Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

Untenable
I could accept it if it were true (just as I accept eternity in hell as unimaginably terrible, but nonetheless true). However, we cannot accept it as true because Dizerner or John McArthur or R.C. Sproul claims it is true. If it were true, then we would expect the WORD of GOD to state that it was true.

Doubly damning is, not only does the word not speak of the wrath of the Father poured onto the Son, it states the opposite:
  • Our sin was forgiven (not transferred).
  • The Father loves the Son.
  • Jesus was "delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God ... crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men" - Act 2:23
Scripture had ample opportunities to mention this transfer of wrath and the anger of the Father poured onto the Son, yet no NT writer even hints at such a thing.
 
I could accept it if it were true (just as I accept eternity in hell as unimaginably terrible, but nonetheless true). However, we cannot accept it as true because Dizerner or John McArthur or R.C. Sproul claims it is true. If it were true, then we would expect the WORD of GOD to state that it was true.

Doubly damning is, not only does the word not speak of the wrath of the Father poured onto the Son, it states the opposite:
  • Our sin was forgiven (not transferred).
  • The Father loves the Son.
  • Jesus was "delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God ... crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men" - Act 2:23
Scripture had ample opportunities to mention this transfer of wrath and the anger of the Father poured onto the Son, yet no NT writer even hints at such a thing.
Amen brother !
 
You really do twist the thoughts of those who reject PSA

While ignoring the fact scripture nowhere states God had to pour out retribution upon Christ to settle his own need to express such wrath on Christ.
he who became sin for us

Jesus took our sin

now if he took and and did not suffer for it.. what good was it to take our sin

actually. the mosaic law teaches PSA

cursed is everyone who does not confirm and obey every word of this law and do them (perfection was required.. if we broke one command our punishment was to be cursed.

Jesus took that curse for us (he paid the debt we owe) as the law also said, cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree

If Jesus did not pay your sin debt, your still dead in your sin. the price of redemption was not only paid. but paid in full.
 
It devalues God, divides the Godhead , pits the Father against the Son, brakes their fellowship, falsely accuses God that He cannot look upon sin resulting in the Father turning His back upon the Son adandoning Him etc.....

which all of the above are untrue.
actually no it does not pit God against himself

It was the love of God that they did what they did

Jesus willingly came and suffered for us..

it was the only way
 
So, in essence, penal substitution posits that Christ's death is a penal substitution, where he endured the punishment due to human sin, satisfying God's justice and enabling reconciliation and forgiveness?
 
actually no it does not pit God against himself

It was the love of God that they did what they did

Jesus willingly came and suffered for us..

it was the only way
According to PSA the Father turned His back on the Son and they were separated because of sin. See here where I have dismantled PSA with a 3 year ongoing study of this topic. I start with God , His nature and character which is where sound doctrine begins.

And yes it divided the Tri-Unity of God. I believed and taught PSA for decades as a staunch Calvinist. I know the doctrine inside out.

 
According to PSA the Father turned Hos back on the Son and they were separated because of sin.
yes.

Thats why Jesus cried out. when the father had to seperate himself from the son. its called spiritual death

He died this death so you could live
See here where I have dismantled PSA with a 3 year ongoing study of this topic. I start with God , His nature and character which is where sound doctrine begins.

The wage of sin is death (spiritual)

if Jesus did not suffer this death, we are still in our sin
 
yes.

Thats why Jesus cried out. when the father had to seperate himself from the son. its called spiritual death

He died this death so you could live

The wage of sin is death (spiritual)

if Jesus did not suffer this death, we are still in our sin
Yes He died for our sins that’s the gospel, the atonement. If you want to learn the other side please read the link in my last post and we can discuss it and save allot of back and forth , and miscommunication, and misunderstanding.

I’m not asking you to agree with it just to read it.

Thanks
 
Yes He died for our sins that’s the gospel, the atonement. If you want to learn the other side please read the link in my last post and we can discuss it and save allot of back and forth , and miscommunication, and misunderstanding.

I’m not asking you to agree with it just to read it.

Thanks
it appears your argument is The father did not spread his wrath on Jesus.

The penalty of sin in the garden was spiritual death. God's God can not be in the presence of sin, so in his perfect person. man was separated. a barrier was introduced.

call it Gods wrath, Gods justice. whatever you want (we all have different terms we use)

But the fact is, because of sin, we are all spiritually separated from god.

If we do not get this barrier removed, we will end up being separated forever (they call this hell)

in order for our relationship to be restored. Someone who is not guilty of the sin which separates us, must suffer this wage in our place

that's why Jesus had to be God. Only God can pay for an infinite amount of sin for an infinite amount of people.

How did Jesus pay?

Sin was placed on his body. when this happened. Jesus was separated from the father and the spirit (spiritual death)

now I personally would not call this Gods wrath, I would just call this that Jesus become the substitute, He died so we could be made alive.

the penalty of sin is death, in adam all die

so in christ shall all be made alive

how? he suffered the penalty we owe (death

ie, penal substitution.
 
Sounds like a teaching by Joyce Meyer.

Just for clarity's sake, this doctrine actually goes very far back to the early church fathers and came from Word of Faith streams.

The idea is not altogether wrong, it's just the timing is mistaken.

Jesus experienced God's wrath on the Cross itself, rather than later on in the underworld.

We can clearly see this by the words of Jesus and the manifestations surrounding the Cross.
 
he who became sin for us

Jesus took our sin

now if he took and and did not suffer for it.. what good was it to take our sin

actually. the mosaic law teaches PSA

cursed is everyone who does not confirm and obey every word of this law and do them (perfection was required.. if we broke one command our punishment was to be cursed.

Jesus took that curse for us (he paid the debt we owe) as the law also said, cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree

If Jesus did not pay your sin debt, your still dead in your sin. the price of redemption was not only paid. but paid in full.
Jesus was forever sinless

1 Peter 1:19 (LEB) — 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb

Hebrews 9:14 (LEB) — 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God?

He became a sin offering


Isaiah 53:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

but was not made sin

For he hath made him to be sin for us—Τον μη γνοντα ἁμαρτιαν, ὑπερ ἡμων ἁμαρτιαν εποιησεν· He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent), a sin-offering for us. The word ἁμαρτια occurs here twice: in the first place it means sin, i.e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said, He knew no sin, i.e. was innocent; for not to know sin is the same as to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of nothing against one's self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to be unimpeachable.

In the second place, it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the ‏חטאה‎ chattaah and ‏חטאת‎ chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by ἁμαρτια in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin. Had our translators attended to their own method of translating the word in other places where it means the same as here, they would not have given this false view of a passage which has been made the foundation of a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were imputed to him, and reckoned as his own. One of these writers translates the passage thus: Deus Christum pro maximo peccatore habuit, ut nos essemus maxime justi, God accounted Christ the greatest of sinners, that we might be supremely righteous. Thus they have confounded sin with the punishment due to sin. Christ suffered in our stead; died for us; bore our sins, (the punishment due to them), in his own body upon the tree, for the Lord laid upon him the iniquities of us all; that is, the punishment due to them; explained by making his soul—his life, an offering for sin; and healing us by his stripes.
Adam Clarke's Commentary.

Even though an offering

Can you post a verse which actually states Christ paid for your sin.
 
Just for clarity's sake, this doctrine actually goes very far back to the early church fathers and came from Word of Faith streams.

The idea is not altogether wrong, it's just the timing is mistaken.

Jesus experienced God's wrath on the Cross itself, rather than later on in the underworld.

We can clearly see this by the words of Jesus and the manifestations surrounding the Cross.
No they did not teach Christ went to hell (Gehenna)

He went to sheol.
 
Just for clarity's sake, this doctrine actually goes very far back to the early church fathers and came from Word of Faith streams.

The idea is not altogether wrong, it's just the timing is mistaken.

Jesus experienced God's wrath on the Cross itself, rather than later on in the underworld.

We can clearly see this by the words of Jesus and the manifestations surrounding the Cross.
Nope never experienced anywhere at anytime or anyplace
 
So, in essence, penal substitution posits that Christ's death is a penal substitution, where he endured the punishment due to human sin, satisfying God's justice and enabling reconciliation and forgiveness?
As I understand it … that’s about right.

The hard part of the discussion is NOBODY that I know disagrees about WHAT Christ accomplished. The disagreement is over WHY he suffered it (yes, it was because of our sins … but was it a demand of God’s Justice that Christ suffer in our place or was it the means to defeat sin and death?).
 
My God My God why have you forsaken me..
Matthew 27:45-54 [ESV]
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" 47 And some of the bystanders, hearing it, said, "This man is calling Elijah." 48 And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink. 49 But the others said, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him." 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.

51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. And the earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

Psalm 22​

To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.​

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
8 “He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts.
10 On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near,
and there is none to help.
12 Many bulls encompass me;
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet—
17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But you, O LORD, do not be far off!
O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen!
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the LORD, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the LORD!
May your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the LORD,
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
28 For kingship belongs to the LORD,
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
even the one who could not keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn,
that he has done it.

There were no Chapters and Verses in the First Century, so Jesus had only one way to tell the people to “See Psalm 22 and behold the wondrous thing that God is doing right before your very eyes” … Jesus quoted the opening verse of a Psalm most Jews knew by memory. It was Jesus last lesson before his death. Most of the crowd failed to understand (even as most people still fail to understand what Jesus was saying from the cross).
 
There were no Chapters and Verses in the First Century, so Jesus had only one way to tell the people to “See Psalm 22 and behold the wondrous thing that God is doing right before your very eyes” … Jesus quoted the opening verse of a Psalm most Jews knew by memory. It was Jesus last lesson before his death. Most of the crowd failed to understand

Jesus was talking to God, not men.

This is the most elaborate work around ever.

I suppose Jesus wanted us to look up:

6 But I am a worm and not a man

But you didn't feel like bolding that one, did you, lol?
 
Jesus was talking to God, not men.

This is the most elaborate work around ever.

I suppose Jesus wanted us to look up:

6 But I am a worm and not a man

But you didn't feel like bolding that one, did you, lol?
He was proclaiming He was the Messiah
 
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