Who is the creator

[TibiasDad]

144,000( numbered) are bought from the Earth to heaven( Rev 14:3)= the little flock

They are the only “saved” ones. They are “redeemed from the Earth”. Furthermore, the 144,000 are, according to scripture, all Jewish men, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, who are all virgins and have never lied!

( Luke 10:32)= the anointed bride of Christ-these will sit on thrones by Jesus' side( Rev 1:6--Rev 20:6)

Rev 1:5…To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

This refers to all believers, not just the 144k.

Rev 20:4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

These are those who were martyrs for Christ, not the 144k.

The great crowd

The great crowd are in heaven before the throne. Rev 7:9

( Rev 7:9) no man can number, are the other sheep( John 10:16) who are not of that fold-these get these promises=Matt 5:5--Psalm 37:9,11,29--

(Prov 2:21-22 assures they will not leave the Earth.

20Thus you will walk in the ways of the good
and keep to the paths of the righteous.
21For the upright will live in the land,
and the blameless will remain in it;

Solomon was speaking of his son’s future life in the land of Israel, not the earth in general.

Thus you are mistaken on what we believe.

I may not always state things exactly as the Watchtower would, but I am not misrepresenting what they teach and claim.

I suppose you believe the new Earth is a new planet= error.

Rev 21:1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

I am not going to insist that it is a “new planet” but I am not going to say it could not be. Kainos means “new, which as recently made, is superior to what it succeeds.” Thus, it could physically be the same planet completely renewed so as to be vastly superior to the original planet, or it could mean a replacement planet and universe. Either way, it will be completely different from what we know now.

Doug

 

[Jim]

Romans 7 is not about the Christian experience, but Paul’s realization that he is a slave to sin by means of the law.

How is Paul being a slave to sin by means of the law not about Christian experience?

Paul said that he “was alive once” without the law, but that when he learned the law, “sin revived and I died”.

I am curious to know what you think that means. When was Paul "alive once without the law"?

I think Paul was describing his coming to the age of accountability. That point in the child's life when he first begins to know and understand God's law and in disobedience to that law commits his first sin.

 

[Jim]

flesh, body, the soft tissue of a creature, often in contrast to bone, ligament, or sinew; by extension human, humankind, with a focus on the fallen human nature, which is frail and corrupt in contrast to immaterial (spiritual) things, thus the NIV (1984) translation sinful nature.

I would be very careful in using the NIV as any "rule of thumb" for accurate biblical definition and meaning.

 

[TibiasDad]

How is Paul being a slave to sin by means of the law not about Christian experience?

Rom 6:22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.



Rom 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

How can we be set free form the law of sin and death and be able to fulfill all the righteous requirements of the law and still be a slave to sin?

I am curious to know what you think that means. When was Paul "alive once without the law"?

I think Paul was describing his coming to the age of accountability. That point in the child's life when he first begins to know and understand God's law and in disobedience to that law commits his first sin.

I agree completely; which was looking back at his childhood before he understood the meaning of the law, thus, before he was a Christian.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I would be very careful in using the NIV as any "rule of thumb" for accurate biblical definition and meaning.

Bill Mounce cited it, not me! Take his opinion over mine 24/7/365!

Doug

 

[Jim]

How can we be set free form the law of sin and death and be able to fulfill all the righteous requirements of the law and still be a slave to sin?

Being a slave does not mean that you like being a slave; nor does it mean that you would not like to be free from being a slave, nor does it mean always doing what you are told.

I agree completely; which was looking back at his childhood before he understood the meaning of the law, thus, before he was a Christian.

Doug

Before having sinned whether or not he ever becomes a Christian.

 

[Jim]

Bill Mounce cited it, not me! Take his opinion over mine 24/7/365!

Doug

I know nothing about any Bill Mounce.

 

[TibiasDad]

Being a slave does not mean that you like being a slave;

I didn’t say anything about liking being a slave; though I might counter that I love being a slave to God!

The point is that Paul realizes his being bound to the control of sin to the point that he does the things he doesn’t want to do, like coveting, with no capacity to control or stop himself!

In Romans 6 and 8, Paul teaches a Christian’s freedom from such slavery to sin, so how can the teacher be a real time slave to sin in chapter 7?

nor does it mean that you would not like to be free from being a slave,

Of course not.

nor does it mean always doing what you are told.

No, but it does mean that you are under the authority and control of that which has enslaved you. Obedience is expected!

I know nothing about any Bill Mounce.

That’s not a good thing… He’s a world renowned conservative Greek scholar. I would suggest getting familiar with his work. There are many others who would concur with him at this point of discussion.


Doug

 

[Keiw1]

Read it again, K. It says "and afterwards." That shows me that not all of the total third of the angels fell at the same time. What's interesting is that Paul talks about a woman should cover her hair "on account of the angels."

More may have fallen, but God did not let them appear as mortal and take wives and make more Nephlim.

 

[Keiw1]

They are the only “saved” ones. They are “redeemed from the Earth”. Furthermore, the 144,000 are, according to scripture, all Jewish men, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, who are all virgins and have never lied!



Rev 1:5…To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

This refers to all believers, not just the 144k.

Rev 20:4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

These are those who were martyrs for Christ, not the 144k.


The great crowd are in heaven before the throne. Rev 7:9









20Thus you will walk in the ways of the good
and keep to the paths of the righteous.
21For the upright will live in the land,
and the blameless will remain in it;

Solomon was speaking of his son’s future life in the land of Israel, not the earth in general.



I may not always state things exactly as the Watchtower would, but I am not misrepresenting what they teach and claim.



Rev 21:1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

I am not going to insist that it is a “new planet” but I am not going to say it could not be. Kainos means “new, which as recently made, is superior to what it succeeds.” Thus, it could physically be the same planet completely renewed so as to be vastly superior to the original planet, or it could mean a replacement planet and universe. Either way, it will be completely different from what we know now.

Doug

False reasoning as usual--Rev 7:9=The great crowd, no man can number-These are the other sheep( John 10:16) who are not of that fold.--See they will become one flock( in Gods kingdom) They both have different promises-The little flock= heaven to sit on thrones beside Jesus( Rev 1:6-Rev 20:6)--The great crowd will stand before the throne( ruling authority) on Earth-Matt 5:5-Psalm 37:9,11,29.

 

[Jim]

That’s not a good thing… He’s a world renowned conservative Greek scholar. I would suggest getting familiar with his work. There are many others who would concur with him at this point of discussion.


Doug

If he references the NIV as rendering a good interpretation of sarx to be sin nature or sinful nature, then I am not all that sure that I would trust him. But I will look him up.

 

[TibiasDad]

False reasoning as usual--Rev 7:9=The great crowd, no man can number-These are the other sheep( John 10:16) who are not of that fold.--See they will become one flock( in Gods kingdom)

False exegesis! As usual, you’re only repeating yourself not proving your point or disproving mine.

There is no correlation between the great crown and the other sheep, except that they are all necessarily believers.

The “not of this fold” means that they are not Jewish. Jesus says “I will bring them also”, future tense, which would point toward the Gentiles being included in the flock.

They both have different promises-The little flock= heaven to sit on thrones beside Jesus( Rev 1:6-Rev 20:6)--

Rev 1:5To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

This is the whole of the church, and the recipients of this letter from John. Nothing more, nothing less.


Rev 20:6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

This refers directly to “the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev 20:4)

The great crowd will stand before the throne( ruling authority) on Earth-Matt 5:5-Psalm 37:9,11,29.

Matt 5:5 and Pam 37:9,11, 29 happens on the new Earth at the end of time. It represents the ultimate and final outcome of the righteous.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

If he references the NIV as rendering a good interpretation of sarx to be sin nature or sinful nature, then I am not all that sure that I would trust him. But I will look him up.

​

​

Word Studies in the New Living Translation: σάρξ (sarx)​

Posted on May 17, 2022 by natalie
Greek: σάρξ (sarx)
English: flesh, human body, earthly body, sinful human nature

by Mark D. Taylor, NLT Bible Translation Committee



LOGOS Community

Louw uses the excellent example of sarx, “flesh,” a word often translated literally in the versions (1982:39–40). However, note the following widely different semantic uses: Matthew 24:22, “no flesh will be saved” (no person); John 1:14, “the Word became flesh” (became a human being); Romans 9:8, “children of the flesh” (children of natural birth); Hebrews 5:7, “days of his flesh” (his earthly life); Romans 8:13, “live according to the flesh” (sinful nature); Jude 7, “went after strange flesh” (sexual immorality).

Logos of Agape

Sarx is probably best described as specifically our current mortal (fallen) human state- that is the human body and its physical needs and desires that (if not controlled) leads toward selfish acts and motives.

Daniel B. Wallace

Daniel B. Wallace’s analysis of
sarx (flesh) is situated within his work on Greek grammar, particularly regarding how the definite article functions in Paul's writings to distinguish between literal flesh and the sinful human nature.

• Contextual Definition: While sarx can mean physical, biological tissue (soma), Wallace notes that Paul often uses it in a technical, theological sense to mean the sinful human nature or disposition that opposes the Spirit.

I can offer more if you so desire!


Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

More may have fallen, but God did not let them appear as mortal and take wives and make more Nephlim.

It is how Goliath came into being. This is also why God commanded that even the children should be wiped out in some nations. In some cases, even the animals. That had to be done because of the sin of beastiality.

You really aren't teachable are you. It was already announced that the Nephilim that caused God to wipe them out in the flood, would happen again. Those angels are chained. These are from angels not yet fallen. That is what the "and afterwards" is all about.

 

[Jim]

​

​

Word Studies in the New Living Translation: σάρξ (sarx)​

Posted on May 17, 2022 by natalie
Greek: σάρξ (sarx)
English: flesh, human body, earthly body, sinful human nature

by Mark D. Taylor, NLT Bible Translation Committee



LOGOS Community

Louw uses the excellent example of sarx, “flesh,” a word often translated literally in the versions (1982:39–40). However, note the following widely different semantic uses: Matthew 24:22, “no flesh will be saved” (no person); John 1:14, “the Word became flesh” (became a human being); Romans 9:8, “children of the flesh” (children of natural birth); Hebrews 5:7, “days of his flesh” (his earthly life); Romans 8:13, “live according to the flesh” (sinful nature); Jude 7, “went after strange flesh” (sexual immorality).

Not even the NIV translates/interprets sarx in Romans 8:12-13 as sinful nature. Doing so is nothing more than eisegesis. I suspect that some of that comes from the false doctrine of the imputation of Adam's sin to the whole of humanity.

Logos of Agape

Sarx is probably best described as specifically our current mortal (fallen) human state- that is the human body and its physical needs and desires that (if not controlled) leads toward selfish acts and motives.

Daniel B. Wallace

Daniel B. Wallace’s analysis of
sarx (flesh) is situated within his work on Greek grammar, particularly regarding how the definite article functions in Paul's writings to distinguish between literal flesh and the sinful human nature.

• Contextual Definition: While sarx can mean physical, biological tissue (soma), Wallace notes that Paul often uses it in a technical, theological sense to mean the sinful human nature or disposition that opposes the Spirit.

I can offer more if you so desire!


Doug

I am not surprised that more than just Bill Mounce have put their own eisegesis into Paul's teaching. We all have the tendency to do that at one point or another. I accept that the Greek word sarx can, depending on the context, mean either flesh as the meat of an animal, the body as opposed to the spirit, human nature or human being, the person. If Paul or any other NT writers had wanted to mean sinful human nature, they could easily have done that. They didn't. Human nature is not all sinful. Not everything one does, lost or saved, is bad, evil or sinful.

We humans are as God made us. It is important to understand that as humans we have been given free will. How we use that free will is the subject of passages such as Romans 6-8. Jesus came in the "sarx". He was fully human. That means He was a human being with a human nature.

If you wish to discuss Romans 8:3 wherein Paul says that God sent Jesus in the "likeness of sinful flesh" we can do that. I would point out that when Paul meant sinful flesh, he wrote ἁμαρτίαν ἐν τῇ σαρκί, i.e., sinful flesh. He appropriately modified the word flesh with the adjective sinful.

 

[TibiasDad]

Not even the NIV translates/interprets sarx in Romans 8:12-13 as sinful nature.

The NIV has already established the fact of flesh meaning sinful nature in verse 3

b 3 In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verses 4-13.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I am not surprised that more than just Bill Mounce have put their own eisegesis into Paul's teaching.

Wow! Wow! Wow!

And how many degrees in Greek do you have to accuse Mounce of eisegesis? Be careful of the impending proverbial fall in your future.

Doug

 

[Keiw1]

False exegesis! As usual, you’re only repeating yourself not proving your point or disproving mine.

There is no correlation between the great crown and the other sheep, except that they are all necessarily believers.

The “not of this fold” means that they are not Jewish. Jesus says “I will bring them also”, future tense, which would point toward the Gentiles being included in the flock.


Rev 1:5To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

This is the whole of the church, and the recipients of this letter from John. Nothing more, nothing less.


Rev 20:6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

This refers directly to “the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev 20:4)


Matt 5:5 and Pam 37:9,11, 29 happens on the new Earth at the end of time. It represents the ultimate and final outcome of the righteous.

Doug

Its commendable you studied hard, just sad you refuse to believe Jesus over the men in darkness you believe. Its 100% undeniable fact, in every translation on Earth the teachings of Jesus prove the Jehovah witnesses are correct. Study him properly over those men of darkness. The wise do.

 

[Keiw1]

It is how Goliath came into being. This is also why God commanded that even the children should be wiped out in some nations. In some cases, even the animals. That had to be done because of the sin of beastiality.

You really aren't teachable are you. It was already announced that the Nephilim that caused God to wipe them out in the flood, would happen again. Those angels are chained. These are from angels not yet fallen. That is what the "and afterwards" is all about.

The bible doesn't say Goliath was Nephlim--only one in darkness would make that up out of false reasoning.

 

[Keiw1]

If he references the NIV as rendering a good interpretation of sarx to be sin nature or sinful nature, then I am not all that sure that I would trust him. But I will look him up.

No trinity believer is an actual scholar. All Greek manuscripts today were done out of Catholicism( 2 Thess 2:3) translating from the 4th century. Nothing older existed( barring a few minor fragments) of NT when the protestants translated. =altered and error filled by satans will to mislead to destruction.