Affinity
Active Member
I'll get right on that.
Trinitarian Training
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
Runningman
Active Member
Cool. You got any other fancy tricks up your sleeve to try to trick people into thinking God is a trinity?
civic
Active Member
the Word is a person, nice try. Things do not create the world and all that it contains.
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Runningman
Active Member
Things are a person when they are personified. The word of God is a thing that is personified repeatedly in Psalms. Why would it suddenly be any different in John?
Blessed
Active Member
Not cool. You either believe in the trinity or you don't. No need to trick anyone.
civic
Active Member
nope there is zero "personification" in John 1:1-4.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
Col 1:16-17
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
We see above that creation of all things(panta- no exceptions and is all inclusive) were made by Him and solely for Him. They were created for His good pleasure. And without Him nothing was made that was made(see John 1:1-3).
Also since we see He is before all things created then logic and reason dictates that He is Eternal and not part of any creation. He is distinct and separate from created as the Creator.
Here we see that Paul completely exhausts the creation categories:
1)all things created
2)things in heaven
3)things in the earth
4) things visible
5)things invisible
6)thrones,dominions,rulers,authorities
7)the above mentioned things rule out any exceptions
Now we also see from the Apostle Paul that He(Christ) is BEFORE all things and that all things in Him subsist or are held together.
Now tell me Who other than the Almighty God known as YHWH is before all things, created all things and holds the very universe together?
The answer none but God. And Paul tells us in the context that Jesus is the very image of the invisible God. He made the unknown known, the invisible God became visible in the flesh. This is the Incarnation where we see in Christ God was manifest in the flesh. God became man as John's prologue so eloquently spells out in verses 1-18.
So can you like the Author of Hebrews, Paul, Thomas, Peter and John confess Jesus is your God, your Creator?
hope this helps,
Runningman
Active Member
Then why did no one ever agree with John in the entire Bible? Scripture teaches the Father alone is the Creator.
For example, the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth, a title never given to Jesus, yet it is given to God (Matthew 11:25, Acts 17:24,25). God is the creator, not Jesus, and John proved he didn't believe Jesus was God in Acts 4:23-31.
How would you explain your contradiction without personification?
civic
Active Member
Runningman
Active Member
The trinity is indeed a trick since the Bible doesn't teach anyone to believe in it.
Runningman
Active Member
You posted what I said is personification. Are you withdrawing from the conversation now?
civic
Active Member
There is no personification I debunked that since the Son is the creator and existed before all created THINGS. That eliminates your theory He was a thing in John 1:1 and not a Person.
The Son is before creation. Both Son and Father were together sharing the same Glory together with one another as per John 17:1-5 and John 17:24. This parallels John 1:1, Colossians 1:15-17, Hebrews 1:8-10, 1 Corinthians 8:6 and several other passages in scripture declaring His active role in Creation with the Father.
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The Bible certainly speaks of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three distinct and separate beings. How you wish to interpret that is. of course, up to you.
Runningman
Active Member
Affinity
Active Member
They trinity is in no way a trick. Teaching the Trinity is foundational to Christianity because it provides a framework for understanding God as one being in three co-equal, co-eternal persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. This doctrine is central to a Christian's understanding of God's nature, his relationship with humanity, and the basis for salvation, Christian worship, and living.
Runningman
Active Member
And 1 John 1:1-3 refers to the Word as a thing. There are several examples of the Word not being Jesus, one of them is in Revelation 20. The Old Testament doesn't contain a character named the Word in the beginning with God, etc. Yet the Word as creative, and embodying generally the divine will, is personified in Hebrew poetry (Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11) so it looks like you don't have any proof for your assertions.
civic
Active Member
Read below
Hebrews 1:8-12.
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
Runningman
Active Member
Debunked by John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6.
Jesus isn't the same party as God or mankind for whom he mediates for. Hence Jesus is a human mediator, not God.
1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Runningman
Active Member
Hebrews 1:8-9 is quoted from Psalm 45:6,7 where it's talking about a human king with a queen who was exalted by his God. Most commentators agree that is Solomon in Psalm 45 and we know Solomon isn't God. So when it was transferred to Jesus in Hebrews 1:8,9 it doesn't transfer deity to Jesus. Elohim just refers to being a judge, ruler, or magistrate in this context, which is what Solomon is.Read below
Hebrews 1:8-12.
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
Hebrews 1:10 refers to the God who anointed Jesus in Hebrews 1:9. Keep those Unitarian verses coming.
civic
Active Member
John 17:3 and 1 Corinthians 8:6 refutes uitarinism and 100% supports the Trinity.
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Runningman
Active Member
Now that is a new one! Most of you won't touch those Unitarian prooftexts with a 10 foot poll. So what is your workaround for those clearly and explicitly stating the Father is the one and only true God? Let me guess, deny everything and run away?
