"Works Salvation"

[Jim]

In what sense are you using the word salvation? Salvation from sin and condemnation, Romans 4:25; in a vital sense~John 3:5; or salvation in a practical sense from error to truth? 1st Timothy 4:16?

Or salvation in an eternal sense? 2nd Timothy 1:9; Or legally? Matthew 1:21; or final sense Romans 13:11?

Since you men use the word "salvation" so freely, surely you know what sense you are using the word, and desire others to know what you means by using the words Salvation/Save/saved.

Wrong, it is according to how one uses the word: save/saved/salvation! It a practical sense there's synergism when God uses the words save/saved/salvation in the word of God.

in all other senses there is NO synergism when the Spirit uses the words save/saved/salvation! Selah!

It is the fallacy of the Augustinian/Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity that drives you to all those different "senses" of save/saved/salvation. You have produced five "senses" of salvation. But with all of your explanations of the five different senses, there is never any possibility presented in scripture of receiving any one sense without having received all five senses. That is, there is never any occurrence presented in scripture of one being saved in one of your five senses yet being unsaved in the other four senses. There is only salvation, not salvations.

Salvation is a state of being of the spirit of a person in their right standing before God. With respect to the spiritual, there is only the one sense with several results or features of salvation. Salvation is the release, the redemption, from the spiritual effects of and the punishment due for personal sin against God's law. Thus, one is saved when he is gifted by God to be placed in the state of being of his spirit, the right standing before God. That is an act of God changing the person from a wrong standing before God to a right standing before God. It is a onetime instantaneous act of God in which the person is changed from the standing of being a lost sinner to the standing of being a saved saint.

With that then, setting aside any references of monergism or synergism, the next question that arises is if and when in the life of the individual does God give the gift of salvation. I will come back to that later perhaps.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, but much more than you ae prompting.

Doug, the promises of God secured salvation from sin and condemnation for God's elect, their works proves that God had given them a new man by His mighty power and grace based upon what His SOn did for them, we are forgiven on the behalf of Christ alone, nothing that we have done....dipping, attacking, marching, etc.

Is the cause of our salvation, but "the results of" the faith of an indwelling Spirit of God!

The difference is the differences between the true gospel and another gospel.

Of course salvation is based solely upon what Jesus did on the cross and His subsequent resurrection. That is not in question. What is in question is how that is applied to an individual. You say that the benefit of Jesus' sacrifice is given for no reason at all other than God's choice. Others say it is given when we give intellectual assent (belief) to the truth of the Gospel. Neither of these is correct according to Scripture.
If it were solely God's choice of who is saved, then all people everywhere would accept Jesus, because it is not God's choice to condemn anyone (2 Pet 3:9).
If it were simply based upon "belief only", then the leaders of the Jews would not have remained condemned in John 12:42-43. And God would not have told us that there are certain actions that lead to or result in our receiving His gift of salvation/forgiveness/adoption (Gal 3:26-27, Rom 10:9-10, Eph 5:26-27, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, etc.).

 

[Doug Brents]

In what sense are you using the word salvation? Salvation from sin and condemnation, Romans 4:25; in a vital sense~John 3:5; or salvation in a practical sense from error to truth? 1st Timothy 4:16?

Or salvation in an eternal sense? 2nd Timothy 1:9; Or legally? Matthew 1:21; or final sense Romans 13:11?

Since you men use the word "salvation" so freely, surely you know what sense you are using the word, and desire others to know what you means by using the words Salvation/Save/saved.

All of the above.
Salvation - forgiveness of sin, redemption from the penalty of sin (death), resurrection to life with God in Heaven, given new life in Christ.

Wrong, it is according to how one uses the word: save/saved/salvation! It a practical sense there's synergism when God uses the words save/saved/salvation in the word of God.

in all other senses there is NO synergism when the Spirit uses the words save/saved/salvation! Selah!

Are you saying that by our own power we can forgive ourselves of sin and free ourselves of its consequences?
There is no more synergism to our salvation/forgiveness than there was in the knocking down of the walls of Jericho, or the multiplication of the widow's oil, or the other widow's flour and oil, or the cleansing of Naaman's leprosy, or the parting of the Red Sea, or any of the other acts of God in the OT. The participation of the people did not contribute to the power, or ability of God.

But the actions of the people were essential to the faith of the people involved, and it was through their faith that the blessing was applied to their life.

Bold lettering is mine, for discussion.

Doug. let me ask you a question in light of Romans 7:18: "Is it the flesh doing these spiritual acts, or a new man within us doling them?"

Neither. The flesh, in Rom 7:18 is referring to our sinful nature. The "sin nature" is not willing to do, or capable of doing, what God commands. But the new man has not yet been born/created before salvation is received, so it is not yet present to be able to do them either.

 

[Red Baker]

@Doug Brents

If it were solely God's choice of who is saved, then all people everywhere would accept Jesus, because it is not God's choice to condemn anyone (2 Pet 3:9).

There you folks go again, playing with sound bites.

2nd Peter 3:9​

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

So, I ask you four questions ~ very simple questions, that can and should be answered using the word of God.

1.) What is God promise?

2.) To whom are they for?

3.) What does God's promise include?

4.) Will God's eternal purposes and promises fail?

I'll wait for your answers.

 

[Red Baker]

@Doug Brents

All of the above.
Salvation - forgiveness of sin, redemption from the penalty of sin (death), resurrection to life with God in Heaven, given new life in Christ.

Well Doug, you really never prove the above that I mentioned, you sorta covered two, again, sorta!

Are you saying that by our own power we can forgive ourselves of sin and free ourselves of its consequences?

Now Doug, how in the world did you come to that conclusion is beyond me? Absolutely we have no part in our salvation from sin and condemnation and certainly cannot forgive our own sins.

There is no more synergism to our salvation/forgiveness than there was in the knocking down of the walls of Jericho, or the multiplication of the widow's oil, or the other widow's flour and oil, or the cleansing of Naaman's leprosy, or the parting of the Red Sea, or any of the other acts of God in the OT. The participation of the people did not contribute to the power, or ability of God.

Well there my answer to my question. Now I see how you thought what you asked me. Doug, I was referring to our practical salvation of growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and truths of his gospel, nothing more. There are many works we are commanded to do and should do if growth in grace is to be made by us. Doug, that's why I gave.................

1st Timothy 4:16​

“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.”

To you to consider.

Doug, there is a practical salvation that believers do participate in (synergism) by doing just what Paul commanded Timothy to do, and if we do not, then we do not grow in grace and knowledge and we leave ourselves open to to overcome by our spiritual enemies. This salvation Lot failed at and Abraham did not. The church art Corinth failed at, the Philadelphia church of Revelation 3:7, did not, etc.

Neither. The flesh, in Rom 7:18 is referring to our sinful nature. The "sin nature" is not willing to do, or capable of doing, what God commands. But the new man has not yet been born/created before salvation is received, so it is not yet present to be able to do them either.

Then, I ask you this question~how did you get born again? Doug, there are only two natures at work in this world~a child of God has two, a lost person has only one, so pray to tell me how did you get born again?