What do JW's Believe ?

[Olde Tymer]

.
Should it be decided to go head to head with Watchtower Society missionaries,
here's some useful tips.

1• It's best to use their Bibles. So round up a copy of the Watchtower Society's
New World Translation of the Bible and its Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the
Greek Scriptures. Sometimes these are available in thrift stores like Good Will and
Salvation Army. Both are available online from amazon dot com.

For some useful insights into a variety of Jehovah's Witness teachings, the little
brown book titled "Reasoning From The Scriptures" is a must-have. It's available
online too. Be sure to get the Watchtower Society's version instead of another book
by the same name published by a different agency.

2• Do not let these people get personal with you. You must never ever assume they
are your friends because first and foremost their primary interest is in making you a
life-long slave to the Watchtower Society. You can be courteous and you can be
civil, but it's highly recommended that you not let them into your life.

3• Do not accept their literature. They will want to come back later and discuss it
with you; thus taking control of both your thinking and the meeting.

4• Don't let them get too far into their spiel, but at the first opportunity begin
introducing your own questions; thus denying them control of the conversation.

5• Do not debate. You're not a salesman pushing a product, nor a recruiter, nor a
candidate running for an elected office: you're not on a quota, you're not out to win
anything, nor are you required to win-- you're a herald; viz: a messenger. Your
information is best presented as a second opinion for them to think about; and
that's all. No hammering and no pressuring.

The goal is to show missionaries that the Society's isn't the only expert opinion out
there. In other words: the Watchtower Society's interpretations aren't the only
option; nor are theirs eo ipso the right interpretations just because the Governing
Body says so.

6• Avoid getting embroiled in trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas,
Christmas trees, the design and construction of the wooden device upon which
Christ was crucified, saluting the flag, service in the military, and that sort of thing.
There are much bigger fish to fry than those.

The No.1 issue on their minds when they come to your door will likely be Jehovah's
kingdom, in particular, the portion of His kingdom to be on Earth.

7• Make them listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have to repeat
yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise your voice. Do not
let them digress, change the subject, go off on a tangent, nor get distracted and/or
turn their attention elsewhere while you're speaking. If they start digging through
their bags, shuffling papers, tinkering with their tablets, or looking up a reference;
call them on it because there is no use in speaking when their minds are elsewhere
engaged.

8• Do not permit them to interrupt you and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but firmly,
insist that they hold their peace until you've said your piece.

9• Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions. They
sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more knowledgeable.
When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely for their time and then
ask them to leave and come back when they have the information. Do not let them
stay and start a new topic of their own.

10• Do not react and/or respond to ad hominems, which can be defined as a logical
fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive,
qualifications and/or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons
associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument
itself.

They will most likely challenge your qualifications; for example your training in the
Greek and Hebrew languages. But don't let them get away with discrediting you as
a means to invalidating your information.

11• These people undergo hour upon hour of training to refute standard Christian
doctrines, so it's very important to show them the Bible not only in ways they've
already seen, but also in ways they've never imagined.
_

 

[synergy]

.
Should it be decided to go head to head with Watchtower Society missionaries,
here's some useful tips.

1• It's best to use their Bibles. So round up a copy of the Watchtower Society's
New World Translation of the Bible and its Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the
Greek Scriptures. Sometimes these are available in thrift stores like Good Will and
Salvation Army. Both are available online from amazon dot com.

For some useful insights into a variety of Jehovah's Witness teachings, the little
brown book titled "Reasoning From The Scriptures" is a must-have. It's available
online too. Be sure to get the Watchtower Society's version instead of another book
by the same name published by a different agency.

2• Do not let these people get personal with you. You must never ever assume they
are your friends because first and foremost their primary interest is in making you a
life-long slave to the Watchtower Society. You can be courteous and you can be
civil, but it's highly recommended that you not let them into your life.

3• Do not accept their literature. They will want to come back later and discuss it
with you; thus taking control of both your thinking and the meeting.

4• Don't let them get too far into their spiel, but at the first opportunity begin
introducing your own questions; thus denying them control of the conversation.

5• Do not debate. You're not a salesman pushing a product, nor a recruiter, nor a
candidate running for an elected office: you're not on a quota, you're not out to win
anything, nor are you required to win-- you're a herald; viz: a messenger. Your
information is best presented as a second opinion for them to think about; and
that's all. No hammering and no pressuring.

The goal is to show missionaries that the Society's isn't the only expert opinion out
there. In other words: the Watchtower Society's interpretations aren't the only
option; nor are theirs eo ipso the right interpretations just because the Governing
Body says so.

6• Avoid getting embroiled in trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas,
Christmas trees, the design and construction of the wooden device upon which
Christ was crucified, saluting the flag, service in the military, and that sort of thing.
There are much bigger fish to fry than those.

The No.1 issue on their minds when they come to your door will likely be Jehovah's
kingdom, in particular, the portion of His kingdom to be on Earth.

7• Make them listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have to repeat
yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise your voice. Do not
let them digress, change the subject, go off on a tangent, nor get distracted and/or
turn their attention elsewhere while you're speaking. If they start digging through
their bags, shuffling papers, tinkering with their tablets, or looking up a reference;
call them on it because there is no use in speaking when their minds are elsewhere
engaged.

8• Do not permit them to interrupt you and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but firmly,
insist that they hold their peace until you've said your piece.

9• Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions. They
sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more knowledgeable.
When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely for their time and then
ask them to leave and come back when they have the information. Do not let them
stay and start a new topic of their own.

10• Do not react and/or respond to ad hominems, which can be defined as a logical
fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive,
qualifications and/or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons
associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument
itself.

They will most likely challenge your qualifications; for example your training in the
Greek and Hebrew languages. But don't let them get away with discrediting you as
a means to invalidating your information.

11• These people undergo hour upon hour of training to refute standard Christian
doctrines, so it's very important to show them the Bible not only in ways they've
already seen, but also in ways they've never imagined.
_

Excellent points!
I'm interested to know what they usually lead with. You mentioned Jehovah's Kingdom and the name Jehovah. I've done some research about God's Kingdom many moons ago. I've going to dust off that information. I'll dig into the NT usage of Kyrios.
I always immediately ask them if they know Greek. I then bid them adieu until they can bring someone who does know Greek. They never come back.

 

[Olde Tymer]

I always immediately ask them if they know Greek

That approach could boomerang if perchance one should challenge your knowledge
of Hebrew and Aramaic.
_

 

[synergy]

That approach could boomerang if perchance one should challenge your knowledge
of Hebrew and Aramaic.
_

Good point. My comeback would be that the Koine Greek LXX covers me for the OT. And it's endorsed by the Apostles who naturally made use of it when they wrote their Epistles.

And that takes me to the actual names of God mentioned on both the LXX and NT which are Theos, Kyrios, I Am, and Thespotas, all endorsed by the Apostles themselves. So as they say here in the south, if it's good enough for Paul then it's good enough for me.

 

[Keiw1]

.
In the story told at Luke 16:19-31, there's a rich man dead and buried (Luke
19:22) and there's the patriarch Abraham dead and buried. (Gen 25:9)

Well; the thing is: the rich man is able to see from his grave over to Abraham's
grave, and they are able to communicate from grave to grave. I am very curious
how Abraham's corpse, and the other guy's corpse, are able to communicate with
one another at all let alone through the ground like that.

Now, according to Solomon, the dead know nothing (Ecc 9:10) yet here in Luke we
find the rich man's corpse and Abraham's corpse no less sentient than they were
in life.

There's also a pauper in the story who, when he passed away, was more than likely
disposed of in a city dump rather than given a decent burial; yet there he is
apparently right alongside Abraham in the very same grave.

So just how is it that the rich man could see the pauper below ground when quite
possibly his remains were above ground in a dump?
_

symbolic

 

[Keiw1]

Good point. My comeback would be that the Koine Greek LXX covers me for the OT. And it's endorsed by the Apostles who naturally made use of it when they wrote their Epistles.

And that takes me to the actual names of God mentioned on both the LXX and NT which are Theos, Kyrios, I Am, and Thespotas, all endorsed by the Apostles themselves. So as they say here in the south, if it's good enough for Paul then it's good enough for me.

You have titles confused with names-God has 1 name=YHWH(Jehovah) Theos means God-title, same as Allah, means God its not a name.- Kurios means Lord-Title. I am is what Jesus answered the pharisees-He lived before Abraham. There is no- i am that i am in the Hebrew written OT. Only found in altered trinity translations. Hebrew scholars say that phrase translates-I will be what i will be( something like that)

 

[synergy]

You have titles confused with names-God has 1 name=YHWH(Jehovah) Theos means God-title, same as Allah, means God its not a name.- Kurios means Lord-Title. I am is what Jesus answered the pharisees-He lived before Abraham. There is no- i am that i am in the Hebrew written OT. Only found in altered trinity translations. Hebrew scholars say that phrase translates-I will be what i will be( something like that)

So what's your beef with Paul and the rest of the Apostles? Is it because they made use of the LXX names of God when they wrote their Epistles?

 

[Keiw1]

So what's your beef with Paul and the rest of the Apostles? Is it because they made use of the LXX names of God when they wrote their Epistles?

The things you showed are titles not Gods name. YHWH(Jehovah) is Gods personal name. And the righteous run to it like a strong tower. Prov 18:10)--But since the wicked, who had no right, removed Gods personal name, like at Prov 18:10 and replaced that name with titles( GOD or LORD all capitols) it has caused much confusion, by satans will it was done. God willed his personal name in his bible over 7000 places because he wants it there. The wicked keep his name out.

 

[synergy]

The things you showed are titles not Gods name. YHWH(Jehovah) is Gods personal name. And the righteous run to it like a strong tower. Prov 18:10)--But since the wicked, who had no right, removed Gods personal name, like at Prov 18:10 and replaced that name with titles( GOD or LORD all capitols) it has caused much confusion, by satans will it was done. God willed his personal name in his bible over 7000 places because he wants it there. The wicked keep his name out.

You need to take that all up with the Apostles who chose to go with the LXX titles and names of God. I would strongly advise against disagreeing with the Apostles.

 

[Olde Tymer]

.
Re: Luke 16:19-31

Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that, though
untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are not
only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while a story
about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio and the
autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while the other is far
removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus' stories that couldn't possibly be taken
from real-life . They're all actually quite believable— banquets, stewards, weddings,
farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets, lost coins, sons leaving home,
wineskins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the
blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if he had told a story with a moon made of green cheese; we would have
good reason to believe that at least that particular story was fantasy; but not one
of them are so far removed from the normal round of human experience that
they have no basis in reality whatsoever.

No; there's nothing out of the ordinary in Jesus' stories. At best; they qualify as
fiction; but never fantasy because that would be extremely out of character for
Christ; who went about advertising "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my
disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

And then there's Abraham; he's not a fictional character: he's a real-life man; the
father of the Jews, held in very high esteem by at least three of the world's
prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. He was also a prophet (Gen
20:7) and the friend of God (Isa 41:8).

I simply cannot accept that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among normal Christians
for his honesty and integrity --would say something untrue about a famous real-life
man; most especially a prophet and one of his Father's buddies.

Also, the story quotes Abraham. Would Jesus quote a real-life man saying things
that he didn't really say? Wouldn't that be a sin?

From whence did Jesus get his stories? Well; according to John 3:34-35, John 8:26,
John 8:28, John 12:49, John 14:24, and Heb 1:1-2, Jesus wasn't merely inspired; he
was micro-managed. Ergo: when folks allege that Jesus spun a tale about real people,
they're actually insinuating his Father is a person of marginal integrity who can't be
trusted to tell the truth.

The story told in Luke 16:19-31 depicts a desperate man in Hades worried sick that his
kin are on track to follow him right down to where he is and nothing whatsoever that he
can do about it. How many Jehovah's Witnesses down there are even right now feeling
just as worried sick about their surviving kin as he was; most especially JW moms and
dads?
_

 

[Keiw1]

You need to take that all up with the Apostles who chose to go with the LXX titles and names of God. I would strongly advise against disagreeing with the Apostles.

Actually Gods name is in NT over 200 places. The OT is quoted over 200 places where the name belongs in Ot thus in NT as well. Jerome who translated from originals told the Catholic leader back in the 300,s that Gods name belonged in the NT. Before he translated the Latin Vulgate. I doubt they put it in. In 2015 the Divine name kjv came out with Gods name in those over 200 places in the NT and nearly 6800 places OT.

 

[synergy]

Actually Gods name is in NT over 200 places. The OT is quoted over 200 places where the name belongs in Ot thus in NT as well. Jerome who translated from originals told the Catholic leader back in the 300,s that Gods name belonged in the NT. Before he translated the Latin Vulgate. I doubt they put it in. In 2015 the Divine name kjv came out with Gods name in those over 200 places in the NT and nearly 6800 places OT.

I couldn't care less about the Latin Vulgate and any English Bible that was translated from it. Jerome had no part in how the Greek LXX or Greek NT was created.

 

[Keiw1]

I couldn't care less about the Latin Vulgate and any English Bible that was translated from it. Jerome had no part in how the Greek LXX or Greek NT was created.

Are you kidding? There was nothing left of the NT except Catholicism translating when the protestants translated. Catholicism murdered anyone for heresy who tried to translate from Latin to a different language. About the 1300,s translating happened by others. Only Catholicism translating( NT) remained.

 

[synergy]

Are you kidding? There was nothing left of the NT except Catholicism translating when the protestants translated. Catholicism murdered anyone for heresy who tried to translate from Latin to a different language. About the 1300,s translating happened by others. Only Catholicism translating( NT) remained.

You're just thinking about Western Europe. What about Eastern Europe, Russia, Egypt, Syria, etc..? From the Greek NT you got Coptic, Russian, Romanian, Syrian, etc...Bible translations. Lots of Bibles all over those areas. Therefore, I couldn't care less about the Latin Vulgate Bible.

 

[Olde Tymer]

.
The Watchtower Society alleges that the transfiguration event recorded in Matt
17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36, and 2Pet 1:16-18 displayed Jesus' true angelic
form.

However; according to the reports; the transfiguration event was a preview of the
future kingdom; which, according to Heb 2:5-8 will be ruled, managed, and
supervised by human beings rather than by angel beings.

During the event, a voice from heaven identified Jesus as "my beloved son".
According to the first chapter of the letter to Hebrews, God has never taken an
angel as either His son or His heir.

At no time during the event did Jesus undergo a name change; he was never once
addressed, or referred to, as Michael.

None of the accounts say that Jesus' physical body was changed into a spirit body.
In point of fact, the only alteration that Jesus actually underwent was the shine that
radiated from his face and his clothing; and he remained recognizable as Jesus
rather than someone that the apostle Peter had never seen before.

FAQ: How did Peter recognize Moses and Elijah having never seen those men before?

REPLY: The report says Jesus and the men were discussing his impending demise. No
doubt Peter overheard his master addressing them by name.
_

 

[Keiw1]

You're just thinking about Western Europe. What about Eastern Europe, Russia, Egypt, Syria, etc..? From the Greek NT you got Coptic, Russian, Romanian, Syrian, etc...Bible translations. Lots of Bibles all over those areas. Therefore, I couldn't care less about the Latin Vulgate Bible.

They used Catholicism translating.

 

[synergy]

They used Catholicism translating.

What is Catholicism translating?

 

[Keiw1]

What is Catholicism translating?

The latin vulgate existed until the1300,s of the NT= Catholicism translating. No originals were left once the protestants translated. The Greek Lexicons were translated from The Latin Vulgate. Yet those Greek lexicons prove 100% the word was not called-God at John 1:1--god is correct.
In the NT in Greek, the Greek word for the true God ends in v, for god( small g) ends in g--The word ends in g in the Greek lexicons at John 1:1-- yet the false religions have God in their translations.

 

[TibiasDad]

I know some Greek-In Greek the word used for capitol G God ends in a v--For a small g god ends in a g-like the word got in the last line at John 1:1 and every small g god got. So i don't need to listen to men's twisted analogy's of what words mean.

You don’t know any Greek, and your explanation is proof positive. The word for God is Theos (Θεὸς), and typically the Greek article Ho, (ὁ, which means ‘the’) will precede the noun, in this case, Theos (Θεὸς) and would be translated as ‘the God’. In certain grammatical situations Theos (Θεὸς) does not need to be preceded by Ho, (ὁ) to be translated as God.

Second τὸν Θεόν, which you cite as ending with a “v” is the Greek letter nu, or the English letter N/n. τὸν Θεόν is equal to ὁ Θεὸς, the God, but is in the accusative case in Greek, not the Nominative case, as in being the subject of the sentence. The context would determine the meaning of Θεὸς without the definite article.

The “v” does not indicate that Θεόν is the true God, but rather the article ὁ, or τὸν in this case. Furthermore, the “g” to which you refer, is actually the Greek letter ς, sigma or the letter s in English. Thus, it is spelled Theos, not Theog!

So both of your “proofs” were completely wrong and perhaps listening to someone else would do you good! One thing is certain, based on your opinion alone, you do not know Greek even in the slightest amount. The alphabet is the first thing you learn and nobody with a week’s education in Greek would mistake a Greek sigma for an English g.


Doug

 

[Keiw1]

You don’t know any Greek, and your explanation is proof positive. The word for God is Theos (Θεὸς), and typically the Greek article Ho, (ὁ, which means ‘the’) will precede the noun, in this case, Theos (Θεὸς) and would be translated as ‘the God’. In certain grammatical situations Theos (Θεὸς) does not need to be preceded by Ho, (ὁ) to be translated as God.

Second τὸν Θεόν, which you cite as ending with a “v” is the Greek letter in, or the English letter N/n. τὸν Θεόν is equal to ὁ Θεὸς, the God, but is in the accusative case in Greek, not the Nominative case, as in being the subject of the sentence. The context would determine the meaning of Θεὸς without the definite article.

The “v” does not indicate that Θεόν is the true God, but rather the article ὁ, or τὸν in this case. Furthermore, the “g” to which you refer, is actually the Greek letter ς, sigma or the letter s in English. This it is spelled Theos, not Theog!

So both of your “proofs” were completely wrong and perhaps listening to someone else would do you good! One thing is certain, based on your opinion alone, you do not know Greek even in the slightest amount. The alphabet is the first thing you learn and nobody with a week’s education in Greek would mistake a Greek sigma for an English g.


Doug

Twisted rendition of what those 2 Greek words mean by trinity believers. There is no trinity God in existence. No trinity was served prior to the council of Constantinople 381 ce where they added the holy spirit as being part of a godhead.