Understanding Paul Part 1

[Studyman]

The Spirit of God thought it necessary to warn us about men who would twist Paul's words, as they do other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2 Peter 3: 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, "as they do also the other scriptures", unto their own destruction.

So if I adopt the interpretation of others, I am vulnerable to exposing myself to misunderstanding Paul's teaching, which could also lead to my destruction. This would be the reason why God warned me in the first place, so it seems prudent not to ignore the warning.

I have discovered many doctrines and philosophies promoted by this world's religions which come from twisting Paul's words, in my view. I would like to point out a few of these popular doctrines for awareness and discussion for those who might also take God's Warnings seriously. The first subject would be traditions of men VS. the commandments of God.

First off, Paul explained in his own words what he believes after being accused by the Pharisees of teaching against God's Laws.

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

And he also declares the foundation of his teaching to both Jew and Gentile.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Now, armed with Paul's own belief and teaching, let's go to Colossians where he is warning the Body of Christ.

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition "of men", after the rudiments "of the world", and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

So Jesus didn't partake of or promote the Philosophies of men, traditions of men, or Rudiments of this world. HE also believed and promoted what was written in the Law and Prophets just as Paul did. If Jesus didn't walk in a certain doctrine or tradition, it is because it wasn't of God, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Paul continues his warnings of the religious traditions of men.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 "Which all are to perish" with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Religious traditions of men are not profitable "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". The lead to a man's destruction. They are of the prince of this world, and lead to nothing as do all commandments and doctrines of men. Paul is teaching here to "Beware of men" who peddle the religious traditions of this world, and not from the mouth of God.

Jesus exposed the religious traditions and commandments of men that are against us, that was being promoted by the mainstream religion in Jerusalem.

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers,(that promoted them, Yes?) he made a shew of them (who promoted the philosophies and traditions of men, Yes?) openly, (in front of the whole world) triumphing over them in it. ( Those whose traditions caused men who followed them to transgress God's Commandments)

But what about God's Commandments, the "Feasts of the Lord" and God's Judgments? What does Paul teach the Body of Christ about them in Colossians 2?

16 Let no man therefore "judge you" in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of "things to come"; but the body is of Christ.

The Commandments and Judgments of God are shadows of things to come. They don't "perish with the using" as do the commandments of men. They are, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, "good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". They are, as Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 9, "Written for our sakes no doubt". For "OUR" admonition. (1 Cor. 10) Paul said Jew means nothing, Gentile means nothing, "but keeping the Commandments of God" (1 Cor. 7)

In this world's religions, men twist Paul's words to imply that the " handwriting of ordinances that was against us" was God's instruction in righteousness. They teach that the " principalities and powers" Jesus spoiled was God and His Law. They imply that Jesus made a show of His Father "openly" and triumphed over HIM on the cross. They preach that Paul is calling God's commandments "Vain deceit", philosophies of men, and traditions of men and rudiments of this world.

When it is clear that Paul made a separation between God's instruction VS the religious traditions of men and warned of the latter, while promoting the former.

In summary Paul is teaching the Body of Christ to beware of religious men who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", (Titus 1) and to not let any man judge them for their obedience to God.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which "he" hath not seen, vainly puffed up by "his" fleshly mind.

I am so thankful that God and His Son warned me of religious men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but twist Paul's words to justify disobedience. I don't believe that is Paul's message in Colossians at all, although I did for many years. Please don't hesitate to share your thoughts concerning this topic.

 

[mikesw]

Certainly Peter's warnings have significance. He was saying there were men distorting Paul's message. We saw it where evil men said Paul was preaching against the traditions of Jews and saying for them not to get circumcised. Paul likely did not mind if they still did the traditions as long as it was not interrupting the message of Christ as the sole basis for justification with God. Do you know of other distortions these evil men were making from Paul's words?
Are you trying to say that Paul was obligating people to laws made for the Israel people?

 

[Studyman]

Certainly Peter's warnings have significance. He was saying there were men distorting Paul's message. We saw it where evil men said Paul was preaching against the traditions of Jews and saying for them not to get circumcised.

Here is what Paul actually said;

Rom. 2: 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through "breaking the law" dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 25 For circumcision verily profiteth, "if thou keep the law": but if thou be a "breaker of the law", thy circumcision "is made uncircumcision".

Here is how the Jesus "of the Bible" defined the "Jews Religion".

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep "your own tradition".

If a man is going to reject God's Judgments, and Statutes and Commandments, what good is cutting loose skin off the penis?

Paul likely did not mind if they still did the traditions as long as it was not interrupting the message of Christ as the sole basis for justification with God.

God's Laws have meaning, they are Spiritual. Circumcision is a law of God, not a Jewish Tradition. This is why I posted this OP, in the hopes that men might stop listening to the religious sects and businesses of this world, the "other voce" in the gardcen God placed us in, and really "HEAR" what Paul is really saying.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is "outward in the flesh":

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Consider something if you are able. It is against God's Law to walk around naked. How then would we even know if a person was circumcised or not? Would you flash others to show your obedience to God? What did Moses say?

Duet. 10: 16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and "be no more stiffnecked".

Do you know of other distortions these evil men were making from Paul's words?

I know many modern self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" who come in Christ's Name, who distort Paul's words. It is these men the Jesus "of the Bible" warns me to "Take Heed of".

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, "and of the end of the world"?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and "shall" deceive many.

Jesus could have warned about Jews here, or Islam, or Atheists. But HE didn't, HE warned of "Christians". Therefore, it isn't the lawless traditions of ancient Jews that we need to worry about, rather, as Paul also teaches, men who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

Are you trying to say that Paul was obligating people to laws made for the Israel people?

Ex. 12: 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

I cannot find where Paul teaches that God is a respecter of persons, treating men according to the DNA they were born with.

Here is what God actually said about non-Jews.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

There is much more written about the Just God and His instruction in righteousness. The teaching that God's Laws were only "for" the Jews is foolishness, and yet another in the prophesied deceptions we are warned about.

1 Cor. 7: 19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Rom. 2: 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[mikesw]

So you basically are saying that Paul was obligating Christians to the Mosaic law. At the same time you conflate the Mosaic law with the commandments of God. The debate on the application of the Mosaic law does face possible subtle details that have to be resolved. Of course we do not go stoning both a man and woman caught in adultery, but maybe that's just my weakness.
Anyhow, it is problematic for you to join in on the rhetoric of Rom 2:17-29 that Paul used to expose the judgmental attitude of the Roman gentiles. Hopefully we shall see that text clarified so that people would have less excuse to apply that toward making people feel obligated to Jewish laws.

As to the distorting of the message of Paul, I'm not clear where you find the distortions being done by so-called Christians. Also, as a bit of a warning, you seem to make your own interpretation as the gold standard and perhaps end up calling other views "religious" or acting against God. The better goal is to work with other believers to sort out the ideas rather than acting as the judge.

 

[Studyman]

So you basically are saying that Paul was obligating Christians to the Mosaic law.

I posted what Paul actually said, as well as what the Law and Prophets actually said. And to my knowledge, "Moses" never created even ONE Law. The Laws given us in the Oracles of God, that Paul taught were important are "GOD'S Laws" that HE gave to the Homeborn "Jews" and the Stranger, "Gentiles. It is Paul, not me, who teaches that God is no respecter of persons. Given the warnings the Jesus "of the Bible" gave about men who "call Jesus Lord, Lord", I choose to believe Paul's teaching. But I understand this mindset is a path less traveled.

At the same time you conflate the Mosaic law with the commandments of God.

I believe all that is written in the Holy Scriptures. EVERY LAW given to Moses by God, were "God's LAWs". Not Moses' laws. This is simply undeniably Biblically true.

The debate on the application of the Mosaic law does face possible subtle details that have to be resolved. Of course we do not go stoning both a man and woman caught in adultery, but maybe that's just my weakness.

Nevertheless, Paul said they were dead in trespasses and Sins. Even you must surely accept some of Paul's words. And how did they die? Didn't the "Congregation of the Lord" spiritually stone them, to put wickedness away from God's church?

I am always amazed at the hypocrisy of the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord that HE warned about. They make the stupid declaration that in order to be obedient to God's Laws, they must go find people and stone them to death, literally. And yet you are perfectly fine with the Jesus of the Bible's Words,

John 6: 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Can you show me where you found Jesus' Blood to drink, and His flesh to eat? You are alive, Yes? So in your religion, is Jesus then a Liar? Or does this Word of God have a Spiritual meaning and significance, just like;

Lev. 24: 16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Anyhow, it is problematic for you to join in on the rhetoric of Rom 2:17-29 that Paul used to expose the judgmental attitude of the Roman gentiles.

Rom. 2:17 Behold, thou art called "a Jew", and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Where is your support for your preaching that Paul was speaking to Romans Gentiles in Roman's 2? What "LAW" was the Roman Gentiles instructed by?

Rom. 1: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Clearly Paul is speaking to Jews, not Roman Gentiles.

Hopefully we shall see that text clarified so that people would have less excuse to apply that toward making people feel obligated to Jewish laws.

Paul never said to walk in the manmade traditions of the rebellious, disobedient Jews. Here is what Paul actually said;

Rom. 6: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness "unto sin": but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as "instruments of righteousness" "unto God".

Rom. 7: 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

So I don't know anyone promoting "Jewish Traditions" except Jews. What are you talking about here, "God's Laws", or the Laws of men the Jews taught for Doctrines?

As to the distorting of the message of Paul, I'm not clear where you find the distortions being done by so-called Christians.

Well, you are a self-proclaimed Christian, Yes? And you preach that the Laws of God and the, what you call, "Mosiac Law", are two different things. That is a falsehood. You preach that God's Laws are only for men of a certain DNA, Namely, "Jewish" or Israel. And again, according to what is actually written, this is another falsehood. Jesus warned specifically of "Christians", I posted HIS OWN Words. And yet you clearly don't believe Him. Paul advocated obedience to God, you don't believe he did, even though I posted his own words in which he clearly does. And you preach to others that Paul was speaking to Roman Gentiles, as opposed to Jews who lived in Rome. Another untruth, all shown clearly by Scriptures.

So there is a disconnect between the religious philosophy you have adopted, and what the Scriptures actually say. Was this not also true of the religious sect of the Pharisees? And where did you hear these doctrines, you are promoting if not from this world's various religious sects and businesses?

Also, as a bit of a warning, you seem to make your own interpretation as the gold standard and perhaps end up calling other views "religious" or acting against God.

I appreciate discussing Scriptures, but it was you who replied to me "So you basically are saying that Paul was obligating Christians to the Mosaic law. At the same time you conflate the Mosaic law with the commandments of God."

What I posted was Paul's own words, instructing both Jew and Gentile to "Yield themselves" to God. And Moses never created any Laws, God gave HIS LAWS to Moses because the people didn't want to hear God's Laws from God. It's in your own Bible, I can show you if you want. So I get the whole "different interpretation" argument. But some things are not up to "interpretation". Like, whose Laws did Moses give to the Homeborn, and the Stranger that sojourned among them? The answer is "God's Laws". There is no "other interpretation", that I am aware of. You are free to show me in scriptures where Moses gave someone else's Laws, or his own laws, but I don't think such a doctrine exists, except maybe from the mouth of "another voice" in the garden God placed us in.

The better goal is to work with other believers to sort out the ideas rather than acting as the judge.

I didn't make a judgment of you. I posted scriptures that you refused to acknowledge, and I asked you questions, that you refused to answer. And I exposed some doctrines you were promoting that didn't align with Scriptures. Wouldn't you want to know if you were misled by the "Many" deceivers who "come in Christ's Name" that the Jesus "of the Bible" warned about? If a man refused to answer a question, is it "judging them" to say, "you ignored my questions"?

Maybe you have already judged me, and that is why you don't acknowledge the Scriptures I post or answer the questions I asked, both of which are simple courtesies practiced among faithful men.

Isn't that the very beginning of Paul's discussion in Romans 2?

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Why not have an honest, unbiased discussion about what is actually written? That's all I want.

 

[mikesw]

I posted what Paul actually said, as well as what the Law and Prophets actually said. And to my knowledge, "Moses" never created even ONE Law. The Laws given us in the Oracles of God, that Paul taught were important are "GOD'S Laws" that HE gave to the Homeborn "Jews" and the Stranger, "Gentiles. It is Paul, not me, who teaches that God is no respecter of persons. Given the warnings the Jesus "of the Bible" gave about men who "call Jesus Lord, Lord", I choose to believe Paul's teaching. But I understand this mindset is a path less traveled.

I appreciate discussing Scriptures, but it was you who replied to me "So you basically are saying that Paul was obligating Christians to the Mosaic law. At the same time you conflate the Mosaic law with the commandments of God."

...

interpretation" argument. But some things are not up to "interpretation". Like, whose Laws did Moses give to the Homeborn, and the Stranger that sojourned among them? The answer is "God's Laws". There is no "other interpretation", that I am aware of. You are free to show me in scriptures where Moses gave someone else's Laws, or his own laws, but I don't think such a doctrine exists, except maybe from the mouth of "another voice" in the garden God placed us in.



I didn't make a judgment of you. I posted scriptures that you refused to acknowledge, and I asked you questions, that you refused to answer. And I exposed some doctrines you were promoting that didn't align with Scriptures. Wouldn't you want to know if you were misled by the "Many" deceivers who "come in Christ's Name" that the Jesus "of the Bible" warned about? If a man refused to answer a question, is it "judging them" to say, "you ignored my questions"?

Maybe you have already judged me, and that is why you don't acknowledge the Scriptures I post or answer the questions I asked, both of which are simple courtesies practiced among faithful men.

Isn't that the very beginning of Paul's discussion in Romans 2?

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Why not have an honest, unbiased discussion about what is actually written? That's all I want.

There might be a tiny bit of reality you have touched upon. I have a big problem when you quote scripture that contradicts the points you want to make. You also quote scriptures that have nothing to do with the point you seem to want to make.

Please answer me how many people you have stoned to death for adultery and fornication. Then we can proceed from there.

The other problem is that you quote stuff out of Romans 2 that is a rhetorical address to a Jew (in vv 17-29) as if it had anything to do with gentiles. Paul was using this to expose the judgmental attitude of the gentiles while also exposing the fallacy of stances taken against the gentile Christians by non-Christian Jews. So your application of those verses is totally foreign to what I found about Romans. So it is near impossible to discuss anything when the scriptures you use seem so inapplicable to the discussion.

From what I see skimming across you text, you fail to understand what Christ has done and what Paul has said. You make the OT law your idol despite Paul showing the Mosaic law ended with Christ's arrival.

A little clue is in Rom 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

If you are Jewish in the first century, you were under the law. If you are a gentile, you never were under that law.

Another one is Gal 3:19
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

If you are a person who was in the Exodus and transgressed God, then that law was added for you. The other little detail here is that the Offspring came and then died and was resurrected in around AD30.

 

[Studyman]

There might be a tiny bit of reality you have touched upon. I have a big problem when you quote scripture that contradicts the points you want to make. You also quote scriptures that have nothing to do with the point you seem to want to make.

It's customary in a rebuke or a correction to give an example of the error you claim happened. In this way, a person knows the error and can make amends. Whereas baseless accusations with no proof or evidence are just sour grapes, and childish vanity providing nothing good for either party.

Please answer me how many people you have stoned to death for adultery and fornication. Then we can proceed from there.

According to Paul, you were dead in your trespasses and Sins. You tell me who stoned you to death, and we can go from there.

The other problem is that you quote stuff out of Romans 2 that is a rhetorical address to a Jew (in vv 17-29) as if it had anything to do with gentiles. Paul was using this to expose the judgmental attitude of the gentiles while also exposing the fallacy of stances taken against the gentile Christians by non-Christian Jews.

I already posted Paul's words once, in which he explains a few things about God, "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:"

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Clearly chapter 2 had everything to do with Gentiles and Jews, both being judged by their Works by a God who is no respecter of persons. I can only point Paul's words out, I can't make you believe them.

So your application of those verses is totally foreign to what I found about Romans. So it is near impossible to discuss anything when the scriptures you use seem so inapplicable to the discussion.

It seems you are just furthering what someone else has taught you about Paul. Why not examine the Scriptures I posted and explain to me where my understanding is wrong.

From what I see skimming across you text, you fail to understand what Christ has done and what Paul has said. You make the OT law your idol despite Paul showing the Mosaic law ended with Christ's arrival.

First, and again, Moses doesn't have a LAW, God does. And Paul told you in Rom. 2;13 (For "not the hearers" of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law "shall be justified".

Jesus saw your religious philosophy coming, and prepared His People for it.

Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I am come "to destroy the law", or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Jesus has not yet returned, therefore, not all is fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Your preaching that Paul even "Thinks" Jesus came to "END" His Father's Laws, in direct contradiction to the Jesus "of the Bible" Himself, and Paul's own words. To promote that Paul is breaking God's Laws, and teaching others to do so, is an insidious lie. but is taught by this world's religious men "Who come in Christ's Name" just the same.

For you to preach Jesus has "Done away" with the Law and Prophets, is the devils work. Will you be persuaded to be renewed in the spirit of your mind? Here is what the Jesus "of the Bible" says; Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

You really should reconsider the religion you have adopted and are promoting, and "Repent", "Turn to God" and "Do Works" worthy of repentance, as Paul teaches both Jes and Gentile.

A little clue is in Rom 3:19
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

Yes, as Paul teaches "you were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

As Paul teaches in Romans 2, this includes both Jew and Gentile because the God "of the Bible" is no respecter of persons.

If you are Jewish in the first century, you were under the law. If you are a gentile, you never were under that law.

This is your teaching, not Paul's, as his words that I posted clearly show.

And again; " 1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

God confirms this through Isaiah.

Is. 56: 6 Also the sons of the stranger, (Gentile) that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. Yes, because God is no respecter of persons.

EVERYONE, according to Paul, was under God's Law in times past.

The deceiver would have me believe Paul is a liar, that breaks God's Laws and teaches other men to break them as well. You are trying to convince me of the same thing. I hope you might be renewed in the spirit of your mind.

Another one is Gal 3:19
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

What Laws was ADDED? God Laws that define Sin?

Rom. 7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, "but by the law": for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

How can a man SIN, without the LAW?

So then, what Law was the Pharisees promoting that was "ADDED 430 years after God said "that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws". What Law did Abraham not have?

Consider Jeremiah's words.

Jer. 7: 21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.

22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

The Sacrificial Laws of Lev. 4 were not "ADDED" until after Israel's great transgression.

So what did Israel do?

24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

They Transgressed God's LAW, but God showed them mercy. It was after the Golden calf that God instituted burnt offering and sacrifices "For Sin". Abraham didn't have a commandment to bring a goat to the Levite Priest, for remission of his Sins. This "LAW" that the Pharisees were still promoting, was "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham, "because of transgressions". And it was to be in place, until the true unblemished sacrifice, the Christ, should come.

The deceiver would have men believe that there was NO LAW before Israel Transgressed, and it is using you to convince others of this deception. I am hoping you might read what is actually written about what Law was ADDED, that was Prophesied to change. And for good reason, as it isa written.

Heb. 10: 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices "for sin" thou hast had no pleasure.

This is the Law the Pharisees were still promoting, that was ADDED "Till the SEED should come". Even after the SEED came.

If you are a person who was in the Exodus and transgressed God, then that law was added for you.

Please actually read what you are preaching to others here. You are saying "I broke God's Laws" (Transgressed, Sinned) before God gave me His Laws.

Come on Mike. Surely you can see the problem with this philosophy. The Law that was "ADDED", that Abraham didn't have, was the Levitical Priesthood "burnt offering and sacrifices for sin" that God didn't give Israel in the day HE brought them out of Egypt.

Now all that remains, is to see if you will continue to justify yourself, or if you will actually read the Scriptures posted.

The other little detail here is that the Offspring came and then died and was resurrected in around AD30.

Where is the Scriptures to support this little detail?

 

[mikesw]

mikesw said The other little detail here is that the Offspring came and then died and was resurrected in around AD30.

Where is the Scriptures to support this little detail?

That is what I was afraid of. You were not aware that Jesus came and that resulted in the end of the reign of the law.

Why do you think Jews would accuse Jesus of ending the law in Matt 5:17? It was because the era of the law was coming to an end. Jesus did it by fulfilling the demands of the OT Law. Otherwise, Matt 5:17 would not make sense. You might also recognize that it was the Jews in the audience there. You are missing too many details in scripture. The Jews were beholden to the law in judgment per Matt 5:17-19 because that was what they claimed was their righteousness (Rom 9:30-33). If you also are wanting to live by the letter of the law, that is the dead end you have chosen

I have a hard time responding when everything you quote is out of context. You quote God is impartial. That happened by ending the law era that we do not have to become Jews to enjoy the benefits in Christ. But if you do not want to enjoy the benefits in Christ, you can try to remain in under the law. It is hard to track your arguments with so many misconceptions.

Then I am greatly surprised you do not know that the Offspring who came per Gal 3:19 is Jesus. You maybe are spending too much time trying to make arguments that people should still be under the law instead of in Christ. I have not seen what your general views are, but this emphasis on the letter of the law is disturbing for someone if claiming to be a Christian.

 

[Studyman]

That is what I was afraid of. You were not aware that Jesus came and that resulted in the end of the reign of the law.

I know this is a religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting to others. But there is no place in the entire Bible where it is written that the Priest of God, after the Order of Melchizedek, the Jesus "of the Bible" came to bring an end to God's Law. Not one place. Jesus and Paul teach the opposite, as their words I have posted, and you are completely ignoring clearly shows.

Why do you think Jews would accuse Jesus of ending the law in Matt 5:17?

They didn't. Please read what is actually written. Jesus was teaching His Disciples, not disobedient Jews who rejected God's Laws and created their own.

Matt. 5: 1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain ( to get away from the multitudes) and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught "them", saying, 2 "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

The religions of this world have always taught against God and His Laws. Jesus never did. The serpent in the garden did. The disobedient Jews did, the "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, do, but Jesus never did. This is an undeniable Biblical Fact. Matt. 5 was Jesus "Teaching His Disciples" no matter what generation they are born in.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may "see your good works", and "glorify your Father" which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy (Bring to an end) the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore "shall break one of these least commandments", and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness "of the scribes and Pharisees", ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

It's right there. Now you must make the choice of all men. Do you listen to and believe the Word of God which became Flesh. Or do you listen to and believe the "other voice" in the garden God placed us in?

It was because the era of the law was coming to an end. Jesus did it by fulfilling the demands of the OT Law.

Only the burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin was prophesied to End, when the True unblemished sacrifice arrived. At least according to the Holy Scriptures. Jesus is the offering for sin. The Sacrificial Law, "ADDED" because of the Golden calf, was only to be in place "Till the Seed should come".

Heb. 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

But God's Law defining righteousness, and Sin, and Holy and Clean will not pass, as long as heaven and earth are here. At least this is what the Jesus "of the bible" Teaches.

Otherwise, Matt 5:17 would not make sense. You might also recognize that it was the Jews in the audience there. You are missing too many details in scripture.

The only Jews in the audience were His Disciples. A detail you glossed over. It's written in your own Bible, will you acknowledge this?

The Jews were beholden to the law in judgment per Matt 5:17-19

All mankind, including Jesus, was beholden to God and His instruction in Righteousness. Jesus knew the deceiver promotes lawlessness and would transform itself into an apostle of Christ to deceive men. (Paul's teaching) He saw your religion coming and warned His Disciples, both then and in the future, not to listen to you in your mission to turn men away from God and His instruction. Had the Pharisees been Faithful and obedient to God, like Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, (Luke 1&2) they would have known the Christ and believed in Him, even before HE was born as they did. If you were faithful and obedient as Jesus instructs, you wouldn't be teaching falsehoods about who Jesus was teaching in Matt. 5. My hope is that you might humble yourself just a little and listen to Paul and follow His instructions to both Jew and Gentile.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. Living in iniquity, or preaching falsehoods about God's Word, are not "Works worthy of repentance".

because that was what they claimed was their righteousness (Rom 9:30-33).

Rom. 10: 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but "not according to knowledge". 3 For they "being ignorant of God's righteousness", and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Again, they rejected God's Righteousness and created their own. Please listen to what is actually written.

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well "ye reject the commandment of God", that ye may keep your own tradition.

Rom. 9: 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, (They didn't seek the Levite for remission of their sins, as per the "ADDED" Law) have attained to righteousness, (Forgivness of sins) even the righteousness which is of faith. (Obedience)

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. (Forgivness)

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, (Obedience) but as it were by the works of the law. (Bring a goat for remission of sins)For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; (The True Lamb of God)

This is easily understood if you heard Moses and Prophets. Read Isaiah 1, if you are interested in God's Truth. Here are a group of sinful, disobedient men, who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. (Titus 1:16) They reject God's commandments and create their own. They despise His Judgments and create their own.

But every week they show up at their manmade shrine of worship, offering the Blood of an innocent being, as per the Law, to Justify them of their willful disobedience. No flesh is Justified by "works of the Law". You can't spit in God's face 6 days a week, then bring an offering once a week, according to the Law, and expect to be forgiven.

The deceiver twists Paul's words to support this same religious philosophy today, that a man can call Jesus Lord, Lord, reject God's Righteousness and create their own, then show up once a week in their manmade shrine of worship, with the Righteous blood of an innocent being, as per the Law, to atone for their willful rejection of God's instruction in Righteousness.

If you also are wanting to live by the letter of the law, that is the dead end you have chosen

If I lived "by the Letter of the Law", I would be dead in trespasses and sins, because " in time past I walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

But Jesus said to "Repent" and be a "doer of His Sayings" (Go and sin no more) and Paul said to turn to God and be a "Doer of the Law". The same Law you and the Pope and Kenneth Copeland preach to the world is gone.

Jesus saw this religion coming, and truly it was already there in His Time. And therefore, told His Disciples not to even think that HE came to teach against His Father, or His Father's Inspired Words.

I still have hope and wish that you would turn away from this world's "ministers of righteousness" and actually listen to Jesus and Paul.

I have a hard time responding when everything you quote is out of context.

The Bible exposes your religious philosophy as from man and not from God. You see God's Word as out of Context because your religion is more precious to you than the Holy scriptures. My hope is that you might consider what is actually written, and if you did, you would run, not walk, away from this world's religions. As Jesus instructs;

Rev. 18: 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Apparently, God's Laws are still here at the end of this age, just as the Jesus "of the Bible" said they would be in Matt. 5:18.

You quote God is impartial.

I posted Paul's words in which he says God treats Jews and Gentiles the same.

That happened by ending the law era that we do not have to become Jews to enjoy the benefits in Christ.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision (Gentiles) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision (Jews)?

You don't have a clue what you are talking about. John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: "we know what we worship": for salvation is of the Jews.

The Words of the Jesus "of the Bible" mean something to me, my hope is that you might be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that they might someday mean something to you as well.

But if you do not want to enjoy the benefits in Christ, you can try to remain in under the law. It is hard to track your arguments with so many misconceptions.

I don't believe Jesus wants me to reject His Fathers Commandments, judgments and statutes. "Working Iniquity", would not be a benefit in Christ, at least not in the Christ "of the Bible". Yes, there will be "many" Christians in the Judgment Day, that call Jesus Lord, Lord, but have been convinced that Jesus came to bring an end to God's Laws. My wish is that you might consider that the Jesus "of the Bibles" Words are truth. "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Your preaching that Jesus brought an End to God's Word is an evil, and insidious falsehood. I wish you would study for yourself, and stop promoting this wickedness.

Then I am greatly surprised you do not know that the Offspring who came per Gal 3:19 is Jesus.

Where do you find this in any of my posts? Why do you make up falsehoods about God, and His Son, and now about me? The SEED, the "unblemished Lamb" of God, is the Christ, the ROCK, the Holy One of Israel who became a man in the Person of Jesus. He forgives the repentant man, who breaks God's Law. I still need him, and HE is still an advocate for me to His Father.

1 John 2: 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Where there is no Law, there is no sin, according to Paul. Your adopted religion, that teaches Jesus came to End God's Law, which is the same as saying Jesus came to END Sin. If SIN is gone because the LAW that defines Sin is Gone, as you preach, then why do I still need a Priest? If there is no LAW of God, then why do I still need an advocate with God?

In promoting the lie that Jesus brought an End of God's Law, and therefore and End to Sin, you are denying the Need for Christ at all.

Most deceivers won't engage in honest discussion of what is actually written, because there is no desire to Seek the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness, as Jesus also instructs.

You maybe are spending too much time trying to make arguments that people should still be under the law instead of in Christ.

Or maybe, by posting what is actually written for examination and discussion I am seek the Truth about God, which is the Head of the Christ.

I have not seen what your general views are, but this emphasis on the letter of the law is disturbing for someone if claiming to be a Christian.

You are not the first to be disturbed by what the Scriptures actually say. When Jesus showed God's words to the mainstream religions of this world in His time, "who professed to know God", they were so disturbed they killed Him for it, and the Prophets before Him.

Your reaction is fleshy, by normal for the man who refuses to "Yield himself" a servant to obey God, as Paul instructs. My hope is that you will turn to God and "come out of" whichever of the hundreds of different religious sects and businesses of this world God placed us in, that you have adopted. If you understood Paul, you would trust the Holy Scriptures to guide you, not preach to others the falsehood that Jesus came to bring them to an End.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[mikesw]

I cannot figure out your conception of scripture.
You get some unusual interpretations happening. The big one right now is saying Matt 5-7 is to the disciples. That does not match the sense that it was a broad swath of people -- great multitudes who were responding to his miracles (Matt 4:23-25). This was not disciples. It was shown to be an introduction to many aspects of what they should be aware of. This was mostly an introduction of contrasts of what they were taught to the real details. If they were seeking righteousness by the law, they could not even start to achieve that righteousness. The point about Christ fulfilling the law indicates there was nothing left for the people to do.
I don't even try to read all that you post since it first is too long and second it is filled with apparent misconceptions. Also, I cannot tell what normal Christian concepts you hold to.

 

[mikesw]

You are not the first to be disturbed by what the Scriptures actually say. When Jesus showed God's words to the mainstream religions of this world in His time, "who professed to know God", they were so disturbed they killed Him for it, and the Prophets before Him.

Your reaction is fleshy, by normal for the man who refuses to "Yield himself" a servant to obey God, as Paul instructs. My hope is that you will turn to God and "come out of" whichever of the hundreds of different religious sects and businesses of this world God placed us in, that you have adopted. If you understood Paul, you would trust the Holy Scriptures to guide you, not preach to others the falsehood that Jesus came to bring them to an End.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The obvious problem here is that you misunderstand the scriptures. That cancels out the benefit of having scripture inspired by God. You have some weird twist that has you assuming that everyone is wrong but yourself. However, scripture is not a matter of private interpretation. It is better to try to discuss what you have and get feedback rather than assuming the fight is you, as the single warrior, fighting against the whole universe.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Saul was a rabbi and a Pharisee. He didn't stop being either when he became born again. Actually, he was more able to obey the Law of Moses and please God in that obedience.
As a rabbi Saul wrote using rabbinical thought and debate schemes. His letter reveals this in many of the arguments he presents in reasoning out the Scripture. He was highly trained at the feet of one of their excellent teachers - Gamaliel, and said he was "above many my equals."
Saul was a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin, a Pharisee of Pharisees and God used that part of him to write at least 14 letters (13 if you remove Hebrews) to Jews and Jewish Christians at their various home churches he visited. He didn't start those church fellowships, but he was useful in explaining the New Covenant the children of Israel found themselves in with the Advent of their Holy Spirit of Promise (promised by God to and for the children of Israel ONLY.)