Who is the creator

[Keiw1]

You said:


1Cor 10:25-ff are the take home meaning of what Paul was saying in verses 14-22. It means nothing remotely close to what you are saying by cherry picking a single verse out of context. This has nothing to do with Easter or Christmas celebrations.

Think, Keiw1, think for yourself not just what you are told to think!


Doug

Its not out of context-- a 10 year old can understand-no division.
Hundreds of religions claiming to be Christian, all teaching different truths on certain matters--Jesus leads his 1 religion into all truth he promised. Thus these have unity of thought( all of Gods truth) = not the twisted mass of confusion and disagreement by those using altered translations that mislead to destruction.

 

[TibiasDad]

Your darkness is clear to all. All know Jesus was never with Catholicism, they are these 2Thess 2:3 and now her hundreds of branches are as well. Catholicism by satans will altered translation to mislead to destruction. He murdered all of you centuries ago. Luke 17:26)

I don’t see a biblical answer to my question, can’t you answer it?

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I did deal with it. Your darkness will not listen-If one in heaven can actually look down and see family members suffering like that, that one would have no joy.

1) For your benefit I will quote from the NWT:

John 16:<a data-anchor="#v42016019">19 </a> “There was a rich man who used to dress in purple and linen,n enjoying himself day after day with magnificence.<a data-anchor="#v42016020">20 </a> But a beggar named Lazʹa·rus used to be put at his gate, covered with ulcers<a data-anchor="#v42016021">21 </a> and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, even the dogs would come and lick his ulcers. <a data-anchor="#v42016022">22 </a> Now in the course of time, the beggar died and was carried off by the angels to Abraham’s side.“Also, the rich man died and was buried.<a data-anchor="#v42016023">23 </a> And in the Grave he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and he saw Abraham from afar and Lazʹa·rus by his side. <a data-anchor="#v42016024">24 </a> So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazʹa·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’ <a data-anchor="#v42016025">25 </a> But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you had your fill of good things in your lifetime, but Lazʹa·rus for his part received bad things. Now, however, he is being comforted here, but you are in anguish.o <a data-anchor="#v42016026">26 </a> And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to go over from here to you cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’<a data-anchor="#v42016027">27 </a> Then he said, ‘That being so, I ask you, father, to send him to the house of my father, <a data-anchor="#v42016028">28 </a> for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness so that they will not also come into this place of torment.’ <a data-anchor="#v42016029">29 </a> But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’p
<a data-anchor="#v42016030">30 </a> Then he said, ‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ <a data-anchor="#v42016031">31 </a> But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”


Show me where anyone looked down and saw what was happening on Earth!

2) The rich man was in Hell; that’s why he had no joy!

3) The rich man simply didn’t want his brothers to end up where he was- which was Hell!

4) Hades is in contrast to Paradise. The grave is not Hades; Hades is the place of the dead, and as demonstrated by the account, it is a place of “torment” and “agony”. Nothing is experienced in the “grave” because the only thing in the “grave” is a lifeless corpse!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Its not out of context-- a 10 year old can understand-no division.
Hundreds of religions claiming to be Christian, all teaching different truths on certain matters--Jesus leads his 1 religion into all truth he promised. Thus these have unity of thought( all of Gods truth) = not the twisted mass of confusion and disagreement by those using altered translations that mislead to destruction.

The absence of thinking is the absence of conflict. Nobody who uses their God given brain will always agree with everyone about everything!

There are many particulars where disagreements are evident, but we all believe in the foundational principles of truth that bind the church universal together in one body! Chief among them that Jesus is God in human flesh!

Love overcomes disagreement, “love is patient, love is kind, it doesn’t envy, there is no pride, it always with the truth abides, love will never die” (From a song based on 1Cor 13 by D. Allen Jenkins, aka, yours truly)

A place of absolute unanimity here on earth is a non thinking environment.

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

As a point of logic, “the western church” does not equate to Luther’s erroneous statement.

This said, while I don’t believe in OSAS, I also don’t think that those who do necessarily believe or practice Luther’s doctrine.

I don’t think that I would hold to your interpretation of Rev 3:4 either, but I don’t want to go to battle or die on that hill. There are in every church age and every individual church those who “have a reputation” or outward appearance of being a Christian, but are not, and those who truly are believers regardless of what others may perceive. Paul told Timothy that there are some “who have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof” (2Tim 3:5), and there are always those types in the church.


Doug

Just as a point of interest, what church age do you think John Wesley was a part of? You know what I think, but you don't, so which one?

 

[charismaticlady]

Man is born clean and pure of all unrighteousness.

Do you have a scripture you can quote on this? A baby comes out of the womb self-centered. But that is not a damnable offense. All of mankind has a sin nature due to Adam's sin unto death. This is why Jesus died on the cross for us. 1. To defeat the work of Satan. 2. To cleanse our nature from lawless sins unto death.

What is not taught in most churches is the fact that a born again Christian has a clean nature. John 15:3. Most denominations still teach we all have a sin nature.

As the Author of our faith, Jesus cleansed us of the desire to commit lawless sins unto death. As the Finisher of our faith, Jesus then starts the long process of cleansing us of sins not unto death - immature fruit of the Spirit.

As the Author Jesus washes, sanctifies and justifies us making us righteous.
As the Finisher Jesus perfects us as each fruit is matured unto holiness.

Revelation 22:11b he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”
Phil. 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

It is not by our own works. It is all Jesus. All we have to do is abide in Him, and obey our super-sensitized conscience where the laws of God have become a part of us. We no longer have a sin nature that is in opposition to the laws of God. The clean nature that Jesus succeeds in creating those who are born again of the Spirit lets us partake of the divine nature of God.

Most churches do not teach "be holy as I am holy." They teach that we will always sin until our dead bodies are resurrected. Heresy and unbiblical - just human reasoning based on their own nature that has not been born again. Personally, I went to church for 30 years before I was born again of the Spirit. I literally felt a heaviness leave my body, and all desire to sin was gone. It was a shock to realize that most of the church is not born again.

 

[TibiasDad]

Just as a point of interest, what church age do you think John Wesley was a part of? You know what I think, but you don't, so which one?

I’m not sure what you mean by “church age”. Can you elaborate and clarify what you’re looking for in my answer.


Doug

 

[Jim]

Only if we continue in faith. That’s why perseverance is urged so often, for instance, when Paul told Timothy, in 1Tim 4:16:

Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

The question is, if one doesn’t persevere, do they then still save themselves and others? Does not the “if” factor make “saving yourself and your hearers” a conditional outcome on the persevering?


Doug

Salvation, whether attaining it or keeping it, is conditional upon believing in God, i.e., having faith in God. The "if" factor is always faith.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Your darkness is clear to all. All know Jesus was never with Catholicism, they are these 2Thess 2:3 and now her hundreds of branches are as well. Catholicism by satans will altered translation to mislead to destruction. He murdered all of you centuries ago. Luke 17:26)

Did Jesus hate Peter?

 

[Jim]

Do you have a scripture you can quote on this? A baby comes out of the womb self-centered. But that is not a damnable offense. All of mankind has a sin nature due to Adam's sin unto death. This is why Jesus died on the cross for us. 1. To defeat the work of Satan. 2. To cleanse our nature from lawless sins unto death.

NO! NO! NO! Romans 5. All the adherents of that false doctrine of Original Sin like to quote the first parts in verses 18 and 19 to support the idea that all are born with the sin of Adam tied around their necks. Then they either ignore the second parts or read into them some error to reinforce their false idea about the first part. Both verses, when taken as they are written, tell us that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ set aside all that might have occurred due to the disobedience of Adam. Without the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God, the entire company of mankind would have been effectively condemned at the very outset with no chance of and change.

What is not taught in most churches is the fact that a born again Christian has a clean nature. John 15:3. Most denominations still teach we all have a sin nature.

Yes and that is pathetic. Especially since there is not one word in the whole of the Bible that speaks of man having a sin nature.
God forms the spirit of man in each and every child at or before birth. That spirit is alive, clean and pure. It becomes tainted or depraved when the child first commits a sin against God. At that point, that spirit becomes dead in sin. In regeneration, the spirit of that person is made alive, clean and pure again. That is why it is called being born AGAIN.

As the Author of our faith, Jesus cleansed us of the desire to commit lawless sins unto death. As the Finisher of our faith, Jesus then starts the long process of cleansing us of sins not unto death - immature fruit of the Spirit.

Not true. At that time, we are Justified, Regenerated and initially Sanctified. We each become a child of God. We are forgiven of our sins and we are given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit. We are not forgiven just of any past sins, but rather all sins past, present and future. Forgiveness is a state of being. We are justified. To be justified is to be declared righteous. We are regenerated. To be regenerated is to be made alive, spiritually, again. We are initially sanctified, Sanctification is the process of maturing in our faith, growing in our belief in God, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation.

We could continue produce pages and pages of what all of this means. Books and books have been written on these very things.

 

[JesusFan]

NO! NO! NO! Romans 5. All the adherents of that false doctrine of Original Sin like to quote the first parts in verses 18 and 19 to support the idea that all are born with the sin of Adam tied around their necks. Then they either ignore the second parts or read into them some error to reinforce their false idea about the first part. Both verses, when taken as they are written, tell us that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ set aside all that might have occurred due to the disobedience of Adam. Without the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God, the entire company of mankind would have been effectively condemned at the very outset with no chance of and change.

Yes and that is pathetic. Especially since there is not one word in the whole of the Bible that speaks of man having a sin nature.
God forms the spirit of man in each and every child at or before birth. That spirit is alive, clean and pure. It becomes tainted or depraved when the child first commits a sin against God. At that point, that spirit becomes dead in sin. In regeneration, the spirit of that person is made alive, clean and pure again. That is why it is called being born AGAIN.

Not true. At that time, we are Justified, Regenerated and initially Sanctified. We each become a child of God. We are forgiven of our sins and we are given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit. We are not forgiven just of any past sins, but rather all sins past, present and future. Forgiveness is a state of being. We are justified. To be justified is to be declared righteous. We are regenerated. To be regenerated is to be made alive, spiritually, again. We are initially sanctified, Sanctification is the process of maturing in our faith, growing in our belief in God, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation.

We could continue produce pages and pages of what all of this means. Books and books have been written on these very things.

While saved right now, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, still have old flesh nature seeking to have us turn away from obeying God

 

[charismaticlady]

I’m not sure what you mean by “church age”. Can you elaborate and clarify what you’re looking for in my answer.


Doug

Sorry, I'm talking about the three-fold prophecy letters in Revelation 2 and 3.

 

[charismaticlady]

NO! NO! NO! Romans 5. All the adherents of that false doctrine of Original Sin like to quote the first parts in verses 18 and 19 to support the idea that all are born with the sin of Adam tied around their necks. Then they either ignore the second parts or read into them some error to reinforce their false idea about the first part. Both verses, when taken as they are written, tell us that the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ set aside all that might have occurred due to the disobedience of Adam. Without the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God, the entire company of mankind would have been effectively condemned at the very outset with no chance of and change.

Are you saying that all mankind now is saved because of Jesus, whether they sin or not?

Yes and that is pathetic. Especially since there is not one word in the whole of the Bible that speaks of man having a sin nature.
God forms the spirit of man in each and every child at or before birth. That spirit is alive, clean and pure. It becomes tainted or depraved when the child first commits a sin against God. At that point, that spirit becomes dead in sin. In regeneration, the spirit of that person is made alive, clean and pure again. That is why it is called being born AGAIN.

It can be confusing, I agree. But Paul calls it by odd and confusing names, and "sin nature" just clarifies what he is talking about. What do you think the "old man" is. How about Paul saying we are not in "the flesh" but in the Spirit? What "flesh" is he talking about? Our bodies, or our nature. You see, our nature has to be cleansed of its evil desires so that we may partake of the divine nature of God. Therefore, we can address our inner being that is unsaved, and becomes born again as sin nature vs. divine nature. Understand?

Not true. At that time, we are Justified, Regenerated and initially Sanctified. We each become a child of God. We are forgiven of our sins and we are given the gift, the indwelling, of the Holy Spirit. We are not forgiven just of any past sins, but rather all sins past, present and future. Forgiveness is a state of being. We are justified. To be justified is to be declared righteous. We are regenerated. To be regenerated is to be made alive, spiritually, again. We are initially sanctified, Sanctification is the process of maturing in our faith, growing in our belief in God, in Jesus Christ, in the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation.

Scripture says when we are first saved we are washed, we are sanctified, and we are justified,1 Cor. 6:11. This is of our past sins. 2 Peter 1:9. Done. The heresy is believing that willful lawless "present" and "future" sins will also be committed by the saved, must be confessed and repented. Not true. Why commit a sin you have no desire to commit in the first place? Romans 6:5-7.

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

The sin Paul is referring to here of the two types of sin, are sins unto death - willfully breaking God's commandments of morality. See verse 23. The wages of sin is death. There are sins not unto death which Jesus addresses in us as He glorifies our nature through the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit. When completed, we will never stumble. We would be holy.

Jesus has made it easy for us to keep ourselves. 1 John 1:9 is not a card to be played over and over. It is how to become a born again of the Spirit Christian. That's once and done. It is the way we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Sanctification is not a process. It is merely being set apart for righteousness. 1 Cor. 6:11 is past tense for the believer. There is a process but God does not call it sanctification (man does); God calls is glorification. Man teaches a heresy that glorification is not now but after we are dead and has to do with our body. No. Glorification is the process to become holy. Revelation 22:11b righteousness and holiness are not cloaks we wear over our sin. We are righteous when Jesus as the Author of our faith TAKES AWAY lawless sin out of us. That is out of our spirit and soul, together called our nature. We are holy when all the fruit of the Spirit are mature and we never stumble. 2 Peter 1:5-11.

We could continue produce pages and pages of what all of this means. Books and books have been written on these very things.

But they are not the Bible. The heresies in the Church happened a long time ago and have stuck like glue. Only the born again of the Holy Spirit can understand the hidden mysteries of God. The natural man, even in the church who are not born again, think these truths I've shared with you, are foolishness. 1 Cor. 2:14. They wrote all those books you love. I love the Bible.

 

[Jim]

Are you saying that all mankind now is saved because of Jesus, whether they sin or not?

No. I am saying that all are born into this world free of sin. They remain so until such time that they commit a sin.

It can be confusing, I agree. But Paul calls it by odd and confusing names, and "sin nature" just clarifies what he is talking about. What do you think the "old man" is. How about Paul saying we are not in "the flesh" but in the Spirit? What "flesh" is he talking about? Our bodies, or our nature. You see, our nature has to be cleansed of its evil desires so that we may partake of the divine nature of God. Therefore, we can address our inner being that is unsaved, and becomes born again as sin nature vs. divine nature. Understand?

No, the term and meaning of "sin nature" does not clarify anything. The "old man" is what the person becomes being a sinner and not yet born again. He becomes "the old man"; he doesn't begin that way. It is not God who creates the old man.

Scripture says when we are first saved we are washed, we are sanctified, and we are justified,1 Cor. 6:11. This is of our past sins.

Not just past sins. Justification is a state of being. To be justified means that God has declared a state, a condition, of being righteous. One doesn't fall from grace at each sin committed and then needing to be forgiven again each time. That was, and I think still is, a terrible doctrine of the Catholic church. We are saved by grace through faith. We remain saved by grace through faith. We do not lose our salvation through any future sin. We can lose our salvation if we become nonbelievers. If we get to a point that we no longer believe in God, then and only then, do we lose salvation.

 

[TibiasDad]

Especially since there is not one word in the whole of the Bible that speaks of man having a sin nature.

You apparently don’t have Romans 8 in your Bible:

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you<a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="The Greek is singular; some manuscripts me">a</a> free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verses 4-13.">b</a> God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="Or flesh, for sin">c</a> And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="Or you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive">d</a> because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="Some manuscripts bodies through">e</a> his Spirit who lives in you.

12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

The word is “sarx” or flesh and it doesn’t mean our physical nature.

Doug

 

[Jim]

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

The sin Paul is referring to here of the two types of sin, are sins unto death - willfully breaking God's commandments of morality. See verse 23. The wages of sin is death. There are sins not unto death which Jesus addresses in us as He glorifies our nature through the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit. When completed, we will never stumble. We would be holy.

No, Paul is not talking about two types of sin.

Read again Romans 6:15-16. It is being a slave of sin that results in death. It is the status of being the slave that results in death, not any particular sin.

Jesus has made it easy for us to keep ourselves. 1 John 1:9 is not a card to be played over and over. It is how to become a born again of the Spirit Christian. That's once and done. It is the way we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, nothing there about two types of sin.

 

[Jim]

You apparently don’t have Romans 8 in your Bible:

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you<a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="The Greek is singular; some manuscripts me">a</a> free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="In contexts like this, the Greek word for flesh (sarx) refers to the sinful state of human beings, often presented as a power in opposition to the Spirit; also in verses 4-13.">b</a> God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="Or flesh, for sin">c</a> And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="Or you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive">d</a> because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of <a href="https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/8.htm#footnotes" title="Some manuscripts bodies through">e</a> his Spirit who lives in you.

12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

The word is “sarx” or flesh and it doesn’t mean our physical nature.

Doug

And for all of that you did not find the phrase "sin nature" anywhere in Romans 8. Now if you want to discuss what Romans 8 is all about, we can do that.

 

[TibiasDad]

One doesn't fall from grace at each sin committed and then needing to be forgiven again each time

So does it matter if I obey or not? Is not my sinful action an affront to God? Does God just look at my behavior and say, “Gotta love that Doug, but he just can’t help himself; oh well, it doesn’t matter anyway because he’s already forgiven, despite his deliberate choices”? μὴ γένοιτο.

One who deliberately continues to sin without repentance (which means cessation of the sin) is fracturing the relationship between himself and God. I’m not in a position to judge when that relationship is completely broken, so I’m not saying one sin is fatal, but then again we’re not really talking about a singular event, but an event compounded upon by other events.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Salvation, whether attaining it or keeping it, is conditional upon believing in God, i.e., having faith in God. The "if" factor is always faith.

I agree! But keeping faith is not a guarantee if it is possible to forsake it!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Sorry, I'm talking about the three-fold prophecy letters in Revelation 2 and 3.

I’m not of the mindset to correlate the different cities to different ages of time. As I said earlier, we find portions of the church that can be identified by all these factions in every church in every time. I don’t think Wesley is in any particular place in the book of Revelation. I think he illustrates a type of person that can be and is found in the church.

Doug