Who is the creator

[charismaticlady]

The sin nature cannot be cleansed, it must be done away with (Rom 6:6), replaced, removed. The Wesleyan tradition, of which I am a part, calls this entire sanctification. We will always be capable of sin, but the heart’s desires can be set free from sin’s control so that “we are no longer obligated to the sinful nature” but we must choose who we will follow, the Spirit or the sinful nature. (Rom 8:12-13)


Doug

That is true and what I meant. Jesus TAKES AWAY our sin. No where did I say Jesus cleanses our nature. No, it is recreated after the old was crucified and a new nature is resurrected/recreated and the new nature is clean, John 15:3. It is from our nature that Jesus takes away our sin. We now, if born again of the Spirit, have a clean nature allowing us to partake of the divine nature of God. The clean nature is a new creation by Jesus the Author of our faith.

Doug, I love John Wesley and believe he is actually who Jesus foretold in Revelation 3:4. I have a couple books about him and his sermons. But, I admit I don't know what he believed or wrote on the sin nature. I just know what God has taught me after praying that all doctrines of man be wiped from my mind, and for the Spirit of Truth to teach me the true meaning of His Word. He answered that prayer and has been teaching me a mind-blowing Supernatural doctrine that the Bible ACTUALLY teaches without errors. Jesus does it all. It is not by our choice, but by our nature. That means desires which is why 1 John 3:9 says we CANNOT SIN. I certainly hope that Weslyans don't also add the word, practice, to God's inerrant Word. Once you know the type of sin chapter 3 is talking about, that is ridiculous. For instance, I don't practice murder, but I may slip up once in a while. Adding the word practice means it remains possible! NO! You cannot because you have NO DESIRE in you, because the sin nature is no longer there! It has been replaced by the Author of our faith.

So, I disagree that Jesus failed in taking away the sin from our nature, so that we always have a sin nature and must choose the Spirit or the sin nature to follow. Wesley was very much against Calvinism and the teachings from the beginning of the Reformation. In Jesus' letter to Sardis, He also said in verse 2, "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die." Do you know that the Catholic Church, Thyatira, recognized that God sees sin in two categories, (mortal - sins unto death, and venial - sins not unto death/slight imperfections) according to Scripture, but those at the beginning of the Reformation put all sin together and taught "sin is sin" which has, it seems by your statements, even is taught by today's Weslyans. This error causes them to misinterpret 1 John 1:7 that Jesus cleanses us from even past, present and future murder if we walk in the Spirit when it isn't even possible for us to do.

By the way, sanctification is complete when we are first justified, unless you also believe we are constantly being justified. That is of our PAST sins unto death 2 Pt.1:9.

Jesus as the Finisher of our faith goes on to the process called "glorification" (not sanctification 1 Cor. 6:11), becoming conformed to the image of Christ, the King of Glory. Read John 17:20-23. Romans 8:29-30. Notice seeing as being set apart (santified) is the same as justified, verse 30 doesn't even mention it. 30 "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Blasphemous Calvinism teaches we will not be glorified until after we die, not knowing that we REMAIN in the heart condition we die in. Rev. 22:11. That is why they teach we will always be sinners, and that glorification has to do with our dead bodies where they say sin originates! They also say Jesus came to deliver us from the penalty of our sins, instead of from both types if sin separately! Unbelievable!

In the next verse after John 15:3 "you are clean" has to do with what Jesus works in us as the Finisher of our faith - glorification. It has to do with maturing all the fruit of the Spirit as we abide in Him. THAT is what the type of sins are that are continuously being cleansed by walking in the Spirit in 1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." The only sin left in us when born of the Spirit and the seed of the Father are the slight imperfections from immature fruit that Jesus perfects and matures in us in the process of glorification. It is not us that does the maturing by choice, but God in us.

 

[TibiasDad]

That means desires which is why 1 John 3:9 says we CANNOT SIN.

The term “cannot” should be used in the sense that after I am married, I cannot continue dating other women. Now that we are born of God, we cannot keep sinning and be of God.

This aligns with Paul’s words in Romans 8:12-13 that I quoted earlier:

12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

The only sin left in us when born of the Spirit and the seed of the Father are the slight imperfections from immature fruit that Jesus perfects and matures in us in the process of glorification. It is not us that does the maturing by choice, but God in us.

Our choice to yield to the work of God is completely necessary, but not causative. God does the work of cleansing but we must allow him to do so.

Ironically, your statement above is bordering on the monergism of Calvinistic thinking, which eliminates the need for human will to be involved.

Recall Jesus’s words toward Jerusalem’s leadership when he said, “How often did I desire to gather you like a hen gathers her chicks, but you were not willing!”(Matt 23:37)


Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

The term “cannot” should be used in the sense that after I am married, I cannot continue dating other women. Now that we are born of God, we cannot keep sinning and be of God.

This aligns with Paul’s words in Romans 8:12-13 that I quoted earlier:

12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.


Doug

Not at all! It is so much more than obligation. You are putting us in charge of our own faith, where it is Jesus who is the Author and Finisher of our faith, Himself! The truth of it all being in God's hands is not really taught in most of the Church. It is not us, let any man shall boast. What the Church seems to deny is the supernaturalness of our conversion. ("For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the POWER OF GOD to salvation, to anyone who believes.") Our nature is literally recreated. Even repentance is not our "turning away from sin." That was impossible with a fully functioning sin nature we have until born again of the powerful Spirit. Before Christ we would always revert back to our sin nature that was always in opposition to the laws of God - mind vs. the flesh - that was the case in the Old Testament that is pictured in Romans 7:14-25. That Old Covenant reality has been taken away. That is why Jesus completely frees us from sin by taking away that desire to sin and writing His laws on our nature, so that we naturally desire righteousness, instead of sin AND are able to partake of the DIVINE NATURE of God. Jesus makes it easy to be righteous. That is why He said this truth, "My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.

 

[charismaticlady]

Our choice to yield to the work of God is completely necessary, but not causative. God does the work of cleansing but we must allow him to do so.

Ironically, your statement above is bordering on the monergism of Calvinistic thinking, which eliminates the need for human will to be involved.

Recall Jesus’s words toward Jerusalem’s leadership when he said, “How often did I desire to gather you like a hen gathers her chicks, but you were not willing!”(Matt 23:37)


Doug

I don't study Calvinism. But what I do know about it, I hate. The Church Age of Sardis is the period of the Reformation in Rev. 3. Jesus said of it, "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." That is speaking of Calvinism and Luther's "Sin Boldly" in stark contrast of Paul's warning, "Shall we sin so grace may abound? Certainly not!"

I study the Word. It says that Jesus, alone, is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Before faith, we can have a knowledge and belief of Who Jesus is and what He demands, but we cannot succeed with just wanting to be righteous. Even our repentance is short-lived when we still have a sin nature pulling us back into sin. Calvinists do not even claim we can have a desire to be righteous before "regeneration." They have the cart so far in front of the horse they will never get out of the ditch!

 

[TibiasDad]

Not at all! It is so much more than obligation.

Not according to Paul. Paul says “we have an obligation, but it is not to the sinful nature…” Walking in faith is following the Spirit’s lead and not the sinful nature’s. There are always consequences to not keeping an obligation. We must continue to believe, for “without faith we cannot please God.” Heb 11:1

Our role is to believe, to trust in God’s promises; God does the heavy lifting to keep his promises.

Doug

 

[Keiw1]

No translation on Earth has God for satan at 2 Cor 4:4, they all have god. Same word given to the Word at John 1:1.

 

[TibiasDad]

I don't study Calvinism. But what I do know about it, I hate.

“Know thy enemy…” or know your defeat. I don’t teach or preach Calvinism because I’ve studied it and found it lacking.

The Church Age of Sardis is the period of the Reformation in Rev. 3.

No it isn’t.

Jesus said of it, "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead."

No he didn’t! He said, “I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.”

That is speaking of Calvinism and Luther's "Sin Boldly" in stark contrast of Paul's warning, "Shall we sin so grace may abound? Certainly not!"

As errant as Luther’s “Sin Boldly” was and truly contrary to the warning Paul gives us as you have stated, that is not specifically what Rev 3 is about!

Rev 3 is about those who are Christian in name only, but do not live the gospel. Those who think joining a church or going to church every week makes them a Christian. Jesus was saying to them that he knows “your deeds” or your way of daily living, incomplete or unfinished. They were not Christian in character!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

No translation on Earth has God for satan at 2 Cor 4:4, they all have god. Same word given to the Word at John 1:1.

4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

ἐν οἷς ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος
The god of this age
This is about Satan who “has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel…”


Doug

 

[FreeInChrist]

Not according to Paul. Paul says “we have an obligation, but it is not to the sinful nature…” Walking in faith is following the Spirit’s lead and not the sinful nature’s. There are always consequences to not keeping an obligation. We must continue to believe, for “without faith we cannot please God.” Heb 11:1

Our role is to believe, to trust in God’s promises; God does the heavy lifting to keep his promises.

Doug

Just a side note. It may be called an obligation in the bible.... but for me it is a privilege to be able and allowed to do so.

 

[charismaticlady]

Not according to Paul. Paul says “we have an obligation, but it is not to the sinful nature…” Walking in faith is following the Spirit’s lead and not the sinful nature’s. There are always consequences to not keeping an obligation. We must continue to believe, for “without faith we cannot please God.” Heb 11:1

Our role is to believe, to trust in God’s promises; God does the heavy lifting to keep his promises.

Doug

Obligation has a negative connotation, and against our nature. (I hope your wife doesn't see what you said.) That is NOT the new nature that, IF born again of the Spirit, we have in Christ. It is all joy! I feel sorry for you if that has been your experience. It is not mine; it has been freedom!

 

[TibiasDad]

Obligation has a negative connotation, and against our nature. (I hope your wife doesn't see what you said.) That is NOT the new nature that, IF born again of the Spirit, we have in Christ. It is all joy! I feel sorry for you if that has been your experience. It is not mine; it has been freedom!

It’s only negative if it is contrary to your desires. I have an obligation to my wife, but it is not burdensome; but it is necessary!

Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

It’s only negative if it is contrary to your desires. I have an obligation to my wife, but it is not burdensome; but it is necessary!

Doug

'Desires' is the key word, Doug. Do you know the difference in the desires of a natural human to one that is born again of the Spirit? THAT is what we are talking about! It is the difference between a 'sin' nature and one that has been recreated by Jesus.

 

[Keiw1]

I merely quoted scripture that says that Jesus Christ is God; would you prefer I post them in Greek?


Doug

Jesus is 100% clear at John 17:3-- The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.) We all must choose who we believe.

4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

ἐν οἷς ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος
The god of this age
This is about Satan who “has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel…”


Doug

Yes, and the true living God( Jehovah) is mentioned in the paragraph as well= given a different Greek word=God--thus The word given to both the word and satan=god. Its why there is a difference. Catholicism put a capitol G God at John 1:1 to fit their false council teachings.

 

[TibiasDad]

'Desires' is the key word, Doug. Do you know the difference in the desires of a natural human to one that is born again of the Spirit? THAT is what we are talking about! It is the difference between a 'sin' nature and one that has been recreated by Jesus.

Again, the obligation of the “sinner” is bound to sin, but the obligation of the believer has been set free from the power of sin (Rom 6:20-22, 8:1-4).

But we were not slaves by choice to sin, rather we were enslaved by our original parents. However, we were freed from the law of sin and death by Christ to be free to choose for ourselves who we will serve, which is why Paul used the term “obligation”, for our choice between following the rule of the sinful, or the Spirit in Rome 8:12-13,

12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

This is illustrated by Paul to Timothy in 2Tim 4:9Do your best to come to me quickly, 10for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus is 100% clear at John 17:3-- The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.) We all must choose who we believe.

Yes, and the true living God( Jehovah) is mentioned in the paragraph as well= given a different Greek word=God--thus The word given to both the word and satan=god. Its why there is a difference. Catholicism put a capitol G God at John 1:1 to fit their false council teachings.

It is not, I repeat, a different word; it is the same word in a different Greek case. The first instance, Theos, referring to Satan is the nominative case, indicating the subject of the sentence/clause, while the second reference, Theou, is in relation to Christ and is in the Genitive case showing Christ to be the “image of God”. In other words to see Christ is to see God in flesh.

As for John 17:3, Jesus is correct, Yahweh is the only true God, that’s why he called himself “I am”, ego eimi, in John 8:58, and said “The Father and I are one” in John 10:30. Both statements caused the Jewish leaders to pick up stones to stone him. (I would note that the only legal reason they could stone him was for blaspheming “the Name” by applying it as his own!)


Doug

 

[charismaticlady]

Again, the obligation of the “sinner” is bound to sin, but the obligation of the believer has been set free from the power of sin (Rom 6:20-22, 8:1-4).

But we were not slaves by choice to sin, rather we were enslaved by our original parents. However, we were freed from the law of sin and death by Christ to be free to choose for ourselves who we will serve, which is why Paul used the term “obligation”, for our choice between following the rule of the sinful, or the Spirit in Rome 8:12-13,

12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

This is illustrated by Paul to Timothy in 2Tim 4:9Do your best to come to me quickly, 10for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica.

Doug

I believe it all comes down to maturity. Whether we still are immature in Christ and must remind ourselves to abide in Him, and force ourselves to stay away from evil desires, or our Creator has finished his maturing work in us and we no longer stumble, 2 Peter 1:5-11. I haven't been immature for a long, long time and just no longer relate to your sense of 'obligation.'

Keep abiding in Christ. That is the key.

Isaiah 54:5

 

[FreeInChrist]

Jesus is 100% clear at John 17:3-- The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.) We all must choose who we believe.

Yes, and the true living God( Jehovah) is mentioned in the paragraph as well= given a different Greek word=God--thus The word given to both the word and satan=god. Its why there is a difference. Catholicism put a capitol G God at John 1:1 to fit their false council teachings.

Koine Greek - Original wording.

Here is John 1:1 in the original Koine Greek, followed by a clear, simple understandable statements regarding it.
John 1:1 (Koine Greek)

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος,
καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν,
καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Literal rendering:
“In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with the God,
and God was the Word.”

What this actually shows​

• ὁ Θεός (ho Theos) = the God (the Father)
• Θεὸς (Theos) = God (the Word, Jesus)

Greek has no capital letters for meaning — capitalization is a translation decision, not a grammatical rule.

But here is the key:
Every major English translation capitalizes “God” in John 1:1 — except the New World Translation

Translation	John 1:1
KJV	“and the Word was God”
NASB	“and the Word was God”
ESV	“and the Word was God”
NIV	“and the Word was God”
NRSV	“and the Word was God”
NKJV	“and the Word was God”
CSB	“and the Word was God”
NWT	“and the Word was a god”

​

Recap...
John 1:1 in the original Greek says “kai Theos ēn ho Logos” means literally, “and God was the Word.”
Greek has no capital letters, so capitalization is a translation choice.
Every major Bible translation capitalizes “God” in John 1:1 except the New World Translation, which uniquely inserts “a god” to fit its theology.
This is not a linguistic necessity .....it is a doctrinal decision.

A decision made 1850 give or take years ago before the NWT translation... and I say this because the book of John was written in the 90's CE, by the apostle John, to the c1950 when by one man the accepted translation was changed, to suit himself. No wonder the other people in the committee did not want their names involved in the translation SMH.

 

[charismaticlady]

Jesus is 100% clear at John 17:3-- The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.) We all must choose who we believe.

Yes, and the true living God( Jehovah) is mentioned in the paragraph as well= given a different Greek word=God--thus The word given to both the word and satan=god. Its why there is a difference. Catholicism put a capitol G God at John 1:1 to fit their false council teachings.

You are lucky that Jesus said that saying things against Him will be forgiven. But it certainly angers us who love Him.

 

[TibiasDad]

I haven't been immature for a long, long time and just no longer relate to your sense of 'obligation.'

Oh the irony…


Doug