What's Love Got To Do With It?

[Pancho Frijoles]

Here are my two cents:

The animal sacrifices under the Law were to atone for the sins of the children of Israel.

The animal sacrifices under the Law were to symbolically atone for the sins of the children of Israel.
As the author of Hebrews admits, animal sacrifices could not erase sins.
Israelites knew this was all symbolic. That's why they did not bother to build hundreds or thousands of tabernacles, one in each village and city, even all across the nations they were living in, and sustain hundreds or thousands of priests, so that they could get prompt forgiveness to their daily sins.

God extends his mercy to the person who comes to Him with a contrite heart, a broken spirit. If you need biblical support, I will give it gladly.

This thread focus on Love as an attribute of God.
If we think that Love requires the shedding of the blood of a calf, goat or sheep in order to forgive, we don't understand what love means.

 

[TomL]

Which Scripture cannot be broken? The one you are quoting, or the one that @TomL is quoting?
Let's think about that.

He refuses to believe

Ephesians 2:11–19 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


And yet God's love was for the whole world, not just Jews

John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

and so Christ was given for the world

John 6:51 (KJV 1900) — 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

and so provide a salvation which is available for the whole world

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Which Scripture cannot be broken? The one you are quoting, or the one that @TomL is quoting?
Let's think about that.

We need reason. We need the Holy Spirit talking to our hearts. We need to observe reality. We need to review history.

We must avoid to get to a position in which we tell our friend:
Friend, you can quote those passages all day, but my passages are the good ones.

The Old Covenant writings of Law, Psalms, and Prophets, i.e. the Hebrew Scripture.
Every Jew knew the Word of God in some part or parts and when Jesus said "Scripture cannot be broken" they understood that nothing could be changed or added to or subtracted from what was already written to and for the Chosen people of God.

God made three salvation covenants with the Hebrew people beginning with Abram, then through Moses, and later what was prophesied by Jeremiah. All three covenants are between God and the Hebrew people Abraham being the first. Then God made covenant with the children of Israel in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle and Moses. Then, Jeremiah's prophecy from God to and for the Hebrew people of a New Covenant would be realized seven hundred years later through a Carpenter named Jesus bar Joseph. All of it was good news from God to the Chosen people of God, a people identified as the children of Israel. All twelve tribes. And there were millions of them waiting generation after generation to when God would act and send forth to the twelve tribes that "Prophet like unto Moses." Their long-awaited King, Messiah, Kinsman-Redeemer and Savior - God's very own Son. Immanuel.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Here are my two cents:

The animal sacrifices under the Law were to symbolically atone for the sins of the children of Israel.

No, those animal deaths were not symbolic nor what Jesus's death. Those sacrifices atoned for one year the sins of the children of Israel. They did this year after year and although it was temporary it was setting up by God the eventual death of God's own Son to atone for the sins of the children of Israel finally and eternally. "Life is in the blood" is not symbolic. Neither was the efficacious atonement of the lamb of God to and for the children of Israel.

As the author of Hebrews admits, animal sacrifices could not erase sins.

I agree. I never said it did "erase" their sins, merely covered them for a time until the calendar called for it again one year later.

Israelites knew this was all symbolic. That's why they did not bother to build hundreds or thousands of tabernacles, one in each village and city, even all across the nations they were living in, and sustain hundreds or thousands of priests, so that they could get prompt forgiveness to their daily sins.

There was only one Tabernacle, and the children of Israel were situated by God surrounding that one Tabernacle. Later, God instructed the building of the Temple and a second Temple for that purpose until Israel's Messiah could be sent to do it finally and eternally in accordance with the Mosaic Covenant Law instructing and guiding it use and purpose.

God extends his mercy to the person who comes to Him with a contrite heart, a broken spirit. If you need biblical support, I will give it gladly.

Keep it biblical. Any interpretation of New Covenant writings that violates Scripture that cannot be broken is to be rejected as false.
And knowing the the three Hebrew covenants are confined to the Hebrew people let's see what Constantinian Gentile theology you come up with.

This thread focus on Love as an attribute of God.
If we think that Love requires the shedding of the blood of a calf, goat or sheep in order to forgive, we don't understand what love means.

I think Eve would know what that love means given that it was probably her pet lamb that God slew right in front of her face to instruct on the sacrificial love of God and the need for a substitutionary sacrifice to satisfy God's requirements of His declared love for His Chosen people the children of Israel. A love He would later prove.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Old Covenant writings of Law, Psalms, and Prophets, i.e. the Hebrew Scripture.
Every Jew knew the Word of God in some part or parts and when Jesus said "Scripture cannot be broken" they understood that nothing could be changed or added to or subtracted from what was already written to and for the Chosen people of God.

I agree with you, jeremiah1five.

God made three salvation covenants with the Hebrew people beginning with Abram, then through Moses, and later what was prophesied by Jeremiah. All three covenants are between God and the Hebrew people Abraham being the first.

Was Abraham a Hebrew? I'm not sure. I would say he was Caldean. But if we considered him Hebrew, we would then have to consider the Arabs Hebrews as well.... futhermore, we should regard as Hebrews the descendants of Cetura through the Middle East are as well.

Now, my friend, you know that God also made a covenant with Noah... and Noah was far from being a Hebrew.

What I am trying to say is that the covenants of God and Israel are very important and special... but God has revealed Himself in many ways to many people. Salvation is not confined to any people on the basis of genetics.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No, those animal deaths were not symbolic nor what Jesus's death. Those sacrifices atoned for one year the sins of the children of Israel.

So, if an Israelite stole a goat from his neighbor, and then repented and confessed his sin and gave back the goat to the owner with a corresponding compensation, did God put him "on hold" until he performed a long and risky trip to Jerusalem Temple some months later?
Or did God forgive his sin based on his Mercy?

When David realizes he has committed murder and adultery, he does not ask God to "cover" his sins temporarily... and he does not rely in the effect (either temporary or permanent) of any sacrifice. He trusts in the mercy of God for a real forgiveness in eloquent terms.

They did this year after year and although it was temporary it was setting up by God the eventual death of God's own Son to atone for the sins of the children of Israel finally and eternally. "Life is in the blood" is not symbolic.

"Life is in the blood" is a symbol appropriate for that time, my friend.
We know that life is not in the blood more than in any other living cell of an organism. That's a fact.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Any interpretation of New Covenant writings that violates Scripture that cannot be broken is to be rejected as false.

I agree.
I invite you to read from the Tanakh how David, after his murder and adultery, expected forgiveness from God.

Have mercy on me, O God,
according to Your lovingkindness;
according to the abundance of Your compassion,
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
and done this evil in Your sight,
so that You are justified when You speak,
and You are blameless when You judge.
5 I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin my mother conceived me.
6 You desire truth in the inward parts,
and in the hidden part You make me to know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,
that the bones that You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
and uphold me with Your willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
and sinners will return to You.
14 Deliver me from blood guiltiness, O God,
God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, You will not despise.
18 Do good to Zion in Your good pleasure;
build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
with burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
then they will offer young bulls on Your altar.

 

[TomL]

The Old Covenant writings of Law, Psalms, and Prophets, i.e. the Hebrew Scripture.
Every Jew knew the Word of God in some part or parts and when Jesus said "Scripture cannot be broken" they understood that nothing could be changed or added to or subtracted from what was already written to and for the Chosen people of God.

God made three salvation covenants with the Hebrew people beginning with Abram, then through Moses, and later what was prophesied by Jeremiah. All three covenants are between God and the Hebrew people Abraham being the first. Then God made covenant with the children of Israel in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle and Moses. Then, Jeremiah's prophecy from God to and for the Hebrew people of a New Covenant would be realized seven hundred years later through a Carpenter named Jesus bar Joseph. All of it was good news from God to the Chosen people of God, a people identified as the children of Israel. All twelve tribes. And there were millions of them waiting generation after generation to when God would act and send forth to the twelve tribes that "Prophet like unto Moses." Their long-awaited King, Messiah, Kinsman-Redeemer and Savior - God's very own Son. Immanuel.

But you have no problem breaking New Testament scriptures

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agree with you, jeremiah1five.

Was Abraham a Hebrew? I'm not sure. I would say he was Caldean. But if we considered him Hebrew, we would then have to consider the Arabs Hebrews as well.... futhermore, we should regard as Hebrews the descendants of Cetura through the Middle East are as well.

No, Abraham was Hebrew, a descendant of Eber who was descendant of Noah.

13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; Gen. 14:13.

I think the Spirit who Authored the Scripture wants it to be known Abraham was Hebrew, a descendant of Eber, whose name means "crossed over" referring to his father who it appears to me was obedient to God who commanded the people to 'scatter' and "fill the earth." A group of them remained together in disobedience to God's command given to Noah and his kids.

Abraham had Ishmael who was of mixed birth but although could be considered part Hebrew whom I think not having the Promises as an inheritance may have rebelled and maintained the Egyptian half of his heritage instead of the Hebrew. He had twelve sons just as Jacob later did. And although Esau was also Hebrew by birth being a grandson of Abraham, the inheritance passed over him, too. But he was blessed of God just the same. Not having inherited the covenant but did receive it seems the blessings for God made him prosperous and he gave the God of His father, Isaac, the credit for his blessings.

But the covenant was a family covenant being passed to Isaac (the son), and then to Jacob (grandson), and then to Jacob's children and their descendants. God sealed this by making a covenant with over three million Hebrews in the desert at the time of Moses and the Tabernacle, a covenant known as the Mosaic Covenant. So, yes, it is through the Abrahamic seed even to this day. But God scattered this people twice before the cross, (Assyria and Babylon), and twice more after the cross (Roman and German 1930s), sending them into Gentile lands to live, and yes, have offspring of mixed heritage. So, to me when Gentiles are being born again in the pages of the New Covenant writings of Matthew to Revelation, I think these are half-Jew and half-Gentile offspring of various DNA dilutions. Still, if they have at least one parent who was Hebrew in their ancestry they are still Abraham's seed and "heirs according to the Promise" (Gal. 3:29.) Samaritans teach me this. The woman at the well is the example. One of them, that is.

Now, my friend, you know that God also made a covenant with Noah... and Noah was far from being a Hebrew.

Noah's covenant was not a salvation covenant in the same vein as Abraham's, Mosaic, or New.
Noah's covenant did pass on to his three kids, and like Jacob and not Esau, it was to Shem and not Ham or Japheth. There has always been a people on the planet separated to God, seed of the woman opposed to seed of the serpent.

8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

...and the covenant promise is:

11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
Gen. 9:8–13.

There were no Gentiles at this time, only Adamites. Gentiles were not "cultivated" (Defined: discriminated) until God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and gave circumcision as the sign of His Covenant promises. Then, by default, Gentiles came into being. And "nations" did not always define Gentiles. It was used to describe the "nations and kings" that would "come out of thee" (Abraham) in the Genesis narrative. Later, it came to identify anyone not Hebrew.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Gen. 17:5–6.

15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. 16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Gen. 17:15–16.

It is unreasonable to think that non-Hebrew Gentile would come from the offspring of two Hebrew parents. Sarah was Abraham's niece. It was an all in the family covenant passed on to the children and the children's children, etc.

What I am trying to say is that the covenants of God and Israel are very important and special... but God has revealed Himself in many ways to many people. Salvation is not confined to any people on the basis of genetics.

Many ways and to many people and those people are Hebrew and seed of Abraham. God has no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. None.
And yes, it is genetics. As long as a child has at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry and their name is in the book of life of the lamb slain, that person is heir according to the promise God gave to Abraham. The covenant is with his seed.

 

[jeremiah1five]

So, if an Israelite stole a goat from his neighbor, and then repented and confessed his sin and gave back the goat to the owner with a corresponding compensation, did God put him "on hold" until he performed a long and risky trip to Jerusalem Temple some months later?
Or did God forgive his sin based on his Mercy?

When David realizes he has committed murder and adultery, he does not ask God to "cover" his sins temporarily... and he does not rely in the effect (either temporary or permanent) of any sacrifice. He trusts in the mercy of God for a real forgiveness in eloquent terms.




"Life is in the blood" is a symbol appropriate for that time, my friend.
We know that life is not in the blood more than in any other living cell of an organism. That's a fact.

Life is in the blood is an actual fact of life.

Once the blood leaves the body more than the body can handle death results.

This is what actually - not symbolically - happened to both the animal sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice of Himself for the people He came to save, that is, the Hebrew people. As the sacrifice was made to atone for the sins of the children of Israel so, too, was Jesus' sacrifice made to atone for the sins of the children of Israel. Scripture cannot be broken. There was no atonement made in either case (animal or Jesus) for the sins of non-Hebrew Gentiles for they have no covenant with God and Scripture cannot be broken no matter the erroneous interpretations of the New Covenant writings by anyone seeking to add Gentiles to any of God's salvation covenants He has with the Hebrew people.

Never during the Mosaic Covenant did the high priest leave the Holy Land and travel to the Gentile nations that surrounded Israel and pray or offer sacrifices for them in order to atone for their unatonable sins. God made no covenant with Gentiles. None.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agree.
I invite you to read from the Tanakh how David, after his murder and adultery, expected forgiveness from God.

Have mercy on me, O God,
according to Your lovingkindness;
according to the abundance of Your compassion,
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
and done this evil in Your sight,
so that You are justified when You speak,
and You are blameless when You judge.
5 I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin my mother conceived me.
6 You desire truth in the inward parts,
and in the hidden part You make me to know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,
that the bones that You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
and uphold me with Your willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
and sinners will return to You.
14 Deliver me from blood guiltiness, O God,
God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, You will not despise.
18 Do good to Zion in Your good pleasure;
build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
with burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
then they will offer young bulls on Your altar.

Verse 17 =

Expanded:

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Rom. 12:1–3.

Under the New Covenant God made with the children of Israel through the blood sacrifice of His Son the letter of the Law became the spirit of the Law with the Advent of the Holy Spirit. As Christ sacrificed Himself both in letter and also in spirit He made the Law, which is spiritual, to be put in the inward parts of the House of Israel (northern kingdom tribes) and the House of Judah (southern kingdom tribes.) All the New Covenant is, is the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Christ. The Law was nailed to His cross, not to kill it as in death, but to in a sense change it in same fashion as we undergo change from flesh into spirit upon our natural deaths. By nailing the Law to His cross He joined Himself to the Law in death so that as He was raised in newness of life, so too, is the Law also raised in a newness of life. NOW God can put in the inward parts His Law because the Law was type and shadow of the Holy Spirit. No longer does the Law written on stones lead and guide God's people from without, but now this leading and guiding is done from within. The kingdom of God does not come with observation, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Christ is the kingdom of God. He declares this in Matthew 12:28:

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Mt 12:27–28.

 

[jeremiah1five]

But you have no problem breaking New Testament scriptures

As I said, any interpretation of the New Covenant writings which describe, explain, discuss the New Covenant era the children of Israel immediately found themselves in with the Advent of the Holy Spirit, which interpretation that seeks to change, add to, subtract from, or alter in anyway what was has been written by the Spirit of God in the Hebrew Scriptures is to be rejected.

Your interpretation of Saul's words trying to prove non-Hebrew Gentiles are now in the Hebrew covenants is in error and breaks Scripture as written in their Scripture. God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. None. There is nothing in the Hebrew Scripture saying such lying, "devilish" things.

Your interpretations are in error. Saul, as rabbi and Pharisee would be the last one to make such a claim and contradict the oracles of God, contradict God Himself.
You are being led astray by a Constantinian Gentile theology that has stolen everything God has given to the Hebrew people, even stealing their terms like "Bride" and "Church" and "saints" and "covenant" and made them apply to Gentiles.

Never while the Temple stood and even before Christ's birth have Gentiles ever made any claim to being in the Abraham covenant. Not before His birth, not while He was here, and not for the four decades before the Temple was finally destroyed is there any documentation or claim from Gentiles that Gentiles are in the Abraham covenant.
Gentiles immediately following the destruction of the Jewish Temple saw this destruction as judgment from God and they themselves as Israel's replacement in the Plan of God for His people the Hebrews. While the Jews were scattered the Gentiles saw opportunity to step in and steal Israel's inheritance. This is tantamount to a father leaving his son his inheritance, and while the son was away the neighbor from two streets over, yes, even from the city over yonder, stepping in and claiming the father's inheritance he left for his son. It is illegal. It is sin. And Gentiles will suffer the same destruction as Israel did when comes the time for God to end the Times of the Gentiles. It will come with the destruction of the Gentile nations and God again turns His attention back upon His Chosen, covenant people, sends the two witnesses (prophets) to Israel who will use the Hebrew Scriptures to prove to Israel that this Jesus was truly the Son of God and King of the Jews.

 

[TomL]

As I said, any interpretation of the New Covenant writings which describe, explain, discuss the New Covenant era the children of Israel immediately found themselves in with the Advent of the Holy Spirit, which interpretation that seeks to change, add to, subtract from, or alter in anyway what was has been written by the Spirit of God in the Hebrew Scriptures is to be rejected.

Your interpretation of Saul's words trying to prove non-Hebrew Gentiles are now in the Hebrew covenants is in error and breaks Scripture as written in their Scripture. God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. None. There is nothing in the Hebrew Scripture saying such lying, "devilish" things.

Your interpretations are in error. Saul, as rabbi and Pharisee would be the last one to make such a claim and contradict the oracles of God, contradict God Himself.
You are being led astray by a Constantinian Gentile theology that has stolen everything God has given to the Hebrew people, even stealing their terms like "Bride" and "Church" and "saints" and "covenant" and made them apply to Gentiles.

Never while the Temple stood and even before Christ's birth have Gentiles ever made any claim to being in the Abraham covenant. Not before His birth, not while He was here, and not for the four decades before the Temple was finally destroyed is there any documentation or claim from Gentiles that Gentiles are in the Abraham covenant.
Gentiles immediately following the destruction of the Jewish Temple saw this destruction as judgment from God and they themselves as Israel's replacement in the Plan of God for His people the Hebrews. While the Jews were scattered the Gentiles saw opportunity to step in and steal Israel's inheritance. This is tantamount to a father leaving his son his inheritance, and while the son was away the neighbor from two streets over, yes, even from the city over yonder, stepping in and claiming the father's inheritance he left for his son. It is illegal. It is sin. And Gentiles will suffer the same destruction as Israel did when comes the time for God to end the Times of the Gentiles. It will come with the destruction of the Gentile nations and God again turns His attention back upon His Chosen, covenant people, sends the two witnesses (prophets) to Israel who will use the Hebrew Scriptures to prove to Israel that this Jesus was truly the Son of God and King of the Jews.

As stated you reject New Testament scripture based on an obsolete Old Testament

Well the temple does not stand and the New covenant brings gentiles into the fold

Ephesians 2:13–19 (NASB 2020) — 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16 and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

BTW Paul was not a gentile

You forget the purpose of the Abrahamic covenant

Gen 18:18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 22:18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Gen 26:4And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

 

[jeremiah1five]

As stated you reject New Testament scripture based on an obsolete Old Testament

Well the temple does not stand and the New covenant brings gentiles into the fold

Ephesians 2:13–19 (NASB 2020) — 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16 and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

BTW Paul was not a gentile

You forget the purpose of the Abrahamic covenant

Gen 18:18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 22:18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Gen 26:4And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

You say that the New Covenant "brings Gentiles into the fold"?

Here is the New Covenant in Jeremiah, the one to write about it around 762 BC.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer. 31:31.

The House of Israel and the House of Judah is referring to the northern and southern kingdoms under various kings after the death of Solomon when his kingdom was split in two.

As you can read this is the only mention of a New Covenant in the Old Testament and there are NO GENTILES mentioned "coming into the fold."

You are wrong.

 

[Grace ambassador]

Dear @Administrator.

Since this thread is "going away from love" towards accusations of "You have no problem breaking..." and
"You are wrong..." about other subjects, then, I kindly ask that this thread be closed.

Thanks.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Dear @Administrator.

Since this thread is "going away from love" towards accusations of "You have no problem breaking..." and
"You are wrong..." about other subjects, then, I kindly ask that this thread be closed.

Thanks.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Let them take it 'out back' to the woodshed and figure it out.

That's how I'd handle it.

 

[TomL]

You say that the New Covenant "brings Gentiles into the fold"?

Here is the New Covenant in Jeremiah, the one to write about it around 762 BC.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer. 31:31.

The House of Israel and the House of Judah is referring to the northern and southern kingdoms under various kings after the death of Solomon when his kingdom was split in two.

As you can read this is the only mention of a New Covenant in the Old Testament and there are NO GENTILES mentioned "coming into the fold."

You are wrong.

And here is the New Testament affirmation

Ephesians 2:13–19 (NASB 2020) — 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16 and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

and

Acts 15:13–17 (KJV 1900) — 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

 

[jeremiah1five]

And here is the New Testament affirmation

Ephesians 2:13–19 (NASB 2020) — 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16 and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

and

Acts 15:13–17 (KJV 1900) — 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Eith Saul or your interpretation of Saul contradicts Scripture.
Scripture cannot be broken. The only people in covenant with God are the children of Israel who are the children of Abraham.

 

[TomL]

Eith Saul or your interpretation of Saul contradicts Scripture.
Scripture cannot be broken. The only people in covenant with God are the children of Israel who are the children of Abraham.

Sorry, but the New Testament is scripture. The old covenant has been abolished

And here is the New Testament affirmation

Ephesians 2:13–19 (NASB 2020) — 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16 and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

and

Acts 15:13–17 (KJV 1900) — 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Sorry, but the New Testament is scripture. The old covenant has been abolished

And here is the New Testament affirmation

Ephesians 2:13–19 (NASB 2020) — 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the hostility, which is the Law composed of commandments expressed in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new person, in this way establishing peace; 16 and that He might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the hostility. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household,

and

Acts 15:13–17 (KJV 1900) — 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Men cannot abrogate God's Word.
Jesus Himself said, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" Mt 5:18.

All has NOT been fulfilled. There is still Revelation of John that needs fulfilling as well as many prophecies in the Old Covenant.