Why The Trinity is Wrong: Definition

[Wrangler]

The mortal enemies of the concept of the trinity are these 4 pillars, which have to be violated at every turn:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture

This thread will focus on definition.

1 = 1 ≠ 3 ≠ 3-in-1. Jesus is not called the Son of the Father. No offspring are their parents. If Jesus were God, there would be no need for one single verse in Scripture that juxtaposes God with Jesus but there are many. For instance, 1 COR 11:3 does not say ‘the Father’ is the head of Christ. It says God (in his entirety, in his wholeness) is the head of Christ. Such juxtapositions serve no purpose if God were Jesus. And it is worth noting that there is not one verse that juxtaposes the Father with God, like God is the head of the Father.

Converses are not synonyms. The Bible explicitly states “God the Father” and Jesus is “the Son of God.” Trinitarians pretend this is an equivalent expression to “God the Son” (jettisoning the pesky word “of”) but it is obviously not. Hunter is the son of Joe (Biden). Hunter is not the President. One thing we can know with epistemological certainty is the son of X is not X and ‘of X’ is not X; the subject of the sentence is not the same as the object of the sentence.

The easiest way to destroy the trinity is to expose the non-existent 3rd person. (No Epistle is in this person’s name – who has no name - but only of the dynamic duo, Father and Son.) A spirit that is holy is an attribute of being, not a separate being; people do not pray TO the Holy Spirit but FOR the Holy Spirit. Yet, one must admit the real passion for the trinity is the man-is-God thesis. And the most important fact of the Bible to destroy the man-is-God thesis is that Jesus died.

The penalty of sin is death – real death, fully dead, truly and completely dead – and God could not pay this price for us since he never dies, is eternal and unchanging. Fulfilling this role via substitutionary punishment is why the Messiah was prophesied. Acts 17:31 explicitly states that God raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 10:9 makes believing this a condition of salvation. This side steps the confusing subterfuge trinitarians like to leverage AS IF “the Father” is anyone other than the only true God of Scripture. Any passage that has the word God ought to be read for emphasis “God, in his unitarian nature,” especially in sentences that have both God and Jesus in it.

“The Father” did not give Jesus to the world but “God,” meaning in his singular, unitarian nature in John 3:16. NOTE: This verse does NOT say God became incarnate. It does NOT say God so loved the world that he gave himself.

Trinitarians attempt to parse synonyms, such as ‘being’ with ‘person’ and ‘begotten’ with ‘made.’ Sons are begotten, which means made (created, procreated) by their fathers and Jesus is no exception IF words have meaning (definitions apply). And if words don’t have meaning, there is also no basis to support the trinity.

 

[Fred]

Is Jesus both the High Priest and the sacrifice?

 

[Wrangler]

Is Jesus both the High Priest and the sacrifice?

Yes. What’s missing is the relationship with God. The high priest OF God and the sacrifice FOR God - IS NOT God. See what I’m getting at there?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes. What’s missing is the relationship with God. The high priest OF God and the sacrifice FOR God - IS NOT God. See what I’m getting at there?

Whom has God said.....

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

God can not speak in such terms for anyone else. Such references/privileges are reserved for Divinity.

 

[Fred]

Yes. What’s missing is the relationship with God. The high priest OF God and the sacrifice FOR God - IS NOT God. See what I’m getting at there?

No.

The High Preist and the sacrifice were never properly the same thing. Yet, Jesus is both.
Does it make so-called sense? No.

But it is to be believed.
Why?

Because the Bibel teaches it.

The same thing with Jesus being both God and the Son of God.
He is "my God" (John 20:28) and He is the Son of God (John 20:31).

 

[Wrangler]

The High Preist and the sacrifice were never properly the same thing. Yet, Jesus is both.

Agreed. But it doesn’t prove that Jesus did not like short cake.

 

[e v e]

Trinitarians attempt to parse synonyms, such as ‘being’ with ‘person’ and ‘begotten’ with ‘made.’ Sons are begotten, which means made (created, procreated) by their fathers and Jesus is no exception IF words have meaning (definitions apply). And if words don’t have meaning, there is also no basis to support the trinity.

Deity is Christ's Nature.

I would not use procreate as a term, though, it being ugly to use to refer God since referring to Animal nature. Well...and to anyone it is an ugly expression.

 

[Wrangler]

Deity is Christ's Nature.

What Scripture says that?

 

[101G]

to all,
in order to get things right and into proper prospective, one must start in the BEGINNING. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

these two words in verse 1 beginning God set the stage. what do 101G means.

A. beginning: it is the Hebrew word,
H7225 רֵאשִׁית re'shiyth (ray-sheeth') n-f.
1. the first, in place, time, order or rank.
2. (specifically) a firstfruit.
[from the same as H7218]
KJV: beginning, chief(-est), first(-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Root(s): H7218

and the ROOT of this word is
H7218 רֹאשׁ ro'sh (roshe) n-m.
the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.).
[from an unused root apparently meaning to shake]
KJV: band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first, forefront, (be-)head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.

the FIRST? yes notice the term "God" is used in CREATION, until chapter 2 where "LORD" is used when God "MADE" things

so the term "BEGINNING" dictates the term for "God" in chapter 1 and now in chapter 2 specify God in detail. because the term God in verse 1 is a plurality of, of, of, of "ONE-OWN-SELF". let's see it.

God: H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433
note definition #3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
why is this "plural?" because the definition states [plural of H433] ok, let's see what, or WHO H433 is.
H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) n-m.
אֱלֹהַּ 'eloahh (el-o'-ah) [shortened (rarely)]
1. one with supreme strength and ability.
2. the Supreme Being, God the Creator, Yahweh by name.
3. a supreme entity, a god-like creature (that is, one of God's supreme creations, or one of man's inventions).
[probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410]
KJV: God, god.
Root(s): H410

ok, God, but God, when, where, why, and who? because "beginning" states God 1. the first, in place, time, order or rank. but is not God omni-present? but in CREATION, LISTEN NO.... WHAT? God is not omni-present in his OWN CREATION. no, if he was, why is the need to appear or use the ministry of prophets, and use similitudes? because he's a Spirit. and from our point of view, it's God intrinsic spatial that is the frame of reference in relation the location of an appearance, a similitude, or the coming to a prophet with a ministry to perform or defined. supportive scripture. Hosea 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." ok, knowing that, God is First/LORD in the beginning? why, because he's the CREATOR. JUST AS H7218 רֹאשׁ ro'sh (roshe) stated above, "THE HEAD" which also indicate "FIRST". but one very IMPORTANT thing, God: H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') states, it's the [plural of H433] ........of? .......... of, what do this means. notice it's not the plural "FROM", but the plural 'OF" H433. and OF translates the genitive case of nouns. ok, who else in the beginning was "WITH" God? no one. the Lord Jesus, (per John 17:5, was WITH God). now if the Lord Jesus was "WITH" God then according to "OF" which, (translates the genitive case of nouns), he is God, for he is "OF" God meaning just wht G243 Allos states, "THE SAME SORT". and as John 1:1c states, "and was Goid". my God this is right in front of our faces. because, if he was "FROM" God then he would be a separate and distinct GOD, (not a separate person, but a separate nature, for God is a, a, a, "Spirit". this is why he is "of" God and not "From" God.

NOW knowing that, it was the LORD God who formed man. let the scripture speak, Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

now we know that it was the LORD God who Formed Man. notice "FORMED". understand Man was CREATED in the beginning but was not formed until day 3. and MANKIND was "MADE" on day 6. yes man was "CREATED" when God created the Earth, in the beginning, but was brought forth or formed until day 3. for man came out of the "EARTH". just as EVE was in the Man formed on day 3 and was not brought Forth until day 6. see, one must LEARN God Language. example ... if a Man ask God for, just for argument sake, for an Oak tree and he finds an acorn on the Ground, did God give the person what he asked for, an Oak tree? sure. because the tree is in in, in, in, the Acorn. just plant it and add water. then one will have just what one asks for. see when God speak, one need to know God LANGUAGE. as in his plurality. example Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

but one didn't realize God LANGUAGE here in the verse, for the very next verse prove this out. Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

HOLD ON FOR A SECOND, HOW DID GOD GO FROM A "US" AND "OUR" IN VERSE 26, WHICH IS A PLURALITY, TO A "HIS" AND "HE" IN VERSE 27, THE VERY NEXT VERSE, WHICH IS A SINGLE PERSON DESIGNATION?

well next time 101G will explain this concept of a PLURALITY of "ONE" person. Oh this is so Good.

next time

101G.

 

[Fred]

What a total mess.
These ransom looking posts are just edit.

 

[Wrangler]

What a total mess.
These ransom looking posts are just edit.

No, these clarifying posts edit on IDOLATRY. The false doctrine must violate at every turn:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture

A "son", by definition, is a created being. Jesus is not called the son of the father but the son of god. Son's are not their father. Ergo, Jesus is not God.

I was going to start a new thread but since @101G brought up "beginning," here is a good place to expose yet another heresy in trinitarianism. The "beginning" in John is not the "beginning" in Genesis. I already put a vid that explains this and can do so again Fred, if you believe it will help.

In short, every Gospel testifies to two things: Jesus is the Son of God and Jesus' ministry. Other Gospels begin with his geneology. Others with the story of the his birth. John's Gospel also begins with Jesus' ministry.

In the beginning (of Jesus' ministry) was the Word (of God who put the Word in one of the people he chose in fulfillment of Deut 18:15-18. That is, Jesus ), and the Word was with God (sense 1), and the Word was a god (sense3, meaning has authority).​

Let's go over the definition of god again. From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/god

god​

1 of 2

noun​

ˈgäd

also ˈgȯd​

​

pluralgods​

Synonyms of god​

1​

God : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as​

a
: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universe
Throughout the patristic and medieval periods, Christian theologians taught that God created the universe …—Jame Schaefer

​

… the Supreme Being or God, the personal form of the Ultimate Reality, is conceived by Hindus as having various aspects.—Sunita Pant Bansal

​

b

Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind​

​

2​

or less commonly God : a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powers
specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
Greek gods of love and war

​

​

3​

: a person or thing of supreme value
had photos of baseball's gods pinned to his bedroom wall

​

​

4​

: a powerful ruler​

That's all John was trying to say in his Prologue - Jesus has the thing of supreme value (god, aka god's word)) put in his mouth by the Creator of the Universe. We know this because John explicitly tells us the purpose he wrote his Gospel @ 20:31 was to prove something other than Jesus was God; namely, that Jesus is the son of God. So, trinitarians go against John's stated purpose for writing his Gospel.

Of course, words are not a Being or person. And of course trinitarians lose their mind at the thought that a word is not a Being or person. And the simple reason for that is there is no trinitarian verse in all of Scripture. So, they must emotionally invest in eisegesis and nowhere is this more powerfully displayed than John 1:1

There are many lords and gods in Scripture. And changing senses of these words is too much to expect from our trinitarian friends. Yet, there it is in Scripture as plain as day.

For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—​

1 Corinthians 8:5 (ESV)

By the time John wrote his Gospel, the unitarian nature of God had been established for over 1,000 years in 1,000's of verses of Scripture. His intention was not to replace the monotheist God of Judaism with his opening sentence - poetic though it may be. He poetically uses "god" in more than one sense of the definition and trinitarians cannot handle the truth of the monotheist text of Scripture.

Definition. Definition will guide your way - if you let reason and not IDOLATRY rule your theological inquiry.

 

[Fred]

A "son", by definition, is a created being.

A "father" by definition is a created being.

Thanks for making this so easy for me.


I didn't bother to read any more of your longwinded nonsense.

 

[101G]

What a total mess.
These ransom looking posts are just vomit.

personal opinion? 101G careless for personal opinion... garbage can... smile).

101G.

 

[Fred]

personal opinion? 101G careless for personal opinion... garbage can... smile).

101G.

Your careless in how you communicate.

 

[101G]

That's all John was trying to say in his Prologue - Jesus has the thing of supreme value (god, aka god's word)) put in his mouth by the Creator of the Universe.

First ERROR of the day. and here's why. John is saying that JESUS is GOD, the CREATOR, but not as the Son of God, but as the Son of Man. this is confirmed in Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," Hebrews 1:2 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

understand, in time past, God spoke to us by prophets, and in appearances, but not directly. well now at John 1:1 and confirmed here in Hebrews God is speaking directly face to face to us. how do 101G know this. by what's said in in verses 2 and 3. it states, ""Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" question, who is God Son? let verse 3 tells us. "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person" the term Express means "EXACT" or the same one person, this is where our brother @synergy makes the MISTAKES of a MIRROW IMAGE. no, but actually God himself 'EQUALLY SHARED" in the ECHAD, as Ordinal First, and Ordinal Last. here in Flesh, God is personified. fulfilling Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

God's/his OWN ARM IS HIM. not someone's else ARM, no, HIS "OWN", "OWN", "OWN", ARM, which shows possession, now manifested in flesh.... this is why the Lord Jesus says, "My", "My", "My", Father...... my shows possession. when the Lord Jesus was in flesh on Earth in the ECHAD of First and Last, says, MY FATHER WHICH ART IN HEAVEN, He is saying MY SPIRIT WHICH IS IN HEAVEN. and in Heaven JESUS as the Ordinal First/Spirit say MY SON ON EARTH, is saying MY BODY which is on Earth.

see, when he said in Hebrews, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets," he, God, the Spirit, without a body, used what Hosea said, 12:10 "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets."

Melchisedec, king of Salem was a similitude in Jerusalem...... (smile). now in MANIFESTATION. God, as Ordinal Last, the Son is speaking to us NOW. GOD IN FLESH PERSONIFIED.

one need to LEARN, and UNDERSTAND the Hebrew TERM, "ECHAD". and then will the bible become clear as a Bell to you.

101G.

 

[101G]

A "father" by definition is a created being.

is that according to flesh or the Spirit..... (smile)....

101G.

 

[synergy]

1 = 1 ≠ 3 ≠ 3-in-1.

Wonderful, you can do basic addition and subtraction. Once you progress to Algebra then units need to be considered.
For example, does 1 apple + 1 orange = 2 apples? No, units need to be considered.

Trinitarianism says the following:
1 Person + 1 Person + 1 Person = 3 Persons.
1 Divine Nature = 1 Divine Nature (i.e.: there is only 1 Divine Nature).
Notice how I add items of the same units.

So, that's today's Algebra class for today.

 

[Wrangler]

A "father" by definition is a created being.

What dictionary are you using? See (2)b(1). Father = God Frrom https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/father

father
1 of 2
noun
fa·ther ˈfä-t͟hər
pluralfathers
Synonyms of father
1
a
(1)
: a male parent
(2)
: a man who has begotten a child
also : a male animal who has sired an offspring
b capitalized
(1)
: GOD sense 1
(2)
: the first person of the Trinity (see TRINITY sense 1)
2
: FOREFATHER
the founding fathers
3
a
: one related to another in a way suggesting that of father to child
b
: an old man —used as a respectful form of address
4
often capitalized : a pre-Scholastic (see SCHOLASTIC sense 1a) Christian writer accepted by the church as an authoritative witness to its teaching and practice
called also church father

5
a
: one that originates or institutes
the father of modern science
b
: SOURCE
… the sun, the father of warmth and light.
—Lena M. Whitney
c
: PROTOTYPE
the father of all libraries in the country
6
: a priest of the regular clergy
broadly : PRIEST —used especially as a title
7
: one of the leading men (as of a city) —usually used in plural

 

[Wrangler]

First ERROR of the day. and here's why. John is saying that JESUS is GOD, the CREATOR, but not as the Son of God, but as the Son of Man.

I reject mystical dualism. Jesus is not God, the Creator of the Universe, in any way or sense.

 

[101G]

To all, GINOLJC.
now to the ONE person God in Genesis 1:26. pick up from post #9

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

many say this proves the trinity. ..... no.... it do not. many say, it's the Father going through the Son to make "ALL THINGS". well NO again. let's see if the scriptures states that. A. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;" so the LORD made all things.... right, but John 1:3 states the Word, "He MADE ALL THINGS". 101G is about to show you how to UNDERSTAND God when he speaks. many just blow off Isaiah 44:24, because in their minds, they are programmed to overlook terms as "Alone", and "By myself" when it comes to God in creation. well, what if the Lord Jesus say He, God, the Father was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF", that would get the believers attention .... Right. well, the bible teaches such. only "ONE" Person made man Male and Female.... let's see it. REMEMBER the Lord Jesus cannot LIE ... Right.. Right... (smile). LISTEN and LEARN.

in the book of Matthews chapter19, "the Pharisees question our Lord concerning divorcement", and his respond, we have a GREAT REVELATION. let's pick up the action at Matthew 19:3 "The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?" Matthew 19:4 "And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female," Matthew 19:5 "And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?"
did all hear the Lord Jesus? " Have ye not read, that he" a SINGLE person made man male and female. so who is he here? answer "God", well how do you know this 101G, answer by Marks Gospel who recorded the same event, listen. Mark 10:6 "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female." so the "he" in Matthew 19"4 is now confirmed as "GOD". and note God is a HE, a single person, that made man MALE and FEMALE. remember these are the words of the Lord Jesus who cannot lie. also he said it is WRITTEN. well pray by God where is it WRITTEN AT. (smile), Genesis 1:27, (RIGHT AFTER VERSE 26, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

so A. God in the BEGINNING is a he, when he, MADE ALL THING, (ONE PERSON). just as Isaiah 44:24 stated... "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF". the Lord Jesus ... who cannot LIE just confirmed Isaiah 44:24 as God, (ONE PERSON), is Alone and by himself. and since that is true, that confirms what John said in 1:1c, "and the Word was God." which confirms what 101G said about term "WITH" in John 1:1b, "and the Word was with God". meaning that "WITH" God is "ALSO" God as Isaiah 48:12 states, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." which also confirm John 1:1c. which is correct that JESUS IS THE ONLY PERSON IN THE GODHEAD.

but hold on 101G, did not the Lord Jesus say "he" God made man male and female? so that would exclude him, (the Son of God) then. well let's see... LISTEN TO HOW 101G IS SPEAKING. the Son of God, MADE NOTHING, .... but JESUS MADE ALL THINGS... (smile)... did one get it? let 101G say it again, 'the Son of God MADE NOTHING, but JESUS DID". the Son of God is flesh, bone and blood, the LAMB "OF", "OF", OF", God, was not in the beginning, but JESUS was. (Spirit) .. Uh O!... especially according to John 17:5... Oh this is to easy not to understand. flesh and blood CREATED, and MADE NOTHING, in the beginning..... let 101G say it again. flesh and blood CREATED, and MADE NOTHING, in the beginning, but the Spirit did. ... are the Light bulbs coming on now?

if they, your light bulbs, are NOT coming on just stay tune. 101G suggest one re-read this post for edification, and clarification.

NOW CRUNCH TIME. since we now know that GOD is a single person in the beginning, why then did he, GOD, JESUS, say US and OUR in verse 26, and in the very next verse say, "his" and "he?"

next time we will learn why... until next time.

101G.