. Hence Peter preached to them God's word and while lost (spiritually dead) they were willing and able to hear Peter, understand what he spoke, be pricked in the heart by those words of God, understand their lost state, able to ask what to do about their lost state and obey Peter's command in repenting and being baptized. Nothing in Acts 2 required the Holy Spirit to first miraculously act upon those Jews ridding them of their supposed "totally depravity" so they could then hear, understand, be pricked, ask what shall we do and obey. That idea is read into the Bible.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

Please explain what you mean that baptism is spiritual.

You answer my question first.

2 Thess. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them "that perish"; "because" "they received not" the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And "for this cause" God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned "who believed not the truth", but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Did God "Withhold" from these men the capacity to "receive the Love of the Truth".

Let's see if you will answer the question.

 

[Seabass]

@Seabass

1) You said: "And Paul then contrasts this Jew trying to find justification by perfect works"

You are so wrong as you have been on just about everything you have said thus far on this subject. Actually, both here and to the churches of Galatia, Paul is dealing with adding "any work of a law" that demands sinners to have an active part in, before one can truly be justified, and know that he is. Some taught circumcision was needed; some abstaining from certain meats, (@Studyman), many such things~Galatians 2; Colossians 2; and with you and the Campbellites/church of christ, water baptism.

The OT law did require perfect sinless law keeping to be justified by that law and the Jew could do such so that left the Jew as unjustified as the Gentile (Rom 3:9). Hence when it comes to justification the OT law is not the answer but faith (Rom 3).

Paul excludes finding justification through laws that require perfect, flawless law keeping, yet the NT law of Christ that Paul was under (1 Cor 9:21) does not require such flawlessness but requires a simple obedient faith and allows for forgiveness through repentance when the Christian does sin.

Alexander Campbell is not the founder of the church of Christ. 1) The church of Christ already had established congregation in the US before Campbell arrived. 2) Campbell and his father were Presbyterians when coming to the US. How could he start the church of Christ when it repudiates the Presbyterian teachings that filled Campbell's mind? 3) Upon some disagreement with Presbyterians they joined up with the Baptists for about the first 20 years they were in the US. Again, how could he start the church of Christ when his mind was filled with denomination ideas (missionary society, post-premillenialism, etc) that the church of Christ has not ever believed or taught? 4) while with the Baptist he learned his way out of error about baptism, he learned that baptism was by immersion in water for believers for the remission of sins...something the church of Christ has believed, taught and practiced for the last 2000 years since Acts 2. Aside from leaning his way out of error about baptism and issues dealing with the Lord's Supper, I know of no other connections that can be made to Campbell and the church of Christ. 5) Campbell himself never said he was the founder of the church of Christ or that he was even a member of the church of Christ and repudiated the term Cambellite. People 200 years removed from the man make claims for him that he never made himself.
Not only are you spreading heresies of Calvinism now you sprinkle in some dishonesty.

Here is what the church of Christ believed, taught and practiced centuries before Campbell was born and before he learned his way out of denominational error:

Rom 6:17-18
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then freed from sin.

Obedience before justification. The form (type) of doctrine they obeyed was water baptism (2 Thess 1:8). One must obey the gospel of Christ or be in flaming fire. The gospel of Christ is his death burial and resurrection 1 Cor 15:3-4. How then does one obey these 3 historical facts about Christ? BY GOD'S DESIGN it is in water baptism (Rom 6) the old man of sin must DIE, is BURIED, then RAISED UP FROM (resurrected) to then walk in newness of life.

Rejecting water baptism is rejecting the gospel of Christ.

2) You said: "Paul's theme in Romans is justification."

Actually, free justification through Christ's faith and obedience, according to God mercy in providing a surety for his elect in Jesus Christ. You and your friends think it is through water baptism!

read Rom 6:16-17
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin

Christ's obedience in going to the cross makes justification possible for those who conditionally obey from the heart. Justification is not done randomly, unconditionally but obeying from the heart that form (type) of doctrine. Christ's death burial and resurrection is the type and the death burial & resurrection in water baptism is the antitype.

3.) You said: "But an underlying topic Paul deals with here in chapter 7,8 (and in Chapters 3,4,5) is that justification does not come by the OT law and its requirement of flawless works apart from Christ. Failure of the OT law in Rom 8:1-3:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh" the OT law required perfect obedience but the flesh was too weak to fulfill that requirement."

Seabass, the flesh is indeed weak, without spiritual strength, so God sent His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin, to condemn sin in the flesh, that his elect could be delivered from sin and condemnation, through Jesus' faith and obedience, since we could not render that in our own flesh, even the very simplest commandment, such as Adam had in the flesh without a sinful nature and he could not.

when Paul says the flesh is weak he is talking about the flesh not being able to keep the OT law perfectly.

What the OT law could not do was justify because the flesh was weak in not being able to keep that OT law perfectly, Has nothing at all to do with the total depravity, that the Jew was unable to keep the law due to be innately born totally depraved.

4.) You said: "Nothing about here at all about total depravity."

Well, you are wrong~A verse that you quoted said: "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh" ~ Jesus came to do what our flesh could not do, that is please God by doing spiritual acts that God could accept as pleasing in His sight! Jessu did this perfect, in thought, word, and deed, from conception until death.

Coming back to this since I desire to handle this in depth, tha to quickly pass over it.

You are reading the idea of total depravity into the verses.

If the false teachings of original sin/total depravity/sin nature were true then Christ would have been born with it too.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

You answer my question first.

2 Thess. 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them "that perish"; "because" "they received not" the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And "for this cause" God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned "who believed not the truth", but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Did God "Withhold" from these men the capacity to "receive the Love of the Truth".

Let's see if you will answer the question.

I always answer questions asked~no problem.

God did not withhold the power to believe ~ He did not have to do so, their own deceived heart that they got from father Adam did that for them. So there I answered it.

But, I will also tell you the truth that's on the other side of the coin, which truth you men reject, with hatred and mocking. God did not give those whom he sent a strong delusion by not giving them the power to believe as he gives to his very elect. So there, deal with it, and if you do not like it, tell God when you see Him which will be very soon for all of us.

Romans 9:18​

“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”

Be back later after some meetings.

God hardens men's heart by withholding the same grace he gives to His own. By doing so, men's hearts naturally hardens itself against God. Just ask Pharaoh when you see him in that day.

God is not indebted to anyone, angles or men; but he gives freely to whomsoever He wills, and neither you nor myself have any right to say why does He do thus and thus.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

I always answer questions asked~no problem.

God did not withhold the power to believe ~ He did not have to do so, their own deceived heart that they got from father Adam did that for them. So there I answered it.

It's your story Red, you are free to tell it any way you wish.

So in your adopted religion, Adam created the heart of these men? Adam was their Father? Therefore, the Head of Christ is not the "God and Father of All", as Paul teaches?

How Fascinating. Where is this actually taught in Scriptures?

But, I will also tell you the truth that's on the other side of the coin, which truth you men reject, with hatred and mocking. God did not give those whom he sent a strong delusion by not giving them the power to believe as he gives to his very elect.

So let me get this right, You have taught for decades that ALL men are Totally Depraved because God punished the entire human race for the "Free Will Choice" that ADAM made. And damned mankind by "Electing" ADAM, "Who had no choice", to create in all men a deceived heart, "so they couldn't" receive the Love of the Truth. And then God Damned all of mankind "BECAUSE" "they received not the love of the truth"?

But the elect, who you have taught for decades, who also has a heart created by Adam, but "BECAUSE" they hit the secret, never mentioned, unknown Holy Lottery, based on no choice they made, is granted mercy.

So then when it is written over and over and over in the God Inspired Scriptures, that God Judges men "According their deeds", in your religion that is a deception? Or is it that God makes a person "Disobedient", them condemns them "BECAUSE" they were disobedient?

So there, deal with it, and if you do not like it, tell God when you see Him which will be very soon for all of us.

I just want you to keep justifying your wicked judgments against God so others can see, and stay away from the voices who promote such blasphemy.

Romans 9:18​

“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”

Your continued insistence that God didn't lay out for His Creation, who receives mercy and who doesn't, is another wicked judgment against God. Paul says flat out what the purpose of the Exodus was.

1 Cor. 10: 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things "were our examples", to the intent "we should not lust after evil things", as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them "for ensamples": and they are written "for our admonition", upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore (BECAUSE of this Biblical Fact) let him "that thinketh" he standeth "take heed" lest he fall.

But Red Baker doesn't believe any of this. This is all a lie, a deception according to your posted religious philosophy. Adam is the Father of humanity, Not God. No one is judged by his own works, because God chooses whom HE will choose, through some random, holy lottery never spoken of, or even implied anywhere in the entire Bible.

Be back later after some meetings.

God hardens men's heart by withholding the same grace he gives to His own. By doing so, men's hearts naturally hardens itself against God. Just ask Pharaoh when you see him in that day.

I just posted for you where Paul said the Exodus was "Written" for our Admonition, and that what happened to them, happened to them for examples to us, " to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted".

If Pharoah was never given a chance to know God, but God destroyed him "BECAUSE" he didn't know God, how is that Just, according to God's definition of Just?

God is not indebted to anyone, angles or men; but he gives freely to whomsoever He wills, and neither you nor myself have any right to say why does He do thus and thus.

But Red, your religion makes a mockery of His Word. He tells men what HE requires of them, and promises them mercy "IF" they would "Yield themselves" to Him, which men are free to do. But according to your posts, you don't believe anything HE teaches. You despise His Judgments, and brag about it. You accuse Him every day of rejecting the same Justice and fair balances HE requires of others, with no evidence at all.

The very foundation of the religious philosophy you have adopted and are tirelessly promoting to others, is that God treats men, the same way HE destroys men for treating others.

That God is a "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of God.

That God is like a man who teaches his son to steal, then punishes him for stealing. Just as you preach that God withholds from men the capacity to obey Him, based on nothing they did, then destroys them "BECAUSE" they refused to obey Him.

I just want everyone to examine and see this popular philosophy made bare, to find the root of it's conception. To "Do truth", by "coming to the light, that these philosophies may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Not hide from the Light, "lest these" Philosophies should be reproved.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

It's your story Red, you are free to tell it any way you wish.

At least I answered your question, and you never did mine, which doesn't surprise me. Plus, I'm answering three to four others at the same time, not complaining, but stating a truth. If David had thirty mighty men that could do more than one task at a time, Jesus has many more and I desire to be one of them for his name sake and glory, God being with me and giving me the wisdom, power to do so, for I have none of my own.

I asked the question that I did knowing that you did not agree with the other three as far a water baptism being the means of forgiven of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost; I did so on purpose much like and for the same purpose what Paul did here: Acts 23:6-9! You guys lay aside your differences to fight against the truth together, how shameful is that, it makes one wonder why are you even in this race.

No, it is not my story, but the truth of the word of God which you vehemently reject with "a show of" humility and love for the truth. I used scriptures to support my position, God being my witness, regardless what you and your so-called three to four other friends say against the truth.

Also, no I'm not free to just speak for God without using His testimony concerning what I'm saying, which before God I labor with all that's within me, God being my witness.

Ezekiel 13:2,3​

““Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!”

Ezekiel 13:7​

“Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?”

Again, no I'm not free to speak for God without using his testimony to support what I'm saying. If I did so, it would just be a vision, a desire, from my own deceived heart. Woe be unto him that does so!

Read all of Ezekiel 13!

So in your adopted religion, Adam created the heart of these men?

Try to be a little honest, knowing I'm asking you to do something that does not comes easy for you, at least not when debating scriptures, and if not here, then pretty sure you mostly likely fail in other areas as well. I would not trust any man that is purposely corrupts God's word for his profit, whatever that profit might be.

Adam did not create anything except being the main source of disobedience and death for all of his posterity. So said the word of God.

1 Corinthians 15:21​

“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Adam was their Father?

Have you never read Luke 3~ that over and over again said: "which was the son of" ~ all the way back to Adam! Also did we not all come from one blood? Whose blood? Adam! Acts 17:26. But, more than that, before God there's truly are only two men that represents all of mankind~the first Adam that was of the earth ~ and the second Adam that was from heaven, each represents their posterity or seed! Romans 5:12-19 proves this truth, which time will not permit me to go into details. But enough said to prove my point, and it is amazing that men like you are so ignorant of these simple truths.

Therefore, the Head of Christ is not the "God and Father of All", as Paul teaches?

Of course he is, but that is altogether a different subject Mr. "Wanna Be" Theologian.

So let me get this right,

You would never present it right if you try a thousand times over. Because you must put a spin on what I teach, in order to give your false doctrine some credibility, in order to trap your simple minded followers. You have been following too many of Bernie Sanders' speeches, or is it that you come from the same family?

You have taught for decades that ALL men are Totally Depraved because God punished the entire human race for the "Free Will Choice" that ADAM made.

Let's get this right before our readers. God created Adam the head of our race, and gave him all that he needed to continue in the state in which He created Adam. Placed him in a beautiful garden, with a beautiful wife, unclothed, with one simple commandment to keep~Adam had a the dream life, the best life, that every man only wish he had. Adam lack not one thing to make him more happy and contented, not one thing. God gave him everything to continue in that state~he had no sinful nature to hinder him. The only thing Adam did not have was God did not secured that state for him, but left him to his own free will, which will was pure, and after God's image. Adam was created a mutable being, not immutable ~ only God is so, no angels, no man is immutable.

And damned mankind by "Electing" ADAM, "Who had no choice", to create in all men a deceived heart, "so they couldn't" receive the Love of the Truth. And then God Damned all of mankind "BECAUSE" "they received not the love of the truth"?

God did not elect Adam to fail, or to sin! If that is what you are trying to say, your words are not easy to follow. Maybe you can interpret this for me, you are not making a lot of sense. I will say this, once Adam sinned, then yes he lost the power to do good, he lost God's image of wisdom, righteousness, and knowledge, and became a servant of sin and the devil.

But the elect, who you have taught for decades, who also has a heart created by Adam, but "BECAUSE" they hit the secret, never mentioned, unknown Holy Lottery, based on no choice they made, is granted mercy.

You do not have the gift to present your side in a manner that is easy to follow. But I will say this: Before the world's foundation was laid, God in His infinite foreknowledge, choose some to be his children that he would show mercy to according to his own purpose and will, before any had the choice to do evil of good. Per Romans 9:11!

Romans 9:11​

“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”

2nd Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

Now, do you have a problem with this? If so, tell Gdo that you do when you see him, which will not be too long. I wanna to be there when you do. I hope you have some disposable pull ups on.

Coming back to finish.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Your continued insistence that God didn't lay out for His Creation, who receives mercy and who doesn't, is another wicked judgment against God.

All I did was to quote Romans 9:18......... and you came back with this? No, it is you, that continuously reject God's word, that God's mercy is to whomsoever God wills to shew mercy to ~ and it is not based on our works, but solely upon God's will alone.

I am speaking concerning salvation from sin and condemnation~not concerning our practical salvation while living in this world, because, our works does depend to the degree God gives his blessing to us as we travel through this word, an dit is to degree we are obedience to his word.

Paul says flat out what the purpose of the Exodus was.

1 Cor. 10: 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things "were our examples", to the intent "we should not lust after evil things", as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them "for ensamples": and they are written "for our admonition", upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore (BECAUSE of this Biblical Fact) let him "that thinketh" he standeth "take heed" lest he fall.

But Red Baker doesn't believe any of this. This is all a lie, a deception according to your posted religious philosophy. Adam is the Father of humanity, Not God. No one is judged by his own works, because God chooses whom HE will choose, through some random, holy lottery never spoken of, or even implied anywhere in the entire Bible.

Men will be judged according to their works, never said they would not be. The saints will be rewarded according to their faithfulness, our sins were judged in Christ. The wicked will be judged by their sins and cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Saints should take heed to such scriptures as 1st Corinthians 10, lest we be judged here in this life.

But Red, your religion makes a mockery of His Word. He tells men what HE requires of them, and promises them mercy "IF" they would "Yield themselves" to Him, which men are free to do.

Free Mercy to those dead in tresspasses and sin ~ mercy and blessing to his children as they follow his word. Sinners dead in sins have no power, spiritual strength to do spiritual acts pleasing to God, impossible.

You sir are deceived if you believe sinners dead in sins, can do works pleasing to God in order for God to show mercy, that's call a strong delusion you are living under. There is NO MERCY if our works earns mercy when one does not have spiritual life to start with!

Titus 3:5​

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

That God is a "Do as I say, not as I do" kind of God.

That God is like a man who teaches his son to steal, then punishes him for stealing. Just as you preach that God withholds from men the capacity to obey Him, based on nothing they did, then destroys them "BECAUSE" they refused to obey Him.

I just want everyone to examine and see this popular philosophy made bare, to find the root of it's conception. To "Do truth", by "coming to the light, that these philosophies may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Not hide from the Light, "lest these" Philosophies should be reproved.

Once more, please listen, do not put a spin of my words: God does not without from men the capacity to obey, he does not have to do that, their fleshly deceived heart does that for them!

Jeremiah 17:9​

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

This is true of every single man born through Adam's generation. And men like you preach that they can do spiritual acts pleasing unto God, without first being born of God. How true is Ezekiel words of you men that I quoted above.

Ezekiel 13:2,3​

““Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!”

Ezekiel 13:7​

“Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?”

I just want everyone to examine and see this popular philosophy made bare, to find the root of it's conception.

I more.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

At least I answered your question, and you never did mine, which doesn't surprise me. Plus, I'm answering three to four others at the same time, not complaining, but stating a truth.

Gosh Red, in all the time I have been reading your posts, hundreds of posts, when someone answers your question, you debate them, and discussion concerning their answer ensues. But now all of the sudden, in the event that you actually answer a question from someone else, you don't allow for a discussion? Hold your horse there Mr. Preacher, I am happy to answer your question after the discussion tradition that you always engage in, is over.

And because your mission is self justification, you will spend your time, not addressing the Scriptures I posted, not addressing the evil judgments against God that you make, but as you were taught by the other voice in the garden, you will spend your time "Laboring" to justify yourself, mostly by cherry picking scriptures, separating them from the entire bible, then twisting them to promote a God "that says, but does not".

If David had thirty mighty men that could do more than one task at a time, Jesus has many more and I desire to be one of them for his name sake and glory, God being with me and giving me the wisdom, power to do so, for I have none of my own.

I asked the question that I did knowing that you did not agree with the other three as far a water baptism being the means of forgiven of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost; I did so on purpose much like and for the same purpose what Paul did here: Acts 23:6-9! You guys lay aside your differences to fight against the truth together, how shameful is that, it makes one wonder why are you even in this race.

No, it is not my story, but the truth of the word of God which you vehemently reject with "a show of" humility and love for the truth. I used scriptures to support my position, God being my witness, regardless what you and your so-called three to four other friends say against the truth.

Also, no I'm not free to just speak for God without using His testimony concerning what I'm saying, which before God I labor with all that's within me, God being my witness.

But according to your testimony, promoted by you to others for decades, it doesn't matter what you do, because you were chosen by God based on nothing you chose to do, rather, by a flip of a coin. And because I refuse to adopt your evil judgments against God and His Son, that means my name wasn't drawn in the holy lottery.

I will never be convinced by men like you to turn away from the Holy Scriptures, and "yield myself" to such an evil religious philosophy again. I thank God through the Lord's Christ Jesus for the meat and drink HE has offered to me, and that God created me with the free will to eat it.

Ezekiel 13:2,3​

““Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!”

EZ. 18: 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

See what you did here again Red. You cherry pick scriptures, twist them, then use them to justify your evil judgments against God, and even now, as a club to exact your vengence against someone who would dare to question your adopted religious philosophy.

What if Jesus isn't the deceiver as you imply, and man shall live by "Every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God"? Wouldn't it it wise for you to just consider the possibility that it is you who are deceived, and not God or His Son?

Ezekiel 13:7​

“Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken?”

Again, no I'm not free to speak for God without using his testimony to support what I'm saying. If I did so, it would just be a vision, a desire, from my own deceived heart. Woe be unto him that does so!
Read all of Ezekiel 13!

Read all of Ezekiel.

Try to be a little honest, knowing I'm asking you to do something that does not comes easy for you, at least not when debating scriptures, and if not here, then pretty sure you mostly likely fail in other areas as well. I would not trust any man that is purposely corrupts God's word for his profit, whatever that profit might be.

But remember Red, you are the implying God is a Liar when HE said;

Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

And because I believe Every Word of God, I am judged by you are a lair as well.

You are the one implying Paul is a liar when Paul said;

Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared "to all men",

12 Teaching us (All men) that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

But you are preaching to any one who listens for decades, that there is no "Denying ungodliness", denying oneself, "Yielding Oneself", "offering oneself", because we have NO CHOICE! Salvation, in your adopted religion, is given to men by chance, by a flip of a coin, not based on man's free will choice to "Turn to Him".

When all of the Word's of God are considered, this is a false teaching.

Adam did not create anything except being the main source of disobedience and death for all of his posterity. So said the word of God.

1 Corinthians 15:21​

“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

This says "by man came death". Not as you preach, "by God came death", or "be satan came death". This is your great error Red. "MAN" is created in the likeness of God, with free will. Animals are not. There is no Law of God telling a dog not to kill a cat. A dog isn't judged by God according to it's deeds. But mortal humans are not created in the same way. They "have" a choice. Otherwise, there would be no law for them, just as there is no law for dogs.

The very Law, "thou shall not" is living proof that men have free will. The first Adam chose death, the 2nd Adam chose life and offered it to God for my sin, so that I can be reconciled back to God, and become like the 2nd Adam. That is the Mark, for the Prize Paul pressed towards every day, the perfection that was in Christ Jesus. And he too, like me and Caleb and Shadrack and Zacharias, are surrounded by other voices in the world God placed us in, that demean, discredit, discourage us from pressing towards the prize of the high calling of God, that was in Christ Jesus.

You are part of those voices Red.

For that I am sorry, but not as sorry as I am for all the people you have influenced by your wicked judgments against God.

Have you never read Luke 3~ that over and over again said: "which was the son of" ~ all the way back to Adam! Also did we not all come from one blood? Whose blood? Adam!

Consider if you can, the utter foolishness of your preaching here. God created Adam from the dust of the ground, and gave him Life (Blood). He said to Adam, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return".

And somehow you twist this to mean Adam is my father. But I have been here before with you many times, and I could post all the Words of God where it is written that God is the creator and Father of all. But it wouldn't matter Red, because your life's mission is Not to Seek God, rather, to seek seek self justification and to preserve and protect your most precious and treasured possession, Your Pride.

Enough for now.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

Please explain what you mean that baptism is spiritual.

Kenneth Copeland, Ted Haggard, Jim Baker, Bill Gothard, Tony Alamo, Bob Coy, Jimmy Swaggart, Mike Hintz, Robert Tilton, the list goes on and on, and I can't even count the Catholic Priests, who are all circumcised, and were all baptized in the Name of Christ Jesus. Just as the Pharisees and Sadducees were circumcised and cleansed with baptism of water in God's Name. Even Paul tells of the Israelites that were "Baptized in the Red Sea".

And yet cutting all the loose skin off their penis, and the water baptism meant nothing. As Paul teaches, "For circumcision verily profiteth, "if thou keep the law": but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

All these men and millions more, used religion to molest other peoples children to satisfy the evil lust of their flesh, steal money and property from widows, scammed millions and millions of dollars from those who trusted them to satisfy the lust and greed of their wicked flesh, and preached a religion that contradicts the Holy Scriptures in every case. And they were all "Baptized in the Name of Christ Jesus".

Greek for Baptism means to be "immersed". Completely committed. When we are in water, it influences our entire body. Nothing is spared by the influence. Every inch of our flesh is affected/influenced by the water.

For me, this means when a person is baptized in the Name of Christ Jesus, we are immersed into His Teaching, it effects our entire life, influences our entire flesh. What we do, how we walk, thoughts we dwell on, etc. It's a new way of life. It's Spiritual, just as the cutting off the loose skin of a penis, which leaves women out I guess, really means to "Cast off" the sins of the flesh, and no longer letting it rule our life, rather, "bring every Thought into captivity, unto the obedience of Christ.

Because really, is God interested in penises, or swimming pools? No Red Baker.

Rom. 8: 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Jesus proved that a mortal flesh and blood human can walk in the Spirit, if he commits himself.

This world's religions promote a philosophy that Jesus wasn't tempted in all ways as other humans. That HE reserved unto Himself God Powers that HE withholds from all other humans, and that is how HE overcame sin. That HE didn't overcome sin by Faith as HE requires of all others, rather, HE reserved Powers unto Himself no other human was allowed to have. Then HE Glorified Himself because HE Overcame, and gave Himself a name above all other humans.

It's the same mindset you chose to adopt and promote about the God and Father of All, that HE withholds from humans the ability to turn to Him, and then punishes them "because" they didn't turn to Him.

 

[Seabass]

Acts 17:30
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"
Some thoughts on this verse:

---Paul did NOT say God now commandeth all men everywhere to have belief only.

---Paul men everywhere commanded to repent. This does NOT mean repentance alone saves but "repent" is used as a synecdoche (part for the whole) where it includes belief (Jn 3:16) confession (Mt 10:32-33) and baptism (MK 16:16).

---all men everywhere have been COMMANDED to repent with the command logically implying men have the ability, responsibility and accountability to change. If man were totally depraved then this command of God is senseless, unjust in that it has God commanding totally depraved men to do the impossible then punishing this depraved man when he does not do the impossible. A person cannot do anything more than what their innate, totally depraved nature allows them to do.

---Not only is total depravity an attack against God's perfect, holy, just nature it is an attack against the sufficiency of scripture (2 Tim 3:15-16) in that it makes scripture inadequate, insufficient to change the heart of man in that the idea of totally depravity has to have man first be acted upon by the Holy Spirit. Without this miraculous intervention, no man can be changed and scripture itself is useless to change man. Yet the gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation (Rom 1:16) not a miraculous intervention being God's power to salvation.

----all men everywhere have been commanded to repent...God has not selected just a few to repent and only allows that few to repent leaving the rest impenitent and lost. Those in Athens were religious but commanded to repent of their idolatry.


----motivation for all men everywhere to repent: "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;" Some of those Athenians mocked at the truth. Did a totally depraved nature cause this mocking? Lack of a miraculous intervention prevented them from believing the truth? Paul's preaching God's word was sufficient that some believed. The Athenians were not specially elect or pre-regenerated; they were idolaters. Paul tells them they must change because ignorance is not an excuse now and judgment is coming.

Why command those in Athens to repent if an innate, totally depraved nature prevents them from doing so only then face God's judgment?

 

[brightfame52]

Acts 17:30
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"
Some thoughts on this verse:

---Paul did NOT say God now commandeth all men everywhere to have belief only.

Thats to the regenerated elect, God is commanding[present tense] them and causing them to repent, and repentance is always unto the acknowledgement of the Truth which is belief 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

God has people now in the New Covenant era He is commanding to repent and acknowledge the truth, not just in israel amongs jews. Gods commanding is effectual !

Ps 33 9

9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

2 Cor 4:6

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.