Who is the creator

[charismaticlady]

Oh the irony…


Doug

I thought you would react like this when I wrote it, because not many can teach what I teach. And I could just hear you thinking I am sinning with pride. But that's not true. I'm grateful. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the POWER OF GOD to salvation, For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. It is important to me to acknowledge that it is all Jesus in me and what He did that, try as I might, I could not do until He took away sin out of my very nature. It was a supernatural experience along with a vision and hearing His voice speak 8 sentences to me that have come true.

What is sin is calling God a liar. It seems by your reaction you don't believe that Jesus will finish what He started so that we come to the place that we never stumble. Is that true?

Have you been taught in whatever doctrine of man or demons that we will NEVER be able to stop sinning until we shed these bodies and receive new ones? Jesus wrote doctrines like that bring death not freedom from sin and eternal life.

 

[TibiasDad]

Have you been taught in whatever doctrine of man or demons that we will NEVER be able to stop sinning until we shed these bodies and receive new ones?

Quite the contrary, Wesleyan theology is founded on the ability of the believer to not sin.

Jesus wrote doctrines like that bring death not freedom from sin and eternal life.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here…


Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

Quite the contrary, Wesleyan theology is founded on the ability of the believer to not sin.



I have no idea what you are trying to say here…


Doug

If you believe what I believe then why "the irony" as if it is not possible? John Wesley was turning over in his grave at your statement!

 

[TibiasDad]

If you believe what I believe then why "the irony" as if it is not possible? John Wesley was turning over in his grave at your statement!

Because you claimed to be beyond what the word of God says is obligatory, and thus beyond what Paul says is necessary. One who is made perfect in love does not boast about their perfection, for “love does not boast”. (1Cor 13:4) Perfection is humble, meek, and does not seek its own.

As for Wesley turning over in his grave, how can one who doesn’t know Wesley’s teachings know what would make him turn over in his grave?

Perfection’s bravado is found in the voices of its observers, not its possessor.

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

Because you claimed to be beyond what the word of God says is obligatory, and thus beyond what Paul says is necessary. One who is made perfect in love does not boast about their perfection, for “love does not boast”. (1Cor 13:4) Perfection is humble, meek, and does not seek its own.

As for Wesley turning over in his grave, how can one who doesn’t know Wesley’s teachings know what would make him turn over in his grave?


Doug

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

I know holiness, and Wesley is the church father of holiness and the forerunner of Pentecostalism.

Perfection’s bravado is found in the voices of its observers, not its possessor.

Not when in doing so is honoring God. You know, you are getting a little judgy.

Paul: 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

At least I give Jesus the acknowledgement that He did all the maturing in me. All I had to do is abide in Him and witness His results. Paul is all about "I"

 

[charismaticlady]

Because you claimed to be beyond what the word of God says is obligatory, and thus beyond what Paul says is necessary.

Oh my, just squeaking by are you? I can't relate. I don't believe Wesley would either.

God spoke to me in 2000 and told me He was giving me the office of Teacher. That also means I am held to a higher level of obedience. And I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. My conscience is clear. That is what Paul said of himself who also held an office even higher than mine.

 

[charismaticlady]

@TibiasDad

I'm concerned about you. Jesus said, "you shall be made perfect, as My Father in heaven is perfect. And Peter said of Jesus, "Be holy, for I am holy. And you think it is best to do the bare minimum, just what may be necessary and obligatory?????

 

[TibiasDad]

@TibiasDad

I'm concerned about you. Jesus said, "you shall be made perfect, as My Father in heaven is perfect. And Peter said of Jesus, "Be holy, for I am holy. And you think it is best to do the bare minimum, just what may be necessary and obligatory?????

Actually, it is a command to “be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect”. (Matt 5:48)* A command is necessary, which sounds an awful lot like an obligation. Holiness is an “all or nothing” point of view; The greatest command is “Love the Lord your God with all…”. That is the core of Wesleyan thought!

And how do you think I advocate for the bare minimum? Jesus says that unless to are willing to hate father and mother, your wife and brothers and sisters you cannot be his disciple. (Lk 14:26)

I have taught and preached this for over 44 years. I was raised in and lived in a holiness family (my grandfather was a holiness pastor), church and school environment for 21 years before entering ministry. I can guarantee you that no holiness preacher would ever espouse a “do the bare minimum” doctrine. It is antithetical to our message!

* Matt 5:48 is about being perfect or wholistic, not particular, in how we love those around us.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

God spoke to me in 2000 and told me He was giving me the office of Teacher.

God did the same for me in 1977; and then he said “study to show yourself approved” (2Tim 2:15), and I went to school for six years and submitted myself to learning from my superiors. After being tested, reviewed and evaluated, I was given the opportunity to teach and preached to others.

That also means I am held to a higher level of obedience.

Leaders are to be held to a higher standard. A higher obligation. (Which is where humility becomes a higher priority.) The level of “obedience” is no different for leaders than others, it just becomes more imperative for leaders than followers to be consistent in their obedience. The obedience is still obligatory; just ask those who follow them! (That’s why ministers who fall into adultery are criticized so publicly and ostracized. Lay people are not held to such public scrutiny for the same infraction.)

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

Because you claimed to be beyond what the word of God says is obligatory, and thus beyond what Paul says is necessary.

And how do you think I advocate for the bare minimum?

If you think I advocate for more than what Paul says is necessary, you must believe in less than I do, and are showing it with your accusations.

 

[TibiasDad]

If you think I advocate for more than what Paul says is necessary, you must believe in less than I do, and are showing it with your accusations.

How can you go beyond giving all to God? A slave has no rights, no autonomy. We are either a slave to sin (Rom 7) or a slave to righteousness. (Rom 8). This is all that I am saying. We are all in or not all in.

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

How can you go beyond giving all to God? A slave has no rights, no autonomy. We are either a slave to sin (Rom 7) or a slave to righteousness. (Rom 8). This is all that I am saying. We are all in or not all in.

Doug

Except that is NOT what you have been saying, nor what you implied. But, finally we are getting somewhere on the same page.

 

[TibiasDad]

But, finally we are getting somewhere on the same page.

I’m all for progress…so now what?

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

I’m all for progress…so now what?

Doug

I don't know, and I cannot remember what we were talking about before this little detour. If you do, ask me something.

Hey, wait a minute. If you are giving 'all' how was I claiming to give more?

Here is what you said: Because you claimed to be beyond what the word of God says is obligatory, and thus beyond what Paul says is necessary.

 

[TibiasDad]

I don't know, and I cannot remember what we were talking about before this little detour. If you do, ask me something.

Hey, wait a minute. If you are giving 'all' how was I claiming to give more?

Here is what you said: Because you claimed to be beyond what the word of God says is obligatory, and thus beyond what Paul says is necessary.

My point was that to “be beyond obligatory” might mean that you’ve already done that which is necessary. But this doesn’t negate that the thing that is ‘necessary’ is an obligation. Some things are obligatory! You cannot be beyond doing what is an obligation. We have an obligation to obey, but it is not to the sinful nature, but rather the Spirit. (Rom 8:12-13)

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

My point was that to “be beyond obligatory” might mean that you’ve already done that which is necessary. But this doesn’t negate that the thing that is ‘necessary’ is an obligation. Some things are obligatory! You cannot be beyond doing what is an obligation. We have an obligation to obey, but it is not to the sinful nature, but rather the Spirit. (Rom 8:12-13)

Doug

What "sinful nature"?

 

[TibiasDad]

What "sinful nature"?

Rom 8:12-13
12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Flesh means the “sinful nature” or sin living within us that makes us prone to sinning.


Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

Rom 8:12-13
12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Flesh means the “sinful nature” or sin living within us that makes us prone to sinning.


Doug

Many so-called Christians have never been baptized in the Holy Spirit and find themselves battling with their flesh - the old man Romans 6:5-7. But those baptized with the Holy Spirit are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God indwells in them. And those who do not have the Spirit of Christ do not belong to Him. Romans 8:9.

Wesleyan are not cessationists are they? I haven't thought so, but thought I would check and see about now. Today John Wesley would turn over in his grave to see practicing homosexuals at the pulpit teaching, no less!!!!

 

[TibiasDad]

Many so-called Christians have never been baptized in the Holy Spirit and find themselves battling with their flesh - the old man Romans 6:5-7.

All believers have the Spirit within them; that’s how they are born again.

But those baptized with the Holy Spirit are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God indwells in them.

All believers are in the Spirit, again, because they are born again and alive in Christ. Paul’s message in Romans 6 is that all believers have been set free of the control of the sin nature/power of sin, and therefore, do not have to obey the old man and sin.

And those who do not have the Spirit of Christ do not belong to Him. Romans 8:9.

Again, you cannot be born again without the Spirit. The infilling of the Spirit is a secondary event- this is why Wesleyan thought calls this a second work of grace- that empowers people for service.

Wesleyan are not cessationists are they?
I haven't thought so, but thought I would check and see about now.

Generally speaking, most do not believe in tongues, but I would not be one of them. It is not necessarily the same for all the gifts of the Spirit.

Today John Wesley would turn over in his grave to see practicing homosexuals at the pulpit teaching, no less!!!!

No doubt! But that would not be very likely in conservative Wesleyan churches. The UMC has left Wesleyan theology far behind in many cases.


Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

All believers have the Spirit within them; that’s how they are born again.

Not all knowers about Jesus are actual followers of Jesus. They may even go to a church every week but that could be for many reasons such as earning their way into heaven or just habit.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

All believers are in the Spirit, again, because they are born again and alive in Christ. Paul’s message in Romans 6 is that all believers have been set free of the control of the sin nature/power of sin, and therefore, do not have to obey the old man and sin.

Again, only those who are natural followers of Jesus actually are His. Those who have an active sin nature are not.

Again, you cannot be born again without the Spirit. The infilling of the Spirit is a secondary event- this is why Wesleyan thought calls this a second work of grace- that empowers people for service.

The evidence of being born again of the Spirit is a new nature that cannot break the commandments of God. 1 John 3:9. This is the first event, not the second. There is a secondary event for service, but the taking away of sin from our nature is being born again and first.

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Generally speaking, most do not believe in tongues, but I would not be one of them. It is not necessarily the same for all the gifts of the Spirit.

Though speaking in tongues is real and an outward sign, it can be faked by anyone. If someone really wants to know if they are actually born again they need just ask themselves if they always receive what they pray for.

No doubt! But that would not be very likely in conservative Wesleyan churches. The UMC has left Wesleyan theology far behind in many cases.

Yes, as did mine.