Who is the creator

[JesusFan]

Many are being mislead by Gen 1:26 false reasoning= Let US make man in our image--Us and our=We.
Gen 1:27= HE( not we) created--Prov 8:27-28= HE( not we created)--Isaiah 44:24-created by myself---myself = 1, not 2
So what is truth of who the us =
Jehovah( HE) and his master worker( Prov 8:30)= the one who was beside God during creation process, the one whom God grew especially fond of= his son, Jesus.
John 1:3,, Col 1:16--Things were created-THROUGH Jesus= another created it all= HE= Jehovah. By myself= the only one with the power and wisdom to create.
Jesus tells all he was created at Prov 8:22-The Hebrew word translated possessed means created.= The firstborn of all creation( Col 1:15)
Trinity bible scholars( religions) CANNOT teach truth on these facts because it exposes them as false.
All creation occurred at the beginning. Will you believe bible facts?

Bible clearly calls Jesus Supreme Creator

 

[charismaticlady]

I know that....

He wrote "He explains he was the one who was beside God during creation." Then wrote " The firstborn of all creation Created direct-first and last= only begotten son." He quoting ( Col 1:15-16)-- and ending with. "This is reality."

First... The Word was neither created nor born. Jesus WAS the begotten Son of God... and is who the Word became.

He was never “begotten” at a moment in time.
He has always been the Son.

But

Begotten in time (His incarnation — human birth)​

This refers to when He became man.

It was the Word who was beside God during creation and when Joun 1:3 says
“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” It was the Word....who was there.
Jesus' incarnation. When the Word became flesh happened 4000 plus years after
This statement of @Keiw1 "Created direct-first and last= only begotten son. All other things created-THROUGH- him( John 1:3, Col 1:15-16)-- This is reality.

This is misleading and not the truth.

It is the Word in the beginning with God and through whom creation came into being. About 4000 years later the Word became flesh and Jesus came to human life through Mary and as instructed he was named Jesus. The rest is history and it was recorded and unfolded.

The reality is:
As God, He is eternally begotten with no beginning.
As man, He was conceived in Mary’s womb when the Word became flesh.
As Messiah-King, He was declared “begotten” at the resurrection.
Creation was not performed by the human Jesus, who was born in time, but by the eternal Word who later became Jesus. Therefore He is not a created being, but the Creator who took on a created human nature.

And the only conclusion is

Christ did not begin at Bethlehem. In the beginning He existed as the eternal Word, and all things were created through Him. “Jesus” is the name He took when the Word became flesh and was born of Mary. Therefore, the Creator is not a created being, but the eternal Son who entered His own creation by becoming man.

Okay, now I see what you meant. For a second there I wondered what in the world were you trying to say. LOL

 

[Keiw1]

Good. Nothing was made that was made that was not through the preincarnate Jesus, so how could be create Himself? "God" is a title that the Father even said of the Son, Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever

Catholicism translating you are showing. It is error. To fit false council teachings. The trinity was created at those councils. Israel NEVER served a trinity while serving the true God.

 

[Keiw1]

πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν. John 1:3

ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως, ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται· καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν, καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν ἡ κεφαλὴ τοῦ σώματος, τῆς ἐκκλησίας· ὅς ἐστιν ἀρχή, πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν, ἵνα γένηται ἐν πᾶσιν αὐτὸς πρωτεύων… Col 1:15-18


Where is the word “other”, Greek word Ἄλλα, in either of the passages above? This is the original Greek, not an English translation or any other translation.

If you can show me the word Ἄλλα in these verses which you cited as proof, then we can talk about “through” (Greek dia).


Doug

Its in parenthesis in the NWT-- because its fact.

 

[Keiw1]

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

And Peter says:

2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Your argument is refuted. The fact that Paul was referring to the Father in 1Cor 8:6 does not mean that Jesus isn’t also God.

Doug

The bible would contradict itself If i am refuted. We know Gods real bible has no contradictions. Catholicism translating errors cause contradictions and mislead.

 

[Keiw1]

But He was not born until at least 4000 years after Adam.....

Colossians 1:15 (NASB95) says, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”
This statement refers to Jesus as the incarnate Christ ... the Word made flesh ...not to the beginning of His existence. The Word already existed eternally with God before creation (John 1:1–3). Therefore, “firstborn” cannot mean He was the first created being. Rather, it describes His rank, authority, and inheritance rights once He entered creation through His physical birth from Mary. In becoming flesh, He became the firstborn in status over creation ...the heir and supreme ruler ... not someone born before creation or created as part of it.

IOW
“Colossians 1:15 is not saying Jesus began to exist or was created. The Word already existed eternally with God (John 1:1–3). ‘Firstborn’ refers to His position and authority after the incarnation, not His origin. It speaks of rank and inheritance, not chronology.”

As to your "The firstborn of all creation-- Created direct-first and last= only begotten son. All other things created-THROUGH- him( John 1:3, Col 1:15-16)-- This is reality."

Not even close....

The claim that Jesus was “created directly first and then created everything else” is not stated anywhere in Scripture ... it is inserted into the text.

John 1:3 plainly says, “All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”

If even one created thing came into existence, it came through Him. That would include Jesus Himself if He were created ... which would mean He created Himself. That’s impossible. Therefore He cannot be a created being.

Colossians 1:16 says the same thing: “by Him all things were created… whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ...all things have been created through Him and for Him.”
If all things were created through Him, then He cannot belong to the category of “created things.”

Also, “begotten” does not mean created.
In Scripture, “begotten” means sharing the same nature. A human begets a human. God begets God.
Created things are made — sons are begotten.

So Jesus is not the first thing God made — He is the eternal Son who shares God’s nature and is the agent of creation itself.

YOU NEED TO ALWAYS REMEMBER................................!

“If Jesus were created, John 1:3 says He would have had to create Himself. That’s absurd. Therefore He isn’t created.”

Born as a perfect mortal. But God sent him from heaven-John 3:16) He is the firstborn of all creation-He is Michael the archangel.

 

[Keiw1]

Bible clearly calls Jesus Supreme Creator

Where?

 

[Keiw1]

I know that....

He wrote "He explains he was the one who was beside God during creation." Then wrote " The firstborn of all creation Created direct-first and last= only begotten son." He quoting ( Col 1:15-16)-- and ending with. "This is reality."

First... The Word was neither created nor born. Jesus WAS the begotten Son of God... and is who the Word became.

He was never “begotten” at a moment in time.
He has always been the Son.

But

Begotten in time (His incarnation — human birth)​

This refers to when He became man.

It was the Word who was beside God during creation and when Joun 1:3 says
“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” It was the Word....who was there.
Jesus' incarnation. When the Word became flesh happened 4000 plus years after
This statement of @Keiw1 "Created direct-first and last= only begotten son. All other things created-THROUGH- him( John 1:3, Col 1:15-16)-- This is reality.

This is misleading and not the truth.

It is the Word in the beginning with God and through whom creation came into being. About 4000 years later the Word became flesh and Jesus came to human life through Mary and as instructed he was named Jesus. The rest is history and it was recorded and unfolded.

The reality is:
As God, He is eternally begotten with no beginning.
As man, He was conceived in Mary’s womb when the Word became flesh.
As Messiah-King, He was declared “begotten” at the resurrection.
Creation was not performed by the human Jesus, who was born in time, but by the eternal Word who later became Jesus. Therefore He is not a created being, but the Creator who took on a created human nature.

And the only conclusion is

Christ did not begin at Bethlehem. In the beginning He existed as the eternal Word, and all things were created through Him. “Jesus” is the name He took when the Word became flesh and was born of Mary. Therefore, the Creator is not a created being, but the eternal Son who entered His own creation by becoming man.

He is Michael the archangel-God sent his best. His firstborn of all creation.

 

[TibiasDad]

Its in parenthesis in the NWT-- because its fact.

It’s in parentheses because it is not in the Greek text! Why add it if it’s not needed. If you had taken Greek, you would know that!

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

Catholicism translating you are showing. It is error. To fit false council teachings. The trinity was created at those councils. Israel NEVER served a trinity while serving the true God.

I'm not Catholic. There is a difference between three persons and one triune being. Seeing as we are made in Elohim's image, which is a plural word, you and I are triune beings also. And the Bible confirms this in three places.

1 Thess. 5:23
23 "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." The Father is the mind. Jesus is the body. And the Holy Spirit is God's heart - not the organ, but the conscience, emotions and power. Together they are One God, just as we are one person.

Colossians 2:9
9 For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

All together they make one God which is a title. Jesus even said, "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father for the Father and I are One.

The Father is invisible, as is the Holy Spirit, and so was the Word until the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. To make that happen God separated part of Himself that was also supernatural and also had glory and became flesh because God can't die but flesh can. And there was no man that was pure enough to take away our sin through the shedding of His blood and death. We see that in John 17 Jesus prayed to the Father who was in His mind to restore the glory He had before when they were together in heaven where they were One.

You have been taught that the Word was "A god." But that is a lie. There are no other gods. Only one, of whom Jesus is part, now that He has His glory back.

Deut. 32:39
‘Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

 

[TibiasDad]

The bible would contradict itself If i am refuted. We know Gods real bible has no contradictions. Catholicism translating errors cause contradictions and mislead.

You are refuted because the Greek contradicts your claim. And I am not Catholic either. I always go to the Greek not the English to determine the meaning of scripture.

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

You are refuted because the Greek contradicts your claim. And I am not Catholic either. I always go to the Greek not the English to determine the meaning of scripture.

Doug

I have discovered also that there is a great difference in writing styles between eastern and western thinking. The Apostles were all Hebrews and therefore wrote in an eastern mindset and style. But that is quite different when interpreted by the western mindset who take things at face value. The only thing that saves us westerners is to place close attention to the context, especially in a long passage. Many take too many verses out of context such as not taking into account that Romans 7 is about the Old Testament Law of Moses which we are NOT under and because Paul uses first person pronouns, an eastern style, Christians believe verses 14-25 are about born again Christians! How foolish and how soon they forget verses 5-6 of the same chapter, to say nothing of chapter 8 that says we are free of Romans 7:14-25, and uses another personal pronoun, "me"!

 

[TibiasDad]

I have discovered also that there is a great difference in writing styles between eastern and western thinking. The Apostles were all Hebrews and therefore wrote in an eastern mindset and style. But that is quite different when interpreted by the western mindset who take things at face value. The only thing that saves us westerners is to place close attention to the context, especially in a long passage. Many take too many verses out of context such as not taking into account that Romans 7 is about the Old Testament Law of Moses which we are NOT under and because Paul uses first person pronouns, an eastern style, Christians believe verses 14-25 are about born again Christians! How foolish and how soon they forget verses 5-6 of the same chapter, to say nothing of chapter 8 that says we are free of Romans 7:14-25, and uses another personal pronoun, "me"!

I agree, Rom 7 is not about the Christian experience. Paul cannot be “set free” from sin in chapter 6 and enslaved to sin in chapter 7 and then set free again in chapter 8.

Paul said that he “was alive once” before he came to know the law, but when he learned the law, “sin revived and I died”. Romans 7 is the final argument against the law as a means of salvation. He finds himself in a catch 22 and says “24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!


Doug

 

[FreeInChrist]

Catholicism translating you are showing. It is error. To fit false council teachings. The trinity was created at those councils. Israel NEVER served a trinity while serving the true God.

I hope you are there so I can see you talking to Peter.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Born as a perfect mortal. But God sent him from heaven-John 3:16) He is the firstborn of all creation-He is Michael the archangel.

Before I hit the ignore button once again I ask Do you ever read anything that any poster writes?

That would certainly explain your redundance of the same answer time after time after time....

I ask one logical simple question and that is "Then why did Gabrielle tell them to name the baby Jesus if he already had the name Michael?

 

[charismaticlady]

I agree, Rom 7 is not about the Christian experience. Paul cannot be “set free” from sin in chapter 6 and enslaved to sin in chapter 7 and then set free again in chapter 8.

Paul said that he “was alive once” before he came to know the law, but when he learned the law, “sin revived and I died”. Romans 7 is the final argument against the law as a means of salvation. He finds himself in a catch 22 and says “24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!


Doug

Yes. Actually the first eight chapters is Paul's teaching on the Old Covenant Law vs. the New Covenant Spirit. Taking verses out of the middle of that context, such as out of chapters 3-5 and making doctrines out of those as some church fathers did, making new denominations out of false teachings, is why there isn't a denomination nor even non-denominational churches that teach the pure Word of God.

 

[Keiw1]

It’s in parentheses because it is not in the Greek text! Why add it if it’s not needed. If you had taken Greek, you would know that!

Doug

It is needed. I showed you the facts-Gen 1:27-HE( creator=YHVH(Jehovah)( not the us) at verse 26( only 1 of them created.) The other is the one who was beside God( Prov 8:30) Gods master worker= builder= The being God sent named Jesus as a mortal.

 

[Keiw1]

I'm not Catholic. There is a difference between three persons and one triune being. Seeing as we are made in Elohim's image, which is a plural word, you and I are triune beings also. And the Bible confirms this in three places.

1 Thess. 5:23
23 "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." The Father is the mind. Jesus is the body. And the Holy Spirit is God's heart - not the organ, but the conscience, emotions and power. Together they are One God, just as we are one person.

Colossians 2:9
9 For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

All together they make one God which is a title. Jesus even said, "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father for the Father and I are One.

The Father is invisible, as is the Holy Spirit, and so was the Word until the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. To make that happen God separated part of Himself that was also supernatural and also had glory and became flesh because God can't die but flesh can. And there was no man that was pure enough to take away our sin through the shedding of His blood and death. We see that in John 17 Jesus prayed to the Father who was in His mind to restore the glory He had before when they were together in heaven where they were One.

You have been taught that the Word was "A god." But that is a lie. There are no other gods. Only one, of whom Jesus is part, now that He has His glory back.

Deut. 32:39
‘Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

All protestant translating originates from Catholicism translating. The Latin Vulgate( 4th century) The Codex sinacticus (4th century) Is all the remained of NT when the protestants translated. There are are a very few minor fragments that are older.

 

[Keiw1]

Before I hit the ignore button once again I ask Do you ever read anything that any poster writes?

That would certainly explain your redundance of the same answer time after time after time....

I ask one logical simple question and that is "Then why did Gabrielle tell them to name the baby Jesus if he already had the name Michael?

God gave him the name Jesus-Hebrews 1:4 , that name made him better than the angels. His partners( companions) mentioned at Psalm 45:7
No Gabriel mentioned at the passage you mentioned.

 

[TibiasDad]

It is needed. I showed you the facts-Gen 1:27-HE( creator=YHVH(Jehovah)( not the us) at verse 26( only 1 of them created.) The other is the one who was beside God( Prov 8:30) Gods master worker= builder= The being God sent named Jesus as a mortal.

John clearly says that Jesus created all things, whatever has been made. Since Jehovah is the creator in Genesis, and Jesus is the creator in John, then Jesus is the Jehovah in Genesis and Jehovah is the Jesus in John.

Proverbs is a highly poetic writing. Wisdom, which is not a personal being, is personified and metaphorically speaks to us. It is highly poetic in its form and not meant to be taken as literal verbatim actuality.

Wisdom could not be a created thing, for that would mean that God did not have any wisdom prior to creating it.

Moreover, the Holy Spirit was also at the creation, hovering over the deep; so there were at least two present at the creation.
The Hebrew word for “hovering” is rachaph, and means to flutter, move, or shake which shows action and purpose and intent to the motion.


Doug