Who was the Book of John Addressed to?
- Thread starter dwight92070
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GodsGrace
Well-known member
Good morning J
It would be nice to have a good conversation without descending to insults.....but some do this.
I've looked into the allegory of the olive tree and you do have a good point.
The reason you've stated above is reasonable, but you haven't delved into why the gentiles are called a WILD OLIVE in Matthew 11.
I've found some good articles on the net that will reply to this.
This is regarding why Paul called the Gentiles a wild olive (tree):
Being a wild olive-tree - From this passage it would seem that the olive-tree was sometimes cultivated, and that cultivation was necessary in order to render it fruitful. The cultivated olive-tree is "of the a moderate height, its trunk knotty, its bark smooth and ash-colored, its wood is solid and yellowish, the leaves are oblong, and almost like those of the willow, of a green color, etc. The wild olive is smaller in all its parts." (Calmet.)
The wild olive was unfruitful, or its fruit very imperfect and useless. The ancient writers explain this word by "unfruitful, barren." (Sehleusner.) This was used, therefore, as the emblem of unfruitfulness and barrenness, while the cultivated olive produced much fruit. The meaning here is, that the Gentiles had been like the wild olive, unfruitful in holiness; that they had been uncultivated by the institutions of the true religion, and consequently had grown up in the wildness and sin of nature. The Jews had been like a cultivated olive, long under the training and blessing of God.
source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/11-17.htm
Every Christian knows the above....
But I found the following article which you might find interesting:
I don't have an opinion either way because I haven't studied this too much...
Now, what does this biblical theology have to do with Romans 11:17–24?
To put it as simply as I can, I believe that it demonstrates clearly that Jesus is the Olive Tree in Paul’s metaphor, along with His body.
Jesus is the true Olive Tree (King) of Israel. He is the Greater David who was made a tree at His crucifixion. He is the tree of life that has rivers flowing from His side that bore His fruit in His season. He is the vine in whom His disciples abide. He is the one that produces fruit within us all. He is the first-fruit from the dead. It’s clear that all of this language is used to describe Him in Scripture.
So, with this in mind, here’s what I believe Paul is saying in Romans 11:17–24.
I believe he’s basically saying the same thing that Jesus said in John 15:1–8, and even expanding upon it.
There, Jesus told His disciples that He was the True Vine, and they were the branches. Those that abided in Him would produce fruit. The Father, who is the vinedresser, would prune them. They would become even more fruitful as a result. And, those who did not bear fruit in him would be broken off and cast into the fire.
source: https://medium.com/@joshrobinson_22...he-olive-tree-of-romans-11-17-24-bf4d0fbd6a7b
Are you saying that God made NO COVENANT WITH GENTILES...
OR
That gentiles are not included in any Covenant??
I would agree with the first
but disagree with the second.
I just came across of this.
Isn't that the same reasoning as some / all Calvinist do, instead adding [OF JEWS] adding [OF THE ELECT] ?
Wow....
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The promise to build His Church [Greek: "ekklesia" = "called out [ones].") A direct reference to Israel as a "Great Congregation" in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle and beyond. Israel, as was with baby Jesus, were called out of Egypt.
65 And at that time Solomon held a feast, and all Israel with him, a great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt, before the LORD our God, seven days and seven days, even fourteen days.
1 Ki 8:65.
1 Furthermore David the king said unto all the congregation, Solomon my son, whom alone God hath chosen, is yet young and tender, and the work is great: for the palace is not for man, but for the LORD God.
1 Ch 29:1.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation:
I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psalm 22:25.
And on the day of the Jewish Feast of Harvest Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL BY JOEL began that building of His Church by delivering from sin three thousand Jews.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:41.
IF Israel was cast off as a nation why did Jesus begin the spiritual building of the natural Olive tree Israel with the saving of three thousand Jews? That is a very large number of maybe a million of attendees at this Jewish Feast circa AD 32. But there's more to become saved:
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 2:47.
The Jews having favor with God and the people. And the Lord added thousands to His Church, that Great Congregation of Jews, daily "such as should be saved." Imagine that. A nation you claim is "cast off" [and ended] comes roaring back with the personal salvation of thousands of Jews daily into the foundation of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Seems to me Jesus Christ is not casting off but BUILDING a Church of "called out [ones]."
Thousands and thousands daily were being born-again, filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise and having favor with all the Jewish people as they began to see these events as fulfillment of Joel's prophecy of God giving His Spirit - which is necessary to salvation - to the Jews.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward,
That I will pour out my spirit upon all [Hebrew] flesh;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids
In those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
Blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,
Before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
For in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
As the LORD hath said,
And in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
Joel 2:27–32.
It doesn't say "In Gentiles" or "among Gentiles" there will be salvation. It says "IN MOUNT ZION AND IN JERUSALEM" - possessions of the Jewish people, owners of the Promised Land that sees the salvation of the Lord.
Everyday going forward thousands and thousands of Jews being born-again in fulfillment of dozens of prophecies to Israel by God were being born-again and being filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise. And to whom was God's Spirit promised to?
To the Jewish people.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:38–40.
I don't see the "casting off" of the Jewish people, but the building and re-building of this great congregation of people. Every day since the Feast of Harvest Jesus Christ is giving the Jewish people His Spirit and is building back up this great congregation of people. Don't you see this? Or, does Scripture hold nothing towards what you are to believe as the truth of God. Can you continue to say and believe the false teaching you claim of God "cast off" this nation of people?
Tell me.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Where in this passage of bringing up Israel as an Olive tree the mentioning of Gentiles?
There is none. If you think adding to the bible things not there, I should do the same.
But I don't. I don't add to the bible concepts and ideas when the text doesn't make such mentioning.
There is nothing in the Old Testament God saying Gentiles are an Olive tree nor a wild Olive tree.
None at all.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Already responded. There is nothing in the text of Romans 11:14-17 Gentiles are an Olive tree.
There is nothing in the Old Testament Gentiles are called an Olive tree by God or any of His prophets.
None at all.
@GodsGrace @ProDeo @jeremiah1five
please come here and discuss: https://berean-apologetics.communit...of-abraham-heirs-of-the-promises-of-god.2412/
please come here and discuss: https://berean-apologetics.communit...of-abraham-heirs-of-the-promises-of-god.2412/
Who are the Seed of Abraham, heirs of the promises of God?
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Show me in the Old Testament God making a salvation covenant with Gentiles.
Specifically, show me where the Abraham Covenant is described in the OT Gentiles being mentioned or included in this covenant.
Show me in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, or Deuteronomy God including Gentiles in the Mosaic Covenant which is an extension of the Abraham Covenant.
Show me in Jeremiah 31:31-34 where Jeremiah prophesied of a New Covenant with the House of Israel and Judah Gentiles are mentioned or included.
It's as simple as that.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
I am merely staying in context. And the context is that Jesus was Promised to Israel and to Israel He came. He taught Jews the Law as rabbi. Specifically, He taught the Jews the "spirit" of the Law, something they void of the Spirit could not understand being spiritual but of the flesh.
Jesus is that prophet like unto Moses. God described this prophet to come from among the Jews ("of thy brethren".)
John declares the lamb OF GOD being made manifest (appearing) to Israel:
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
John 1:31.
The angel said Jesus would save "His people" from their sins. His people that Moses said would be born from among "thy people" is born from the tribe of Judah which are "His people" He came to save.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matt. 1:21.
He came unto His own, remember? He did not come unto the Gentiles. As a rabbi He would never attempt to teach Gentiles the Law of Moses. Why should He? The Law was given to the children of Israel and it is a representation of the Person and Work of Israel's Messiah. There is nothing in the OT or in the NT Jesus is a Gentile Messiah. The whole context of Scripture is from God to Israel. It's His love letter to the Hebrew people.
Israel is His Church, His Bride, His people, His, His, His. Israel is the apple of God's eye. Are Gentiles the apple of His eye? Where does it say that in Scripture? If it doesn't say It then I can't say it. Who flocked to hear Him teach? The Jewish people did. He spoke Hebrew and Aramaic. Do Gentiles know Hebrew and Aramaic? No, they know Latin.
All one has to do is show me in the Old Testament God making salvation covenant with Gentiles as He did with Abraham and his seed.
That's all one needs to do to say Gentiles are included in the three Hebrew covenants.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
RB....
WE are the seeds..,.
Jesus could be said to be the seed.
I posted to @jeremiah1five a very good post with information he could have used ....
but, I see from his post to me no. 368, that he's a rather ornery fellow.
I don't do well with ornery folk.
However, I will check out the linked thread if YOU started it.
Otherwise I won't go thru it....I just don't have the time.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
I don't think you really read replies Jeremiah.
So that's that.
I asked you an important question to which you did not reply because you're too busy
being right and being ornery.
So I cannot reply to the above.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Nope. I am not ornery.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
The Abraham Covenant is located in Genesis 12, 15, and 17.
Nowhere are non-Hebrew Gentiles mentioned or included in this covenant.
Hi @jeremiah1five
We haven't talked before and I don't know what your beliefs are, I just want to understand what you posted previously -
16 For God so loved the world [OF JEWS], that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
You added the words [OF JEWS] and I wonder what you mean with that, if a Gentile (like me) is excluded from John 3:16-17 and is destined to perish by definition, has no right on everlasting life.
I think it's good you clarify this before moving into the subject of the 3 Hebrew covenants.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
I added "[OF JEWS]" to clarify Jesus is addressing Jews in John 3:16-17 as ALL writers of the New Covenant writings are writing to Jews and Jewish Christians. The whole of the bible is addressed to Jews and Jewish Christians post-cross.
The Law, Psalms, and Prophets are the whole of the Hebrew Scripture, and they are the history of the Hebrew people, their wars, culture, religion, etc., of the Hebrew people. The gospels and the letters and the prophecy of John (Revelation) are written to and for the Jewish people.
Many interpret "world" as meaning Gentiles but that does damage to the Scripture. The context of Jesus' words in John 3:16-17 were spoken to Nicodemus, a Jew, and that the Greek word translated "world" merely means in the context it is being used to refer to is exactly that: those to whom Jesus is addressing - Jews.
I also hold that God dispersed and scattered His people among Gentiles and there were mixed marriages, rapes by the conquering armies, concubinage and even slavery that mixed heritage Hebrews were born into the world and that they are still Abraham's seed no matter the dilution of DNA/blood. Thus, since God made covenant also with Abraham's seed that those who presume themselves as Gentile and are truly born-again of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Jews) that there must be a Hebrew parent somewhere in their ancestry because God made promise to Abraham's seed (no matter if mixed heritage) and that is the real reason why "Gentiles" are being saved.
And there's more I can add as to my foundation to what I hold.
The bottom line is this: Every presumed 'gentile" that claims to be born-again of the Spirit are not non-Hebrew Gentile but that because of the historical scatterings of God's people among the Gentiles that there must be at least one Hebrew parent in a presumed "Gentile's" ancestry because of God's promise to Abraham and his seed.
But I find no covenant between God and non-Hebrew Gentiles in Scripture. So, who are these "Gentiles" in the New Testament being born-again even to this day.
How far can you trace your family ancestry? I've asked the question on two sites and no one can go back past at least the 1700s - one claimed the 1500s. I also believe that Hebrew tribes came to America which is why this countries' founding and history has similarities to the Hebrew people. I don't make my claims lightly. All I have asked is for someone to prove through Scripture rightly divided and understood where in Scripture God made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles and no one can provide the proof. So, who are these "Gentiles" in the NT but mixed heritage Hebrews of Jew-Gentile descent.
That's the only reasonable answer.
