Who are the dead and what does it mean to be dead in Calvinism ?

[Ladodgers6]

It’s funny to listen to people say I don’t understand Calvinism when all the non Calvinists I debated on CARM the past 20 years know for sure I was a Calvinist , yourself included . @sethproton , @Rockson @TibiasDad and @PeanutGallery know I was lol. And Travelah too. TomL knows he just hasn’t come to the new forum yet. I emailed him yesterday. I miss that guy

I remember Civic but your comments do not reflect it. Like it or not. I asked you a question and get no answer but convoluted replies. So, I'll ask you again. How is a sinner justified before a Holy God?

BTW, as a Classical Calvinist way back in the day, I taught you a lot of it. But now reading your comments you are far from it. Just my observation.

 

[Rockson]

I believe in the 3 forms of unity among others.

I'm like a simple fisherman like Jesus disciples of old. What in the world do you mean by saying 3 forms of unity?

Forgive me but I don't need your approval, right?

You do when it comes to what I actually said, "....at least where I can accept what you say."

I beg to differ. I have read and studying the Doctrines of Grace way far longer than you. Getting your information on Calvinism from 3rd party sites is not the right way of getting to the truth.

Ladodgers you know nothing about me. I've talked directly to Calvinists for years and years and years. I've heard what THEY'VE said.

Huh? What on earth are talking about? This comment is so convoluted, I don't know what you are saying? I'll stick to Scripture, Hosea 6:7 states explicitly that Adam was in a Covenant with God, period!​

You have never answered my question though. How does showing Adam and Eve have a covenant really help your Calvinist position? I've already told you that ALL believe God told them if you do this I'll do this etc. It is you who claim they had free will and any way you cut it I'd hold that you can't really reconcile that with your Calvinism.

Again you are confusing Hyper-Calvinism and Classical Calvinism.​

Well let me just say that I hope others aren't taken in and accept that they're really not the same.

​

 

[Rockson]

But something just hit me, just now. So, you are suggesting in your position that things in this universe happens randomly without intellect or design?​

You statement here is just way too vague. God has set forth his perimeters and some things are by design and he will ultimately force an end result at the end of the age. He allows and permits a great many things of people making decisions with free will, and how salvation will work, not who will be saved but how. And your use of randomly....it's not random if men make decisions.

That things spin out of control into chaos and darkness, nothing to stop it?​

I've never said God doesn't assert any control. If men wanted to blow up the Earth now and wipe it out we'd certainly not be surprised to see God say NOPE, not right now. Such doesn't mean however that God micro manages every act and movement on the Earth. Such is the problem of where Calvinism takes one. It has God ordaining the most insidious evil acts which I'll hesitate to mention taking place on the Earth.

The problem doesn't lie with Classical Calvinism, but with your position, that can't rectify how Adam fell?​

Your clouding in mystic a simple concept. Adam and Eve had a simple suggestion take hold of their minds which they didn't cast down and that God was somehow holding back from them to be like God. Nobody has to rectify anything. It's so very clear in Gen 1-3 and we don't need to create some deep convoluted theology which takes us a way from simplicity.

Or that the fall didn't affect anything and people are basically good and will go to heaven based on their good merits. You have a lofty view of fallen man.....​

Hold it. Stop already! How in the world do you put that together that I or other non Calvinists somehow believe people will go to heaven on good merits??? Why should you even come close to claim such a thing which is DEFINATLEY NOT TRUE.

Do you want to speak for me, because obviously this is the only tactic you have left in your bag of tricks.​

You might really want to reassess your position. You've thrown out in your writings here that I believe a person is saved by their good merits and you don't even seek to detail what you're meaning by that in regard to myself. I think that's something you really need to consider dialing back big time.

​

 

[Predestined]

It’s funny to listen to people say I don’t understand Calvinism when all the non Calvinists I debated on CARM the past 20 years know for sure I was a Calvinist , yourself included . @sethproton , @Rockson @TibiasDad and @PeanutGallery know I was lol. And Travelah too. TomL knows he just hasn’t come to the new forum yet. I emailed him yesterday. I miss that guy

And predestined knows for sure

 

[Ladodgers6]

I'm like a simple fisherman like Jesus disciples of old. What in the world do you mean by saying 3 forms of unity?

And I am the dumbest Christian in Christendom. I know my role, but I am armed with Scripture. I care about the facts and truth of God's word. You can't google it?

You do when it comes to what I actually said, "....at least where I can accept what you say."

So you too are going to brag like Civic?

Ladodgers you know nothing about me. I've talked directly to Calvinists for years and years and years. I've heard what THEY'VE said.

LoL..and still you lack the knowledge to refute it. The reason why you can disprove it son, is because it is the Doctrines of Grace taught in Scripture. You guys still have not even provided any substance to this debate. I have studied all sides of these debates, your position of Free-Willers is a man-made, man-centered theology. Your theology falls under the previous condemned heresies that the churches throughout history has rejected. I'll prove it through your own words. Define how a sinner is saved in your theology?​

You have never answered my question though. How does showing Adam and Eve have a covenant really help your Calvinist position? I've already told you that ALL believe God told them if you do this I'll do this etc. It is you who claim they had free will and any way you cut it I'd hold that you can't really reconcile that with your Calvinism.

Well let me just say that I hope others aren't taken in and accept that they're really not the same.

Is this your way of dodging my request for you to share what you know about Classical Covenant Theology? I did know you would try to dance around it. But no problem I love sharing Covenant Theology. What is troubling though is that you guys condemn Covenant Theology although you guys know nothing of it. How can an ill-informed person make any sound judgement without the wisdom or knowledge of the facts?

God after creating upright and good, God made a Covenant of Works with Adam. He possessed the ability to fulfill this Covenant or breach it. This Covenant came with conditions and stipulations; blessings & curses; Promises & threats; access or exile; life or death! This is Covenantal language where God walks between to halves of a cow to demonstrate the ramifications of breaching the Covenant. Now, I will not entirely spell this out for you. You can do your own heavy lifting and read and research it for yourself. God appointed Adam Lord over all that he created, to guard it and protect this temple and to multiply.

Adam breached the Covenant by One Act of Obedience, which brought sanctions upon himself and all his progeny. Adam was not coerced by God to breach it this Covenant, but was deceived by the serpent; calling God a liar that they would not surely die, but instead would be like gods! Adam's sin was the root of his fall, not like some suggest that God coerced Adam against his to sin. But by his own Free-Will Adam chose to disobey God's commandment. And sanctions were rendered and executed. Adam was exiled from God and paradise, into the outer darkness to suffer and die. He was a deadman walking the green mile.

But by God's sheer Grace and Mercy he immediately made another Covenant, telling Adam & Eve that he will send a Promised Seed that will save them from their sins! This is called the Covenant of Grace in that a Second Adam will come and restore the broken Covenant of Works with his perfect law keeping; to not abolish the Law, but to fulfill it (Matt. 5:17). He was obedient even unto death for the sake of God's people. This is a loving act of divine intervention to redeem sinners! This Covenant is not some random rescue plan that hopefully works out. Not to make salvation possible in hopes that we allow God to help us, but a Promise, an Oath, a Covenant, his Word that he will redeem those whom he gives to Christ to save! And nobody can change this or stop this, or break God's word! This is the Gospel that is an announcement of what he accomplished in Christ for the ungodly! The Gospel is not a 12 step directions for getting yourself saved or DIY project that Christ left unfinished and left up to us to complete! It is finished Christ says on the Cross that afternoon over 2000 years ago. He is our righteousness, sanctification and redemption, and this is the only place we can boast, in him and his cross!

This is where we find Grace, Mercy, Love, Joy, assurance, peace of conscience, life, gratitude, adoption, reconciliation, especially a Father!​

2 Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

 

[Rockson]

And I am the dumbest Christian in Christendom. I know my role, but I am armed with Scripture.

You are aware that cults are likewise ARMED with scripture as well correct?

So you too are going to brag like Civic?

I've said what I've said to you. There was NO bragging about anything.

LoL..and still you lack the knowledge to refute it.​

And I'd let other readers decide that....and not you exclusively.

I did know you would try to dance around it.​

Sorry Ladodgers but that's rich for a Calvinist like yourself who would say ordaining actions that the WCF says in 3:1 wouldn't mean God does violence to a will. Really though that would be the greatest dance act in the world.

But no problem I love sharing Covenant Theology.​

Good. Go for it. The mic is now yours.

What is troubling though is that you guys condemn Covenant Theology although you guys know nothing of it.​

Please refrain from telling us what you consider we know nothing about and do what you said .....share your thoughts. Thanks.

How can an ill-informed person make any sound judgement without the wisdom or knowledge of the facts?​

Go for it.

God after creating upright and good, God made a Covenant of Works with Adam. He possessed the ability to fulfill this Covenant or breach it.​

As long as you hold by saying this that he had the ability to be obedient, but the fact is you don't. Not really. You, and i repeat YOU have said you agree with the WCF. That states God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: If you say you believe that then you can't believe Adam and Eve had the ability to obey.

This Covenant came with conditions and stipulations; blessings & curses; Promises & threats; access or exile; life or death!​

And I've told you all Christians believe life and death was connected to their actions of their obedience or disobedience. Good news. We all agree!

Adam breached the Covenant by One Act of Obedience, which brought sanctions upon himself and all his progeny. Adam was not coerced by God to breach it this Covenant, but was deceived by the serpent; calling God a liar that they would not surely die, but instead would be like gods! Adam's sin was the root of his fall, not like some suggest that God coerced Adam against his to sin. But by his own Free-Will Adam chose to disobey God's commandment.​

Agreed but I refuse to allow that the WCF says that and you say you believe it. If you believe God ordains whatsoever comes to pass before they do and seeing we know Adam and Eve sinned then there's no way you can say they had freedom of will to obey. Nope I'll never change on that and I trust readers won't as well.

And sanctions were rendered and executed. Adam was exiled from God and paradise, into the outer darkness to suffer and die. He was a deadman walking the green mile.​

Correct. Adam and Eve died spiritually that day. What spiritual death actually is where Calvinists and Non Calvinists hold different beliefs. I'd hold that the Non-Calvinist position is more in line with scripture when it comes to Total Depravity.

. He was obedient even unto death for the sake of God's people.​

For the sake of ALL humanity. All could choose upon hearing the gospel. God reconciled the world unto himself but men must now reconcile to God. 2 Cor 5:19

This is a loving act of divine intervention to redeem sinners! This Covenant is not some random rescue plan that hopefully works out. Not to make salvation possible in hopes that we allow God to help us, but a Promise, an Oath, a Covenant, his Word that he will redeem those whom he gives to Christ to save!​

And here's where you go off the rails as Calvinists do. You run off claiming this is an absolute thing of force now where God decides who will be saved and who will not by changing his good, kind and gracious nature which doesn't show favoritism from one to another. Agreed you don't say this directly above but it seems that's what you're implying it's not something that hopefully will work out.

And nobody can change this or stop this, or break God's word!​

Depends on what you're trying to assert by saying "hopefully works out" that it's not that.

This is the Gospel that is an announcement of what he accomplished in Christ for the ungodly! The Gospel is not a 12 step directions for getting yourself saved or DIY project that Christ left unfinished and left up to us to complete!​

And I'm sure most of all Non Calvinists agree with this. Where the problem is, is a Calvinists insistence that if one merely receives the grace of God and it's taught that's something we must do Calvinists go off the rail by making false accusations that one is trying to be saved by works.

​

 

[civic]

So you too are going to brag like Civic?

​

Why are you discussing me with another poster. Try addressing the poster you are quoting and discuss scripture or their argument. We are here to discuss scripture, defend our beliefs and not talk about other people or put anyone down, insult them, mock them, belittle them, make fun of them etc.....

If you want to debate me we will begin with God and work our way to doctrines. Theology is the study of God and we will begin there with the nature and character of God.

If you agree then I will start a thread in the debate forum.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Why are you discussing me with another poster. Try addressing the poster you are quoting and discuss scripture or their argument. We are here to discuss scripture, defend our beliefs and not talk about other people or put anyone down, insult them, mock them, belittle them, make fun of them etc.....

If you want to debate me we will begin with God and work our way to doctrines. Theology is the study of God and we will begin there with the nature and character of God.

If you agree then I will start a thread in the debate forum.

Finally, yes I agree, let's debate. BTW also take your own advice. Start the thread, thanks.

 

[civic]

Finally, yes I agree, let's debate. Start the thread, thanks.

I’ll start it after I get off work

 

[Ladodgers6]

You are aware that cults are likewise ARMED with scripture as well correct?

Cults twist and distort the truth, right?

I've said what I've said to you. There was NO bragging about anything.

Well Rockson, you guys provide no substance on these topics, just baseless accusations and convoluted comments. Then you are guys get start stating what I believe and why I believe, right? I thought we were going to have an honest and respectable debate. This was what I was hoping for. I am still waiting for you to provide what you know about Covenant Theology. Nothing!​

And I'd let other readers decide that....and not you exclusively.

Again, no substance, I am trying to get you to debate these topics. Are you going to debate the topics?

Sorry Ladodgers but that's rich for a Calvinist like yourself who would say ordaining actions that the WCF says in 3:1 wouldn't mean God does violence to a will. Really though that would be the greatest dance act in the world.

More 2 step. I would appreciate you more if you just said, I need to brush up on it and get back to you. I would have been fine with that. But again round and round we go, right? I believe I am wasting my time. This dialogue is not edifying or good for the Christian growth, I believe I am going to bid you a farewell after I address the rest of your post here.

Good. Go for it. The mic is now yours.

This was your opportunity to speak, not mine, I have already presented my case.

Please refrain from telling us what you consider we know nothing about and do what you said .....share your thoughts. Thanks.

Sorry, but I can retort to caricatures and bearing false witness. Because as I try to clarify that you are confusing Hyper-Calvinism and Classical Calvinism you continue with purposely misrepresenting my position. Sorry but I am going to speak up and set the record straight.

Go for it.

As long as you hold by saying this that he had the ability to be obedient, but the fact is you don't. Not really. You, and i repeat YOU have said you agree with the WCF. That states God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: If you say you believe that then you can't believe Adam and Eve had the ability to obey.

And I've told you all Christians believe life and death was connected to their actions of their obedience or disobedience. Good news. We all agree!

Agreed but I refuse to allow that the WCF says that and you say you believe it. If you believe God ordains whatsoever comes to pass before they do and seeing we know Adam and Eve sinned then there's no way you can say they had freedom of will to obey. Nope I'll never change on that and I trust readers won't as well.

Correct. Adam and Eve died spiritually that day. What spiritual death actually is where Calvinists and Non Calvinists hold different beliefs. I'd hold that the Non-Calvinist position is more in line with scripture when it comes to Total Depravity.

For the sake of ALL humanity. All could choose upon hearing the gospel. God reconciled the world unto himself but men must now reconcile to God. 2 Cor 5:19

And here's where you go off the rails as Calvinists do. You run off claiming this is an absolute thing of force now where God decides who will be saved and who will not by changing his good, kind and gracious nature which doesn't show favoritism from one to another. Agreed you don't say this directly above but it seems that's what you're implying it's not something that hopefully will work out.

Depends on what you're trying to assert by saying "hopefully works out" that it's not that.

And I'm sure most of all Non Calvinists agree with this. Where the problem is, is a Calvinists insistence that if one merely receives the grace of God and it's taught that's something we must do Calvinists go off the rail by making false accusations that one is trying to be saved by works.

With the rest of your comments, there's no need for me to response, no substance, just the same old tactic of baseless accusations that one thinks makes their case, but far from it.

You have a great day, and as I said I bid you a farewell.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Finally, yes I agree, let's debate. BTW also take your own advice. Start the thread, thanks.

Civic question for you. You texted me an apology, which I find to be genuine and I accepted it. Then you come on my forum to recruit members, create sock puppets accounts to hide yourself so that you can continue to recruit members. You guys use PM's in doing this. How is this Christ-Like behavior? Was your apology just a smoke screen? I text you and call you but I get ghosted, why? You purposely and biasedly bear false witness and lie about Classical Calvinism. Can you explain?​

 

[civic]

Civic question for you. You texted me an apology, which I find to be genuine and I accepted it. Then you come on my forum to recruit members, create sock puppets accounts to hide yourself so that you can continue to recruit members. You guys use PM's in doing this. How is this Christ-Like behavior? Was your apology just a smoke screen? I text you and call you but I get ghosted, why? You purposely and biasedly bear false witness and lie about Classical Calvinism. Can you explain?​

I have no soc puppets . I only had a couple on CARM .

So get your facts straight .

I thought it was carbons forum

No texts , no calls from you .

@Administrator see above post . Thank you

 

[Ladodgers6]

I have no soc puppets . I only had a couple on CARM .

So get your facts straight .

I thought it was carbons forum

It's both of ours. And I don't believe you.

 

[civic]

It's both of ours. And I don't believe you.

It doesn’t matter . I’m civic both here and your forum you banned me on .

The administrator here and I are on the same page and have our house in order unlike your leadership you banned on your own forum . We are united unlike you . So I would stop casting stones and look in the mirror .

I’ll give you one last chance to debate me tonight . Until then I’m not responding to your insults .


hmmmm

 

[Ladodgers6]

It doesn’t matter . I’m civic both here and your forum you banned me on .

hmmmm

I didn't ban you, get your facts right!

 

[civic]

I didn't ban you, get your facts right!

You said it’s your forum right not carbons ?

 

[Ladodgers6]

It doesn’t matter . I’m civic both here and your forum you banned me on .

The administrator here and I are on the same page and have our house in order unlike your leadership you banned on your own forum . We are united unlike you . So I would stop casting stones and look in the mirror .

I’ll give you one last chance to debate me tonight . Until then I’m not responding to your insults .


hmmmm

LoL...always acting Christ-Like right Civic? The reason why you keep trying to sneak unto my forum is because we have more member than you do. We have 144, you have 44, go figure, right. I'll pass on your invite, and bid you a farewell.

 

[civic]

LoL...always acting Christ-Like right Civic? The reason why you keep trying to sneak unto my forum is because we have more member than you do. We have 144, you have 44, go figure, right. I'll pass on your invite, and bid you a farewell.

I don’t care about your forum it’s worse than CARM and between our old forum and this one we have 140 plus members . I’m more about quality not quantity.

Why are you here ?

 

[Ladodgers6]

I don’t care about your forum it’s worse than CARM and between our old forum and this one we have 140 plus members . I’m more about quality not quantity

Sure you do, you do know your member count is visible right? Keep on creating those sock puppets, Civic. And I have left you messages and voicemail. I hear your voice, but go ahead and deny it.

 

[civic]

Sure you do, you do know your member count is visible right? Keep on creating those sock puppets, Civic. And I have left you messages and voicemail. I hear your voice, but go ahead and deny it.

No you have not left me any voicemails or texts . I talk with carbon all the time and text him . Are you carbon , is this your undercover soc account ?