Who is the creator

[charismaticlady]

That is impossible. ALL on Earth died in the flood except Noah and his 3 sons and daughter in laws. The rest were wicked in Gods view.

So, what do you think "and afterwards" means? Goliath was a "giant." And a Rephaim. Do you know about Rephaims?

Who were the sons of God that created the Nephilim? Angels. Are there no more angels? Is Satan already chained in hell? I don't know who you are listening to, but it doesn't seem you can think for yourself, or even the Spirit.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I did deal with it. Your darkness will not listen-If one in heaven can actually look down and see family members suffering like that, that one would have no joy.

No one is in heaven yet. Their spirits are with God but never heard their spirits look down on anything.

Until you get your new glorified body you will not be in heaven either.

 

[FreeInChrist]

So, what do you think "and afterwards" means? Goliath was a "giant." And a Rephaim. Do you know about Rephaims?

Who were the sons of God that created the Nephilim? Angels. Are there no more angels? Is Satan already chained in hell? I don't know who you are listening to, but it doesn't seem you can think for yourself, or even the Spirit.

Might make one heck of a mini-series or prime time drama with all these variables.

 

[TibiasDad]

Yes, absolutely, we are born in a right relationship with God.

99.9% of orthodox Christian theology would call that heresy. It defies all scripture, logic, and observation. It is also a moot point given that everyone born of Adam sins! You have no answer for that, but I do! Why does everyone born of Adam sin? Because it is their nature to do so from birth!

I do not wish to be contrary for the sake of contrariness, and I do not cast doubt on your faith in Christ, nor on others whom I believe think as you do, and with whom I have been friends on here for many years. I believe you are in error. My conscience is clear as to my trying to persuade you. I entrust you to the Holy Spirit’s leading.


Doug

 

[Jim]

99.9% of orthodox Christian theology would call that heresy. It defies all scripture, logic, and observation. It is also a moot point given that everyone born of Adam sins! You have no answer for that, but I do! Why does everyone born of Adam sin? Because it is their nature to do so from birth!

I do not wish to be contrary for the sake of contrariness, and I do not cast doubt on your faith in Christ, nor on others whom I believe think as you do, and with whom I have been friends on here for many years. I believe you are in error. My conscience is clear as to my trying to persuade you. I entrust you to the Holy Spirit’s leading.


Doug

So you truly believe the spirit God gives you is dead when He gives it. Talk about heresy!!

 

[charismaticlady]

Do you just make statements with no proof and we are just suppose to take your word for it?

Funny, but telling. You're a teenager aren't you? I do use scripture, you play games.

 

[TibiasDad]

So you truly believe the spirit God gives you is dead when He gives it. Talk about heresy!!

When did I ever say such a thing?


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

So you truly believe the spirit God gives you is dead when He gives it. Talk about heresy!!

I believe that mankind is out of relationship with our creator as a natural consequence of Adam’s actions. The entirety of our race was cursed that day, and the fracture of the relationship is a perpetual injury for every subsequent member of his race.

Doug

 

[Jim]

When did I ever say such a thing?


Doug

That is what the doctrine of Original Sin is all about.

I believe that mankind is out of relationship with our creator as a natural consequence of Adam’s actions. The entirety of our race was cursed that day, and the fracture of the relationship is a perpetual injury for every subsequent member of his race.

Doug

The teaching that mankind is out of relationship with God as a result of Adam's disobedience is the doctrine of Original Sin. It is heresy. We are not dead in Adam's sin. We become dead in our own trespasses and sins. Adam's sin had no direct effect on the rest of humanity.

 

[Jim]

Funny, but telling. You're a teenager aren't you? I do use scripture, you play games.

Yeah, you do use scripture. Just not every well.

And yep, I am an 87 year-old teenager, or I will be in another month if I make it that long.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I believe that mankind is out of relationship with our creator as a natural consequence of Adam’s actions. The entirety of our race was cursed that day, and the fracture of the relationship is a perpetual injury for every subsequent member of his race.

Doug

Do you disagree that God gave us our spirits when we were born, and it is the way we communicate with Him, especially once we have the Holy Spirit?

 

[TibiasDad]

That is what the doctrine of Original Sin is all about.

The teaching that mankind is out of relationship with God as a result of Adam's disobedience is the doctrine of Original Sin.

Correct!

It is heresy.

It has been the continual teaching of the church since its inception. So by definition it is the orthodox teaching by which heresy is judged.

We are not dead in Adam's sin.

We are born with a proclivity for sin…we are not like Adam was; he was created in harmony with God and chose to break that harmony. The entire race was now out of harmony with God.

We become dead in our own trespasses and sins. Adam's sin had no direct effect on the rest of humanity.

…and then we actually sin to become sinners. It is an inevitable event for everyone born of Adam, for “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”!

We are not condemned by Adam’s sin, but our own personal sins; but Adam’s sin guarantees that we will eventually deliberately choose to sin, and therein lies our condemnation.


Doug

 

[Jim]

It has been the continual teaching of the church since its inception. So by definition it is the orthodox teaching by which heresy is judged.

That is not the criterion for heresy.

We are born with a proclivity for sin…we are not like Adam was; he was created in harmony with God and chose to break that harmony. The entire race was now out of harmony with God.

Whether we are born just like Adam was is not the question. The question is since God gives us our spirits, does He give us a dead spirit? The proclivity to sin is not sin. And clearly Adam was also born with a proclivity to sin, since it took only his wife to convince him to disobey God. All that stuff about harmony is only your interpretation or imagination. We are fully in harmony with God until the first time that we disobey God.

…and then we actually sin to become sinners. It is an inevitable event for everyone born of Adam, for “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”!

Until we actually sin, we are alive and well in our spirits and in perfect harmony with God. Only once we sin are we dead in trespass and sin.

We are not condemned by Adam’s sin, but our own personal sins; but Adam’s sin guarantees that we will eventually deliberately choose to sin, and therein lies our condemnation.

No we are not guaranteed to sin by anything but our own desires. You have a strange mixture of doctrines.

 

[JesusFan]

That is not the criterion for heresy.

Whether we are born just like Adam was is not the question. The question is since God gives us our spirits, does He give us a dead spirit? The proclivity to sin is not sin. And clearly Adam was also born with a proclivity to sin, since it took only his wife to convince him to disobey God. All that stuff about harmony is only your interpretation or imagination. We are fully in harmony with God until the first time that we disobey God.

Until we actually sin, we are alive and well in our spirits and in perfect harmony with God. Only once we sin are we dead in trespass and sin.

No we are not guaranteed to sin by anything but our own desires. You have a strange mixture of doctrines.

Romans 8:7-9
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God
Who are the fleshy and carnal minded? the Lost person, in his sin nature and flesh

 

[TibiasDad]

Do you disagree that God gave us our spirits when we were born, and it is the way we communicate with Him, especially once we have the Holy Spirit?

We are created to have fellowship with God, and that includes communion/communication. Fellowship can only happen when the Holy Spirit unites us with the Father through indwelling us.

Doug

 

[Jim]

Romans 8:7-9
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God
Who are the fleshy and carnal minded? the Lost person, in his sin nature and flesh

Nothing there about any of that being Adam's fault or about sin nature.

 

[Jim]

We are created to have fellowship with God, and that includes communion/communication. Fellowship can only happen when the Holy Spirit unites us with the Father through indwelling us.

Doug

So you believe as the Calvinists do that indwelling of the Holy Spirit was an OT feature as well as a NT feature.

 

[TibiasDad]

So you believe as the Calvinists do that indwelling of the Holy Spirit was an OT feature as well as a NT feature.

I don’t believe I said that at all. The Spirit was with or on people in the OT as a general rule; indwelling as a constant experience doesn’t happen until Pentecost.

I was not aware that Calvinists held such a position as the OT indwelling of the Spirit as in the NT.

Doug

 

[Jim]

I don’t believe I said that at all. The Spirit was with or on people in the OT as a general rule; indwelling as a constant experience doesn’t happen until Pentecost.

I was not aware that Calvinists held such a position as the OT indwelling of the Spirit as in the NT.

Doug

The indwelling Holy Spirit is a result of being born again, i.e., being regenerated. Calvinist doctrine demands that one be born again before one can even believe in God. Thus any in the OT who believed in God must have been born again, i.e., must have been regenerated. That is mandated by the doctrine of Total Depravity.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I don’t believe I said that at all. The Spirit was with or on people in the OT as a general rule; indwelling as a constant experience doesn’t happen until Pentecost.

I was not aware that Calvinists held such a position as the OT indwelling of the Spirit as in the NT.

Doug

The indwelling Holy Spirit is a result of being born again, i.e., being regenerated. Calvinist doctrine demands that one be born again before one can even believe in God. Thus any in the OT who believed in God must have been born again, i.e., must have been regenerated. That is mandated by the doctrine of Total Depravity.

I wonder if part of the difficulty here is that we may be blending categories that Scripture does not explicitly equate.

It certainly seems clear that no one ... Old Testament or New ....has ever believed apart from the work of the Spirit. Abraham believed God (Genesis 15:6), and genuine faith surely required spiritual life.

At the same time, Jesus says in John 14:17 that the Spirit was “with” the disciples but would later be “in” them. That suggests some kind of shift connected to the New Covenant and Pentecost.

So perhaps we need to distinguish between:
The Spirit giving life (regeneration), And the New Covenant, permanent indwelling/sealing ministry described after Christ’s glorification (Ephesians 1:13).

Those may be closely related, but Scripture does not explicitly say they functioned identically in every era.

David’s prayer in Psalm 51:11 (“take not Your Holy Spirit from me”) also suggests that the Spirit’s presence under the Old Covenant was not described in quite the same permanent sealing language we see later.

And regarding the order of salvation, I think we should also be careful not to state more than Scripture states. The Bible never explicitly says, “The Spirit regenerates someone months or years before they believe.” That is a theological construction, not a direct verse. While many hold that regeneration logically precedes faith, the text itself consistently presents faith and reception of the Spirit in very close connection (for example, Ephesians 1:13).

So rather than assuming Calvinism demands one conclusion, or that OT believers had no regenerative work of the Spirit, it might be more accurate to say....The Spirit has always been the source of spiritual life, but the covenantal indwelling ministry appears to reach its fullness at Pentecost.

That seems to preserve both continuity and development in redemptive history.