Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

I suppose Jesus wanted us to look up:

6 But I am a worm and not a man

But you didn't feel like bolding that one, did you, lol?
Actually, he did.
Unfortunately space was limited and my post was long enough.

The Hebrew word “worm” isn’t just any worm. It is a specific worm. It is the worm that is crushed to make the red die used in the Temple. It is crushed to create a CRIMSON stain (like blood). So it points to what Jesus was doing. It points to the Blood of Christ being shed. It points to the blood of the temple sacrifice that washes away sin. It points to the Temple itself where God dwells and where redemption is found.

However, there is another common practice in Judaism called “a comparison of equals” where other places where an important word appear are used to interpret each other. It is the modern concept of “let scripture interpret scripture” as practiced by first century Jews. Another place that “worm” appears it is translated as “Crimson” … “though your sins be as crimson, they shall be white as snow”. Jesus probably would have been delighted for you to recall THAT while reading about the crimson worm and remembering Jesus being crushed before your eyes by “wicked men” (Acts 2).
 
No one is upset with Christ "bearing our sins".....

You 100% are, lol.

"No wrath for Jesus!"
"No wrath for Jesus!"
"No wrath for Jesus!"
"No wrath for Jesus!"

Do your sins deserve wrath?

"Well... uh... I guess."

"No wrath for Jesus!"
"No wrath for Jesus!"
"No wrath for Jesus!"
 
It directly offends our PRIDE, a man will go to hell just for his pride!

We want to PAY our own way, we want to be masters of our destiny, we want to not OWE someone something.


Remember what Peter said right before the cross?

"Lord, may this never happen to you!"


But why? Because he loved Jesus so much he felt sorry for him? No!

Peter knew that if Jesus just died in ignominy it meant the death of all his own dreams of greatness.
So why are you so prideful to believe Christ had to suffer the wrath of God for YOU?

You're right about Peter. What you're failing to recognize is your own pride. None of us are absent Pride. None of us.

Seperating ourselves from every last ounce of Pride is an almost impossible task. Death literally leaves us empty of ourselves. It is one of the reasons God doesn't just separate us from this world entirely. Living is Pride. The Pride of life. It must be experienced to be understood.
 
So why do you so prideful to believe Christ had to suffer the wrath of God for YOU?

Because God's Word says he bore my punishment and Yawheh laid on him my iniquities.

You're right about Peter. What you're failing to recognize is your own pride. None of us are absent Pride. None of us.

I never said I had no pride, I struggle with pride every day. You misread what I said here.

Seperating ourselves from every last ounce of Pride is an almost impossible task.

I would agree, but we should still fight it every day.
 
You 100% are, lol.

"No wrath for Jesus!"
"No wrath for Jesus!"
"No wrath for Jesus!"
"No wrath for Jesus!"

Do your sins deserve wrath?

"Well... uh... I guess."

"No wrath for Jesus!"
"No wrath for Jesus!"
"No wrath for Jesus!"
My sin has no value. It is death.

I never said Christ didn't experience wrath. You're thinking like a Calvinist.

Christ faced our wrath. Sin is much worse than you actually think it is. Wrath is solely upon us. God never required such from His Son. The willingness of the Son is what is lost to you.
 
Because God's Word says he bore my punishment and Yawheh laid on him my iniquities.



I never said I had no pride, I struggle with pride every day. You misread what I said here.



I would agree, but we should still fight it every day.
God punishes us for sin? Or for our own benefit.

I'm not saying you believe you're absent Pride. It is how you apply such to your doctrine that is the issue.

Is God proud?

Think about that for a moment ...
 
My sin has no value. It is death.

You really want your sin to have no negative value, I can tell.

But sin deserves something.

Sin deserves the wrath of God.

No sinner wants that, lol.

I never said Christ didn't experience wrath. Christ faced our wrath.

Uh... no, I never gave Christ my wrath, lol.

And if I did, it sure as hell would not atone for my sins, it would just give me more sin.
 
As I understand it … that’s about right.

The hard part of the discussion is NOBODY that I know disagrees about WHAT Christ accomplished. The disagreement is over WHY he suffered it (yes, it was because of our sins … but was it a demand of God’s Justice that Christ suffer in our place or was it the means to defeat sin and death?).
Defeat sin and death
 
Not my sins, they don't need any punishing at all.

My sins are no big deal!

Jesus just died to "heal" me in my own inherent goodness.
 
You have misinformation here, by the way. They are not the same Hebrew word just so you know.
[Psa 22:6 KJV] 6 But I [am] a worm,[H8438] and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
[Isa 1:18 KJV] 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson,[H8438] they shall be as wool.

[H8438] תּוֹלָע tôwlâʻ, to-law'; and (feminine) תּוֹלֵעָה tôwlêʻâh; or תּוֹלַעַת tôwlaʻath; or תֹּלַעַת tôlaʻath; from H3216; a maggot (as voracious); specifically (often with ellipsis of H8144) the crimson-grub, but used only (in this connection) of the color from it, and cloths dyed therewith:—crimson, scarlet, worm.

(Just so you know)
 
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I mean, both, but Christ must bear our punishment first.

So Christ had to bear the punishment of Moses first?


Yes. He has a lot to be proud of.

Although he also has humility, it's not a strict dichotomy here, because it is humility in specific things.

Based upon your theology.... Pride is immoral, yet God is Proud.....

I don't believe you're actually thinking properly about this. You're viewing this through the "lens" of man made doctrines.

Care to reconcile your self defeating position?
 
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You really want your sin to have no negative value, I can tell.

But sin deserves something.

Sin deserves the wrath of God.

No sinner wants that, lol.

Not true at all. At every turn, I see my guilt. There is no real humility without a lingering sense of guilt in our lives.

Uh... no, I never gave Christ my wrath, lol.

You actually are and don't realize it. It is your uncontrolled anger toward sin that drives your theology.

And if I did, it sure as hell would not atone for my sins, it would just give me more sin.

Atonement is found the value of the sacrifice of Christ. Your position presents sins as being equal to the value of Christ.
 
Defeat sin and death

Anything not of faith is sin.

Good things are often sinful and people don't even realize they are.......

Rom 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Is an independent mind with the ability to act contrary to the "mind of God" inevitably sinful?
 
If you're comfortable with calling Jesus a worm, why are you upset with him bearing your sin?!

It makes no sense, it's a double standard.
It is no "double standard", but one standard for all theology ... SOLA SCRIPTURA!
As the Bereans would say: "Does the WORD actually say what people claim it says?"

You claim Jesus "bore my sin".
I accept that because Scripture says : "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." - [1 Peter 2:24]

You claim that Jesus "bore my wrath" and Jesus "bore the wrath of God the Father".
The closest that I find in Scripture to supporting that claim is:
  • "Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted." - [Isaiah 53:4]
    • It states "we esteemed him stricken" indicating this was the opinion of men and not the pronouncement of fact by God.
    • The fulfillment of this prophetic scripture is found in all of the gospels ... the "we" that esteemed him striken by God were the unbelieving crowds that mocked Jesus at his death.
    • I am uncomfortable following the God hating Jews into a teaching that no Apostle ever made and affirmed.
  • "whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins." - [Romans 3:25]
  • "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." - [1 John 2:2]
  • "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." - [1 John 4:10]
    • The word "propitiation" is the only other evidence that supports wrath directly in scripture (by directly, I mean without arguing a symbolic parallel between Jesus and the OT animal offering as an example, which involves speculation rather than exegesis).
    • The strength of the "propitiation" argument is:
      • It is made by NT writers, so directly applies to Christ
      • "wrath" is within the acceptable definition of the word "propitiation"
        • (ἱλαστήριον hilastḗrion, hil-as-tay'-ree-on; neuter of a derivative of G2433; an expiatory (place or thing), i.e. (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specially) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple):—mercyseat, propitiation.
    • The weakness is that in the OT usage, it is applied to the "mercyseat" ... the lid of the Ark to which the blood was applied to obtain mercy rather than the "punished animal".
    • A second weakness is that it places God and Zeus on equal footing when it comes to demanding punishment/placating as the price to "buy" mercy ... a pagan concept otherwise alien to biblical thought.

So for me, so important a concept as "transferred wrath" requires more than the opinion of a God-hating crowd and a pagan "possible" definition of a word that no NT writer bothered to mention any details on.

Yes, there was a transfer of sin.
No, I cannot affirm from Scripture a transfer of wrath.

For me, it really is a Sola Scriptura thing rather than any aversion to the concept.
Piecing it together, Christ (he who knew no sin) became sin and it was OUR SINS that were crucified on that Cross. God the Son cannot be defeated, only Death, Hell, and Sin could be defeated. It was "the curse" that was "cursed" on that "tree". That points towards a Christis Victor Atonement.
  • (Jesus died to accomplish what his death did accomplish) ... wrath is stored up for a final "day of wrath" (judgement) for those that reject "so great a salvation"; and to those that believe: "there is no judgement" [John 3:18].
 
[Psa 22:6 KJV] 6 But I [am] a worm,[H8438] and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
[Isa 1:18 KJV] 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson,[H8438] they shall be as wool.

[H8438] תּוֹלָע tôwlâʻ, to-law'; and (feminine) תּוֹלֵעָה tôwlêʻâh; or תּוֹלַעַת tôwlaʻath; or תֹּלַעַת tôlaʻath; from H3216; a maggot (as voracious); specifically (often with ellipsis of H8144) the crimson-grub, but used only (in this connection) of the color from it, and cloths dyed therewith:—crimson, scarlet, worm.

(Just so you know)

Isa 1:18 is an argument between God and mankind. Isa 1:18 is inadequate in every "Hebrew" edition. You should review Codex Alexandrinus here.
 
I found an interesting comment online about PSA and Hodge who in his 3 volume systematic theology work presented for the first time the doctrine laid out. He took from Calvin and Luther and developed the PSA theory into a doctrine.

Hodge maintains that not only does the Bible teach that the innocent may suffer in place of the guilty but that the providence of God in history demonstrates the fact. He is right that the Pentateuch does mention three times the phrase: "God visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation" (Ex. 20:5, Num 14:18, Deut. 5:9). What Hodge fails to mention, however, is that this punishment of the children for the deeds of their forefathers seems to be revoked in Ezekiel 18:2-4, 20.

Please complete the citation by Hodge, “…of those that hate Him.” The point in Ex. 20:5; Num. 14:18; and Deut. 5:9 is never that children are being punished for their parents’ sins. Deut. 24:16 make it abundantly clear that the individual, even in the OT, was culpable for his own sins, “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.” Thus, the principle asserted in the Pentateuch is not being repealed, rethought, or reconsidered in the exilic period; the sense of Hebrew justice is not evolving; just the opposite it has devolved by Ezekiel’s day and is being corrected by him. The point made by God through Moses, and reiterated through Ezekiel, is that children would be affected by their parents’ sin. Parents model for their children what is right and what is wrong. Unfortunately, the parents’ sinful behavior and habits are often followed by their children (this is readily seen today in the proliferation of abusive behavior by children who were raised in abusive homes). The point in Ezekiel is that the children, now in exile, were blaming God for being unjust (Ezk. 18:25a, 29b). They came to believe He was punishing them for their forefathers’ sins – a clear misunderstanding of Ex. 20:5; Num. 14:18; and Deut. 5:9). Regrettably, therefore, these same children frequently found themselves practicing the same sinful acts as their parents’. Therefore, the admonition of Ezekiel 18 is for them to accept the same just punishment for such actions. God is driving home the point through his prophet that each child is still individually responsible (Ezk. 18:4). The misunderstanding of the exiles, which could lead to irresponsibility and fatalism, was expressed in the contemporary proverb in Judah: "The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge" (Ezk. 18:2) i.e., what the father did caused judgment to be meted out against his children. The people believed (cf. Jer 31:27-30; Lam 5:7) that righteousness and wickedness were hereditary; therefore, there was no reason to change one's ways. God’s response through the prophet to this new proverb was that the hereditary principle would cease immediately (v. 3), for it had been erroneously applied to righteousness and unrighteousness. The principle of heredity which Ezekiel’s contemporaries had adopted was erroneous and declared as such by God in chapter 18. The principle of individual responsibility before God has always been true (cf. Gen 2:17, 4:7; Deut 24:16; 2 Kings 14:6; Ezek 3:16-21, 14:12-20, 33:1-20). A son is not bound to be like his father, though that was the concept among Ezekiel's contemporaries, as it often is today.

However, it should be pointed out that Ezk. 18 goes to great lengths to demonstrate that the children can abort the "sin-punishment-inheritance" progression at any time – (if you sin there is punishment and the likelihood that your children will follow in your sinful ways and suffer the same punishment for their own sins). But he must repent and do what is right.

(Part 2) I think your attempt to demonstrate an evolution in ethical and moral perceptions of justice between Moses and Ezekiel is fallacious; just the opposite is true. The sense of justice the people had embraced had devolved into something other than what God had told them with Moses into a skewed sense of justice which Ezekiel was bound to correct.

That said, I think Hodge, along with other of his contemporaries adopted an erroneous view in relation to the passages cited above, and for the reasons I noted above. However, this should not be taken to mean that Hodge’s assertion the innocent may rightfully bear the iniquity of the guilty is incorrect. The entire sacrificial system of the OT supports the idea that of penal substitution. The fact that an innocent lamb could bear the guilt of an individual, let alone the nation, thus freeing that individual from the consequences of his sin is seen throughout the entire OT system. I disagree with Hodge in his specific use in this instance, but not with his assertion.

I have read your posts with great interests and have come to a conclusion. You seek to compare the atoning work of Christ in penal satisfaction with the exactitude of (mainly modern) legal code. Our modern legal code, and subsequent sense of justice, is more interested in pecuniary satisfaction – that what is paid is the precise amount or the exact thing owed; nothing else. Release then, is not a matter of grace, but of right. (E.g. If a thief does the jail time to which he is sentenced then he has paid his debt to society and is free to return to his life.) In this line of thinking, the atonement of Christ becomes legal tender for forgiveness. A substitute can pay the debt of another in a pecuniary arrangement, but the emphasis is on the debt and amount being paid, not on forgiveness. Our entire American penal code is built upon pecuniary satisfaction. Thus, to compare the penal satisfaction of Christ to the American, let alone the global, sense of justice is fallacious.
 
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