APAK
Active member
G'Day Bro ( @Brakelite ) from down under. Been a spell since I last posted to you....I hope you are well and in great spirit.
What do 7th Day Adventists Believe ?
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Brakelite
Active member
Yes indeed, for Christ was crucified outside the gate, just as the Lamb was slain outside the sanctuary. There is never to be death in heaven.
Metaphorical. Our sins were laid upon Him who bore them to the cross. I say metaphorically because He knew no sin, and never sinned, yet the affect of our sin upon Him had a profound affect on His sense of well-being. In order to be the full propitiation for our sin, He had to die the death that we will die except we repent. On the cross, Jesus could not see through to the resurrection, yet faith held Him true to His Father's love. Jesus of necessity died the second death. But I say this with the realisation that you, along with most others here, do not believe people "truly die".
Jesus Himself was the one who inaugurated and established the sanctuary services in the wilderness, first, that He may dwell among the people so long as they followed the script, and in order to reveal the realities of what He would be going through on behalf of mankind. This included not just the role of victim, but also the role of the priest, who every day carried the sins of the people into the sanctuary through the medium of blood.
Annointed for service on earth at His baptism, is quite different from being annointed as high Priest in heaven.
Please read Hebrews 9, particularly
KJV Hebrews 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
I'll let you keep what you believe to be the spirit of the Sabbath, whatever you believe that to be, while I'll remember to keep the day holy, which can only be a spiritual exercise.
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Brakelite
Active member
Whoever said it does???? Seriously CL, as an ex Adventist you should know that neither the church, Ellen White, or any of our public ministries ever suggested that keeping the Sabbath saves anyone. We are saved by grace through faith. That's it. That's what I've always known since I was saved 47 years ago. I wasn't keeping the Sabbath then, in fact I wasn't keeping any of the commandments, yet I was saved. That hasn't changed. Since beginning to observe the Sabbath 27 years ago that didn't make me more saved than I was 47 years ago. And I'm annoyed that you, along with so many others void of any other arguments, resort to charges and accusations of "legalism" and "working for salvation" despite, I repeat despite, the numerous times we testify otherwise, teach otherwise, and in full open public harmony with the church we belong to.
The only motivation I can think of for you going back to that old wives tale Gossip mongering slanderous accusation is you have run out of excuses. Forgive me if I'm wrong. But you are publicly putting the church into a bad light. Quite apart from impugning my own motives and questioning even my salvation.
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Brakelite
Active member
Well, hello. Always in great spirit my friend, health wise running on 7 cylinders with the 8th under repair. Nice to "see" you.
charismaticlady
Active member
I think that is great. Whatever is not done in faith is sin. And Jesus said about keeping a day holy, or treating everyday alike - "Let each be fully convinced in his own mind." I think you can worship on Saturday and still abide IN Jesus. The only thing is - you must abide in Jesus and be born again of the Spirit to be saved. And we should assemble ourselves together Heb. 10:25.
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Rockson
Well-known member
Sure Brakelight. Now you were talking to CL and I"m someone else but I think I know considerable about what SDA think about these things. Let me tell you many years ago I read Desire of Ages.....you're not stranger to that I'm sure. Know what? I liked it. Found it very inspiring one of the best commentaries of the life of Christ I've read.
As you know critics claim it was largely plagiarized ...that is from other writers. Was it? I don't know it was, haven't studied it out but so goes the claim. No though, I am not SDA I don't agree with number of your doctrines as you wouldn't believe if I told you some things I believe.
Now about this Sabbath day thing. Yes you're correct. Most perhaps all your Bible teachers don't say by actual words you're not saved if you don't keep the Sabbath....they do not however go out of their way in my opinion to make it clear that it's not required for salvation. It's alluded to that it is. Here I brought up on line the chapter by White from Desire of Ages...chapter the Sabbath.
The Desire of Ages, by Ellen G. White. Chapter 29: The Sabbath
Because He had rested upon the Sabbath, 'God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it,'--set it apart to a holy use. He gave it to Adam as a day of rest. It was a memorial of the work of creation, and thus a sign of God's power and His love.
www.ellenwhite.info
"The Sabbath was not for Israel merely, but for the world. It had been made known to man in Eden, and, like the other precepts of the Decalogue, it is of imperishable obligation."
An imperishable obligation? That sounds like sin for not keeping it. Now if one links onto to that a scripture which says Jn 14:15 then what do you have? You have a yoke on the consciousness of the hearer they need to keep the Sabbath to be saved. Do they say the actual words though? Nope. But it sure is alluded to and to suggest it's not I'd say would be somewhat disengeious.
Here's another quote, from DOA,
And of all who keep "the Sabbath from polluting it," the Lord declares, "Even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer." Isaiah 56:6, 7.
So using this for New Testament, New Covenant times...what is White saying? Isn't that insinuating if you want to be in the presence of God you must keep the Sabbath?
To me that comes across as saying you must keep it to be saved although the words aren't said that way by SDA. My point is IMO your leaders don't come out strong enough and clear enough to state that's not true. Sorry but it seems to me they KNOW what their insinuating and to insinuate it in such strong terms makes me think they really do in a sense believe one must keep the Sabbath to be saved but they're afraid of the backlash by uttering the claim.
OK can you provide us with links where leaders in your movement make that absolutely clear? And I don't mean where they say we're saved by faith alone but where they SAY keeping the Sabbath won't save you that's it's not required. Let me see where they actually say those words and much appreciated if you would. Thanks.
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Brakelite
Active member
I think that's fair enough. However, I would clarify the following...
For arguments sake, let us consider the 6th commandment. Are we saved if we don't keep the 6th commandment? Or the 10th? Or the 1st? Or "whatever is not of faith, to him it is sin", or blasphemy, or impersonating God? At what stage can we say, it's okay to do that, or not do this, and still be saved?
Now.
No non Christian can become saved by keeping the Sabbath. Or any commandment. But certainly, if one knows and understands his obligations towards God, knows for example that murder is morally sinful, and killed anyway, then He is guilty and if that sin remains unconfessed and unforgiven, then he is lost. The same is for anything in scripture that is sin, including the Sabbath. If you know what is good, and do not do that which is good, you have sinned. If that becomes a habit, and you profess yourself to be Christian and saved by the blood of the Lamb, them the holy spirit would have been convicting you of that sin for a long time, and you have blocked your ears and refused to hear and repent. Does that mean one has lost his salvation? Can one remain saved whilst living in wilful disobedience? I say no.
So. What of the Sabbath? In history it was replaced by Sunday. The early church observed the Sabbath. There was no debate in the early church regarding Sabbath observance. Even among the Gentiles. The eastern church that broke away from the west in the "great schism", kept the 7th day Sabbath. So did the African churches and the Celtic. It wasn't until the 5th century that the Catholic church began to persecute Sabbath keepers in earnest and enforced Sunday through papal authority that the Sabbath began to lose its favour.
So we have a matter of authority. The word of God says the 7th day.
Rome says the 1st day.
Others say no day but it is now a spiritual rest that has replaced the 4th commandment.
So whose authority are we to obey? And what is the result of we are wrong by lending our honour and obedience to the wrong authority?
charismaticlady
Active member
Half true. Adventists believe we must keep all 10 of the Commandments, so anyone who doesn't isn't saved. But the Bible says we must not still keep the letter of the law as in the Old Covenant, but the Spirit of the Law. You assure me that you will still keep the letter of the Law no matter what God says.
APAK
Active member
Same to you of of course. Are you still moving kids around town to their respective schools? I see you might have two Alsatians as new editions to your family..nice.
civic
Well-known member
I'm glad you guys are here.
Brakelite
Active member
Some interesting insights regarding the sanctuary in heaven.
Revelation 4,5.
Jesus and angels not present in the sanctuary in Revelation 4. There is only 1 on the throne. In Revelation 3:21 Jesus said He would be seated with His Father when He returns, so in Revelation 4 He is not yet returned.
This is the Holy Place, the first compartment of the heavenly sanctuary. In verse 5 there is reference to 7 fires. This is a picture of the original of which the seven branched candlestick was a copy. This was placed in the OT sanctuary in the Holy Place. In Revelation 5:8 there is mention of incense and prayers, this also is confirmation that the door into which John could see (Rev.4:1) was the Holy Place, having the "altar of incense", the first compartment.
In Revelation 5 Jesus is there, (verse6), therefore He has returned... Ascended... from His work on earth, a Conquerer, a returned Soldier, a Hero come home. In chapter 4 the praises are to the Father as Creator: in chapter 5 a new song (verse 9) is sung praising both the Father and the Son as Redeemer. Both the Lamb and God are worshipped, both being equally honored as worthy of power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory and blessing. (Verses 12-14).
Revelation 4,5.
Jesus and angels not present in the sanctuary in Revelation 4. There is only 1 on the throne. In Revelation 3:21 Jesus said He would be seated with His Father when He returns, so in Revelation 4 He is not yet returned.
This is the Holy Place, the first compartment of the heavenly sanctuary. In verse 5 there is reference to 7 fires. This is a picture of the original of which the seven branched candlestick was a copy. This was placed in the OT sanctuary in the Holy Place. In Revelation 5:8 there is mention of incense and prayers, this also is confirmation that the door into which John could see (Rev.4:1) was the Holy Place, having the "altar of incense", the first compartment.
In Revelation 5 Jesus is there, (verse6), therefore He has returned... Ascended... from His work on earth, a Conquerer, a returned Soldier, a Hero come home. In chapter 4 the praises are to the Father as Creator: in chapter 5 a new song (verse 9) is sung praising both the Father and the Son as Redeemer. Both the Lamb and God are worshipped, both being equally honored as worthy of power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory and blessing. (Verses 12-14).
Brakelite
Active member
Does keeping the spirit of the law free you from keeping the letter of the law?
Brakelite
Active member
Still driving the bus, yes, and loving it. And yep, two young dogs have turned our home upside down and upended our former idyllic lifestyle for one of ongoing crisis management, hair, unwanted exercise, noise, did I mention hair? and food. Lots of food. But all the former pales into insignificance compared to the fun and joy of having them. They're totally awesome. Except for the hair.
Brakelite
Active member
True. And I completely stand by that. As would numerous obliged to obey theologians, evangelists, and church leaders of other denominations going back centuries. And if you believe the apostles didn't think we were obliged to obey God commandments, or that Jesus didn't expect obedience to His own 10 commandments, then you need to reread your Bible. And doing so has nothing to do with doing a good work in order to be saved, but has everything to do with an outward expression of the love we have for Jesus, and our appreciation for His love for us.
Jesus said Himself what disobedience and sin would result in, and from what kind of attitude bears such fruit. Do I need to quote Him?
There is never to be sin in heaven either, especially in the heavenly sanctuary.
Our sins were nailed on the Cross, not brought into heaven.
The Jewish ritual had the scapegoat carry sins into oblivion, not into the sanctuary. That perfectly aligns with our sins being nailed on the Cross, not brought into heaven.
Jesus' anointing by the Holy Spirit at His Baptism was not enough and further anointing was necessary in heaven? How so and where is that in the Bible?
Excellent verse! No carrying in of our sins into heaven. Our sins were nailed to the Cross.
By the way, I'm curious to know what the prevailing Adventist idea is as to who the future King of the North and King of the South could be. I think that the King of the North could be the Western Powers and I thought that the King of the South could be Russia. I'm not so sure about Russia anymore.
It's fascinating that many Churches emulate heavenly incense in their sanctuary specifically because of what the Book of Revelations reveals about the heavenly sanctuary. Do Adventist churches emulate heavenly incense in their sanctuary?
Brakelite
Active member
They are, metaphorically, as they are recorded in the books of heaven.
Indeed. The scapegoat ritual takes place after the High Priest leaves the sanctuary in both type and antitype... The loading of the sins upon Satan takes place at the second coming, at the conclusion of Christ's priestly ministry. He comes as King. Satan then has 1000 years in the wilderness of a desolated earth to contemplate and bear his guilt.
Brakelite
Active member
No. Nor do we have altars (as there is no sacrifice to offer), no candles to represent the holy Spirit (His real presence is there) and no loaves of bread... We have Bibles.
They are truly nailed to the cross. If not, we are in big trouble.
Their record is erased when we truly repent. If not, we are in big trouble.
It is Jesus who took on our sins and nailed them to the Cross. Satan does the opposite, he piles sins on us.
Please explain with Bible verses.
Brakelite
Active member
There are differences of opinion as to the identity of the king of the north and south. But one thing we do agree on, is that the Bible isn't talking about individuals. As I said previously, the criteria stipulated as pertaining to the Antichrist cannot be met by an individual, only by an institution led by a succession of leaders. The main reason is the time appointed for his work. He, the little horn of Daniel 7:24,25 grows out of the head of pagan Rome, and is still blackening and speaking words against the Most High at the second coming. Pagan Rome in the western hemisphere lost power and territory to the 10 barbarian tribal horns by 476ad. So the little horn/Antichrist must begin his growth before that time, in order to oversee the uprooting of 3 of them in the ending years, the last of them, the Ostrogoths, in 538ad.
