Understanding........

[praise_yeshua]

I'll start with the KJV.

1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Paul deals with understanding in 1 Corinthians 14. Like many Calvinists, there were people at Corinth claiming to know things that others could not know via "special" understanding. Calvinism in this sense isn't something new. The "base" position has always been around. It is nothing more than a means whereby another man/person seeks to claim understand that can not be easily understood by another person. Thusly, eliminating any OPPOSING questions.

However. We can read the Scriptures and teaching of Paul and KNOW, they're trying to deceive others. The requirement for understanding is based upon the clearness of speech of the speaker. Not the hearer. The SPEAKER..........

1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Thusly the requirement for spiritual knowledge is based upon the ability of the SPEAKER. Not the hearer.

Can we confirm this fact from other areas of the Bible? Why certainly....

Just a chapter over.....

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Did Paul blame God for their lack of understanding? Who is reasonable for their lack of knowledge?

Is there any other areas? Certainly....

2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

The Innate power of the words of the speaker is what enlightens.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

See how the Scriptures disarm the claims of "special revelation" in regeneration made by poor speakers?

 

[Presby02]

I'll start with the KJV.

1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Paul deals with understanding in 1 Corinthians 14. Like many Calvinists, there were people at Corinth claiming to know things that others could not know via "special" understanding. Calvinism in this sense isn't something new. The "base" position has always been around. It is nothing more than a means whereby another man/person seeks to claim understand that can not be easily understood by another person. Thusly, eliminating any OPPOSING questions.

However. We can read the Scriptures and teaching of Paul and KNOW, they're trying to deceive others. The requirement for understanding is based upon the clearness of speech of the speaker. Not the hearer. The SPEAKER..........

1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Thusly the requirement for spiritual knowledge is based upon the ability of the SPEAKER. Not the hearer.

Can we confirm this fact from other areas of the Bible? Why certainly....

Just a chapter over.....

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Did Paul blame God for their lack of understanding? Who is reasonable for their lack of knowledge?

Is there any other areas? Certainly....

2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

The Innate power of the words of the speaker is what enlightens.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

See how the Scriptures disarm the claims of "special revelation" in regeneration made by poor speakers?

You left out 1 Corinthians 2

 

[praise_yeshua]

You left out 1 Corinthians 2

Be specific. I'm not going to guess what you're trying to say.

 

[Presby02]

Be specific. I'm not going to guess what you're trying to say.

I'm not trying to say anything except you left out 1 Corinthians 2.

 

[civic]

I'm not trying to say anything except you left out 1 Corinthians 2.

I love 1 Cor 2

For or I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him

 

[Presby02]

I love 1 Cor 2

For or I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him

I do as well. The whole chapter.

 

[civic]

I do as well. The whole chapter.

Yep and Chapter 1 before it and 3 after it.

 

[Presby02]

Yep and Chapter 1 before it and 3 after it.

Absolutely

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm not trying to say anything except you left out 1 Corinthians 2.

I just didn't understand your comments relative to what I stated. Thanks

 

[Rockson]

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Notice he didn't say for some have not been regenerated so they can't awaken to the righteousness of God? Seems like he's saying if they just get the knowledge of God they can do so. So how many do we preach the gospel the knowledge of God to? I think that's everyone.

 

[civic]

Notice he didn't say for some have not been regenerated so they can't awaken to the righteousness of God? Seems like he's saying if they just get the knowledge of God they can do so. So how many do we preach the gospel the knowledge of God to? I think that's everyone.

ditto

 

[Presby02]

Notice he didn't say for some have not been regenerated so they can't awaken to the righteousness of God? Seems like he's saying if they just get the knowledge of God they can do so. So how many do we preach the gospel the knowledge of God to? I think that's everyone.

This was written to those who were already Christains. Audience relevance

 

[praise_yeshua]

This was written to those who were already Christains. Audience relevance

So was the audience you are referencing.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You how many times I've had this conversation in this life. You've have just idenified the problem with your position and Calvinism in general relative to what you claim about "Spiritual" knowledge

Notice what Paul wrote in the very next chapter........

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Do you see that word "carnal"......

Do you see what follows????? BABES IN CHRIST.

Carnal men get saved. Carnal men can believe the Gospel. The proof is right there in front of you.

 

[Presby02]

So was the audience you are referencing.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You how many times I've had this conversation in this life. You've have just idenified the problem with your position and Calvinism in general relative to what you claim about "Spiritual" knowledge

Notice what Paul wrote in the very next chapter........

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Do you see that word "carnal"......

Do you see what follows????? BABES IN CHRIST.

Carnal men get saved. Carnal men can believe the Gospel. The proof is right there in front of you.

As carnal not as they were carnal .

So who are these natural men who cannot understand because they are Spiritually discerned??

 

[praise_yeshua]

As carnal not as they were carnal .

You're still carnal. They are still carnal. As carnal..... is carnal.

So who are these natural men who cannot understand because they are Spiritually discerned??

I didn't say that at all. They can understand the Gospel and be saved. They were saved people already and not capable of understanding what Paul was trying to tell them.

Your threshold of knowledge for salvation is a farce. The verse you're using to justify your position doesn't set a standard of knowledge for salvation.

These people were already saved and could not understand "spiritual things" because they were babies. (New born Christians)

"even as unto babes in Christ."

 

[Rockson]

As carnal not as they were carnal .

I'd say you're blatantly and with no justification in doing so deviating from the truth. Fact is if Paul spoke to them as carnal that therefore means the basic salvation message was FOR THE CARNAL....or the unsaved. That means they could hear, comprehend and understand what was being said AND respond to it.

 

[Rockson]

So who are these natural men who cannot understand because they are Spiritually discerned??

1 Cor 2 was not saying the natural men weren't Christians. Unsaved men CAN be a part of that too but it's talking about if you're yielding to the natural way of thinking which Christians and Non-Christians both can do there's no way they can enter into the deep more blessed things of God. The key word is deep things of God not the basic things for beginners.

 

[Presby02]

You're still carnal. They are still carnal. As carnal..... is carnal.



I didn't say that at all. They can understand the Gospel and be saved. They were saved people already and not capable of understanding what Paul was trying to tell them.

Your threshold of knowledge for salvation is a farce. The verse you're using to justify your position doesn't set a standard of knowledge for salvation.

These people were already saved and could not understand "spiritual things" because they were babies. (New born Christians)

"even as unto babes in Christ."

Verse 14 says the "cannot" understand.

 

[Presby02]

I'd say you're blatantly and with no justification in doing so deviating froas m the truth. Fact is if Paul spoke to them as carnal that therefore means the basic salvation message was FOR THE CARNAL....or the unsaved. That means they could hear, comprehend and understand what was being said AND respond to it.

As carnal, not that they were carnal.

 

[Presby02]

1 Cor 2 was not saying the natural men weren't Christians. Unsaved men CAN be a part of that too but it's talking about if you're yielding to the natural way of thinking which Christians and Non-Christians both can do there's no way they can enter into the deep more blessed things of God. The key word is deep things of God not the basic things for beginners.

How were they Christains if the could not understand Spiritual things?? The gospel is hid to them that are lost.

The text itself makes no such distinction.