Who is the creator

[Jim]

I wonder if part of the difficulty here is that we may be blending categories that Scripture does not explicitly equate.

It certainly seems clear that no one ... Old Testament or New ....has ever believed apart from the work of the Spirit. Abraham believed God (Genesis 15:6), and genuine faith surely required spiritual life.

At the same time, Jesus says in John 14:17 that the Spirit was “with” the disciples but would later be “in” them. That suggests some kind of shift connected to the New Covenant and Pentecost.

So perhaps we need to distinguish between:
The Spirit giving life (regeneration), And the New Covenant, permanent indwelling/sealing ministry described after Christ’s glorification (Ephesians 1:13).

Those may be closely related, but Scripture does not explicitly say they functioned identically in every era.

David’s prayer in Psalm 51:11 (“take not Your Holy Spirit from me”) also suggests that the Spirit’s presence under the Old Covenant was not described in quite the same permanent sealing language we see later.

And regarding the order of salvation, I think we should also be careful not to state more than Scripture states. The Bible never explicitly says, “The Spirit regenerates someone months or years before they believe.” That is a theological construction, not a direct verse. While many hold that regeneration logically precedes faith, the text itself consistently presents faith and reception of the Spirit in very close connection (for example, Ephesians 1:13).

So rather than assuming Calvinism demands one conclusion, or that OT believers had no regenerative work of the Spirit, it might be more accurate to say....The Spirit has always been the source of spiritual life, but the covenantal indwelling ministry appears to reach its fullness at Pentecost.

That seems to preserve both continuity and development in redemptive history.

There is a distinct difference between the indwelling Holy Spirit and the empowering Holy Spirit. The empowering Holy Spirit, providing the ability to work signs, wonders, and miracles, was clearly imparted on selective occasions in both the OT and the NT. And while it seems that there were selective occasions of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the OT such as that which you sited relative to King David, there is no indication that it was either permanent or universal in believers in the OT. It is only in the NT post-Pentecost when indwelling became a permanent work of the Holy Spirit universally in the believers.

I would add here that even with the occasional and selective indwelling in the OT, there is no suggestion ever of regeneration prior to Pentecost.

 

[FreeInChrist]

There is a distinct difference between the indwelling Holy Spirit and the empowering Holy Spirit. The empowering Holy Spirit, providing the ability to work signs, wonders, and miracles, was clearly imparted on selective occasions in both the OT and the NT. And while it seems that there were selective occasions of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the OT such as that which you sited relative to King David, there is no indication that it was either permanent or universal in believers in the OT. It is only in the NT post-Pentecost when indwelling became a permanent work of the Holy Spirit universally in the believers.

I would add here that even with the occasional and selective indwelling in the OT, there is no suggestion ever of regeneration prior to Pentecost.

I agree that Pentecost marks something new in terms of permanence and universality of indwelling.
But I don’t see Scripture saying that regeneration began at Pentecost.
If OT saints exercised genuine saving faith, wouldn’t that require the Spirit’s life-giving work?
Jesus seems to expect Nicodemus to already understand the concept of new birth from the OT.
So perhaps Pentecost marks a change in extent and permanence ~ not the first occurrence of regeneration.

 

[Jim]

I agree that Pentecost marks something new in terms of permanence and universality of indwelling.
But I don’t see Scripture saying that regeneration began at Pentecost.
If OT saints exercised genuine saving faith, wouldn’t that require the Spirit’s life-giving work?
Jesus seems to expect Nicodemus to already understand the concept of new birth from the OT.
So perhaps Pentecost marks a change in extent and permanence ~ not the first occurrence of regeneration.

Regeneration is spoken of by God in such passages as Ezekiel 11:14-25; 36:22-38 and Jermiah 31:31-40; however, it is given as a promise not as something that existed already. I believe as such that promise was initiated at Pentecost. Nicodemus certainly should have been aware of that promise of God.

 

[Keiw1]

Correct! And he expresses it in his Word, with which I agree and seek to propagate!

And the only thing that I agree with them in general is the Trinity.

Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what the shape of killing device was, but that Jesus shed his blood and died on it! But historically the Roman cross had a cross beam on the upright stake that would look either like a T or a lower case t.

Doug

Stauros-upright pole, stake, cross. It could have been anyone of them, there is 0 proof of which one. Catholicism put cross, Catholicism put many errors in translation to fit false council teachings. Its undeniable fact in 325 ce at the council of Nicea, Jesus was added to a 2 headed godhead, then in 381 ce at the council of Constantinople the holy spirit was added to a trinity for the very first time=recorded history facts. It does not exist. You are being mislead in altered bible versions=100% fact-you best relook.

 

[Keiw1]

So, what do you think "and afterwards" means? Goliath was a "giant." And a Rephaim. Do you know about Rephaims?

Who were the sons of God that created the Nephilim? Angels. Are there no more angels? Is Satan already chained in hell? I don't know who you are listening to, but it doesn't seem you can think for yourself, or even the Spirit.

No where in Gods bible does it say Goliath was a Nephlim--men who live in darkness twist things.

 

[Keiw1]

No one is in heaven yet. Their spirits are with God but never heard their spirits look down on anything.

Until you get your new glorified body you will not be in heaven either.

Yes, all are in the grave, none are in a place of eternal suffering as well, that doesn't even exist. But in the false religions scenario of Lazarus and the rich man, eternal suffering exists and one in heaven is shown to be looking down, thus my post is correct, that one would not have joy to see all that suffering in such a place. It was symbolic.

 

[charismaticlady]

No where in Gods bible does it say Goliath was a Nephlim--men who live in darkness twist things.

You really need to have things spelled out for you don't you? The Rephaim are Nephilim. Goliath was Rephaim, therefore, Goliath was Nephilim. Do you still not understand?

 

[Keiw1]

You really need to have things spelled out for you don't you? The Rephaim are Nephilim. Goliath was Rephaim, therefore, Goliath was Nephilim. Do you still not understand?

Every Nephlim was wiped out in the flood. Does the bible say the Rephaim were Nephlim? If not, Its just words of darkness that not 1 on Earth can prove.

 

[TibiasDad]

But in the false religions scenario of Lazarus and the rich man, eternal suffering exists and one in heaven

The Rich Man and Lazarus

Luke 16:19“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

1) What specifically is “false” about this? Are these not Jesus’s words?

2) Where does anyone “look down” to Earth from eternity’s vantage point. What specifically says that they are observing what is happening on the Earth when they were conversing?

3) Does not Jesus warn of Hell where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? (Matt 13:42)

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

Every Nephlim was wiped out in the flood. Does the bible say the Rephaim were Nephlim? If not, Its just words of darkness that not 1 on Earth can prove.

4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them.

After what? The flood. When were there giants in the land after the flood? Goliath and his 4 brothers, the reason David picked up 5 stones. That is why scholars have linked the Rephaim to the Nephilim. Different names, but similar people.

 

[Keiw1]

The Rich Man and Lazarus

Luke 16:19“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

1) What specifically is “false” about this? Are these not Jesus’s words?

2) Where does anyone “look down” to Earth from eternity’s vantage point. What specifically says that they are observing what is happening on the Earth when they were conversing?

3) Does not Jesus warn of Hell where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? (Matt 13:42)

Doug

Gods justice scales makes eternal suffering symbolism. His justice scales are in PERFECT balance. He taught all that perfect balance= An eye for an eye. Thus for 70-100 years of an unrepented life, God could not or would not condemn one made of dust to trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of suffering in an eternal place. That is an eye for a gazillion eyes-thus not the true Gods justice.
The symbolism= As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those not allowed in miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, likened to be an eternal suffering.
God set before all-Deut 30:19= LIFE or DEATH--Actions speak louder than words for a choice by each individual.

 

[Keiw1]

4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them.

After what? The flood. When were there giants in the land after the flood? Goliath and his 4 brothers, the reason David picked up 5 stones. That is why scholars have linked the Rephaim to the Nephilim. Different names, but similar people.

No where does it call then Nephlim in Gods bible.

 

[TibiasDad]

Gods justice scales makes eternal suffering symbolism.

We need not fear a symbolic danger. Why would Jesus warn us about something that doesn’t really exist? And are not symbols a lesser representation of the reality it stands for? If the fires and agony are mere symbols, is not the reality far worse?

His justice scales are in PERFECT balance. He taught all that perfect balance= An eye for an eye.

Jesus displaces this thinking:

Matt 5:38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Thus for 70-100 years of an unrepented life, God could not or would not condemn one made of dust to trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of suffering in an eternal place. That is an eye for a gazillion eyes-thus not the true Gods justice.

Sin is of an infinitely greater magnitude to God. It is not about how long we have sinned, but of how offended God is by each sin; he is infinitely offended as he is infinite in his being and character.

The symbolism= As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those not allowed in miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, likened to be an eternal suffering.
God set before all-Deut 30:19= LIFE or DEATH--Actions speak louder than words for a choice by each individual.

Death is separation: of soul and body and of soul from God. In eternity separation is a permanent thing. Existence is permanent and existence separated from God is permanent.

I say this in all sincerity and love, you are believing a lie wrapped in deception and soaked in a canard.


Doug

 

[Keiw1]

We need not fear a symbolic danger. Why would Jesus warn us about something that doesn’t really exist? And are not symbols a lesser representation of the reality it stands for? If the fires and agony are mere symbols, is not the reality far worse?





Jesus displaces this thinking:

Matt 5:38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.




Sin is of an infinitely greater magnitude to God. It is not about how long we have sinned, but of how offended God is by each sin; he is infinitely offended as he is infinite in his being and character.






Death is separation: of soul and body and of soul from God. In eternity separation is a permanent thing. Existence is permanent and existence separated from God is permanent.

I say this in all sincerity and love, you are believing a lie wrapped in deception and soaked in a canard.

We need not fear a symbolic danger. Why would Jesus warn us about something that doesn’t really exist? And are not symbols a lesser representation of the reality it stands for? If the fires and agony are mere symbols, is not the reality far worse?





Jesus displaces this thinking:

Matt 5:38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.




Sin is of an infinitely greater magnitude to God. It is not about how long we have sinned, but of how offended God is by each sin; he is infinitely offended as he is infinite in his being and character.






Death is separation: of soul and body and of soul from God. In eternity separation is a permanent thing. Existence is permanent and existence separated from God is permanent.

I say this in all sincerity and love, you are believing a lie wrapped in deception and soaked in a canard.


Doug

Jesus was showing that an eye for an eye meant-justice will prevail even if it had to be God rendering that justice.
Meet the true God-Deut 30:19--He set before all-life or death. There is no life in death. Jesus was clear-all who walk the broad and spacious path will be destroyed= not given eternal life to suffer. Your god is a sadist, none would serve him if eternal suffering was justice.

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus was showing that an eye for an eye meant-justice will prevail even if it had to be God rendering that justice.
Meet the true God-Deut 30:19--He set before all-life or death. There is no life in death. Jesus was clear-all who walk the broad and spacious path will be destroyed= not given eternal life to suffer. Your god is a sadist, none would serve him if eternal suffering was justice.

Destruction =

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being(Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11)

The wicked lose the all things that can possibly make life pleasurable and enjoyable, not the loss of existence.

Doug

 

[Keiw1]

Destruction =

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being(Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11)

The wicked lose the all things that can possibly make life pleasurable and enjoyable, not the loss of existence.

Doug

Only a sadist, like satan would create an eternal suffering. I just showed you Deut 30:19--God didn't lie. the twisting's of men that lead into darkness are the liars because they refuse to believe God and know the difference from symbolism and reality.

 

[TibiasDad]

Only a sadist, like satan would create an eternal suffering. I just showed you Deut 30:19--God didn't lie. the twisting's of men that lead into darkness are the liars because they refuse to believe God and know the difference from symbolism and reality.

Choosing between life and death is to choose to be on God’s side (life)-which means following his ways and commands- or choosing to be against God’s side!

Spiritual death is to be separated from God forever; not to cease to exist by annihilation. apṓleia does not mean annihilation!

God is Sovereign and can do whatever he pleases with his enemies! Who are we to tell God what he can or cannot do with those who are against him. Did he not order Israel to totally destroy and kill all the peoples in Ai, including women and children? (See Josh 8:24-27)

Doug