civic
Active Member
I have been debunking unitarians for over 40 years with their own verses.
its as easy as taking away candy from a baby.
Trinitarian Training
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its as easy as taking away candy from a baby.
Lions Mane
Active Member
God as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or simply the Trinity. Is our belief as Christians states that God is one being who exists as three co-equal and co-eternal persons, who are distinct yet inseparable. The Father is the source, the Son (Jesus Christ) accomplished salvation, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God who empowers believers.
Why would anyone not believe that? Are they listening to the wrong spirt perhaps?
"Listening to the wrong spirit" can refer to giving heed to deceptive voices or thoughts that lead away from truth and goodness, often characterized by accusations, shame, and promotion of self-will. These are contrasted with the Holy Spirit, which guides, advocates, and leads to life-change and forgiveness. To discern and stop listening to these negative influences, one can resist them through prayer, affirm one's identity in faith, redirect one's focus to spiritual practices, and consult with trusted spiritual or Christian counselors.
Why would anyone not believe that? Are they listening to the wrong spirt perhaps?
"Listening to the wrong spirit" can refer to giving heed to deceptive voices or thoughts that lead away from truth and goodness, often characterized by accusations, shame, and promotion of self-will. These are contrasted with the Holy Spirit, which guides, advocates, and leads to life-change and forgiveness. To discern and stop listening to these negative influences, one can resist them through prayer, affirm one's identity in faith, redirect one's focus to spiritual practices, and consult with trusted spiritual or Christian counselors.
Runningman
Active Member
Funny, would love to see you attempt to take away the words about the Father being the only true God from the Bible. I have a feeling you will argue until you're blue in the face, but even you can't change the Bible civic. Don't get ahead of yourself.I have been debunking unitarians for over 40 years with their own verses.
its as easy as taking away candy from a baby.
It speaks of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God.
civic
Active Member
we have the Son declaring this in John 17:5- And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed. In John 17:3 Jesus declares He and the Father together are eternal life- They are equal.
The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory
These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.
John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"
John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.
Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.
John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."
Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world
John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
continued:
Below we see Scripture affirms the Sons pre-existence prior to the Incarnation.
John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Notice above its the Son with the Father sharing the same glory together with Hm before creation, before the world came into existence. The same below. The Word who was God is the Son. Scripture interprets scripture. Hermeneutics 101.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son).
Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9;You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
Colossians 1:15-19
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
And Here Jesus who is both God and man says that the Father sent the Son. This shows the Son existing before becoming man.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
John tells us the same below:
1 John 4:9
This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.
1 John 4:10
10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
As does Paul below:
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, / to redeem those under the law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.
You cannot send Someone who does not exist, ie the Son.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
1 John 4:9. toward us—Greek, "in our case."
sent—Greek, "hath sent."
into the world—a proof against Socinians, that the Son existed before He was "sent into the world." Otherwise, too, He could not have been our life (1Jo 4:9), our "propitiation" (1Jo 4:10), or our "Saviour" (1Jo 4:14). It is the grand proof of God's love, His having sent "His only-begotten Son, that we might live through Him," who is the Life, and who has redeemed our forfeited life; and it is also the grand motive to our mutual love.
1 John 1:1-4
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 3:8- The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
We clearly see the Father in the O.T.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Deu 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
And the Son
Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like the son of god
Psalm 2:12
Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?What is His name or His son’s name?
Daniel 7:13
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like the son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”
“Matthew’s use of ‘know’ ([epiginōskō is pronounced eh-pea-gih-noh-skoh, and the “g” is hard as in “get”] the present tense is gnomic, knowledge shared in eternal past, present, and eternal future) here is critical … it is likely that there is perfective force in the prefix [epi] –with the meaning ‘know exactly, completely, through and through’ (BAGD, 291), with the added idea of recognizing and acknowledging” (comment on 11:27).
The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism (Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament[Zondervan, 2010], p. 440). https://drjimsebt.com/2023/04/17/when-did-jesus-become-the-son-of-god/
John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. (John 5:26)
This grant cannot be temporary because the Father also has life in himself eternally. Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this.
John 17:24:
24 Father, those whom you have given me, I want them to be with me where I am, so that they may see my glory which you have given me because you have loved me before the foundation of the world. (My translation)
Being a Father implies a Son. What was the Father doing before the foundation or creation of the world? He was loving his Son.
John 1:18 says: “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” Jesus more fully reveals their status and nature–Father and Son–beyond God and Logos. Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth.
Jesus says that he was in the presence of the Father: “I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence” […] (John 8:38). The term “presence” can be translated as “alongside” or “next to” the Father. The point: they were in close relationship as we see in John 1:1-2, 14 and 17:5. This relationship in the Father’s presence happened before the incarnation. To be the Father, he had to have at least one son in his presence. That Son is Jesus.
Hebrews 1:2 says: “but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” That verse says that the Son was the person through whom God made the universe. He was the Son before creation, long before his birth. That verses also identifies who the Logos was in John 1:1-4.
Hebrews 1:3:
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being […] (Heb. 1:3)
God’s radiance and his being are eternal because light that does not radiate is not light, and God’s being is not temporary with a beginning; therefore the Son is also eternal
conclusion: this debate is over the Son is Eternal just as the Father is Eternal and the Holy Spirit is Eternal. We call Them the Trinity- One God, 3 Persons identified as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
So much for unitarianism.
hope this helps !!!
Below we see Scripture affirms the Sons pre-existence prior to the Incarnation.
John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Notice above its the Son with the Father sharing the same glory together with Hm before creation, before the world came into existence. The same below. The Word who was God is the Son. Scripture interprets scripture. Hermeneutics 101.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son).
Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9;You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.
Colossians 1:15-19
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
And Here Jesus who is both God and man says that the Father sent the Son. This shows the Son existing before becoming man.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
John tells us the same below:
1 John 4:9
This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.
1 John 4:10
10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
As does Paul below:
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, / to redeem those under the law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.
You cannot send Someone who does not exist, ie the Son.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
1 John 4:9. toward us—Greek, "in our case."
sent—Greek, "hath sent."
into the world—a proof against Socinians, that the Son existed before He was "sent into the world." Otherwise, too, He could not have been our life (1Jo 4:9), our "propitiation" (1Jo 4:10), or our "Saviour" (1Jo 4:14). It is the grand proof of God's love, His having sent "His only-begotten Son, that we might live through Him," who is the Life, and who has redeemed our forfeited life; and it is also the grand motive to our mutual love.
1 John 1:1-4
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 3:8- The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.
We clearly see the Father in the O.T.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Deu 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
And the Son
Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like the son of god
Psalm 2:12
Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?What is His name or His son’s name?
Daniel 7:13
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like the son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
Matthew 11:27: “All these things have been given to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father and anyone to whom the Son of Man decides to reveal him.”
“Matthew’s use of ‘know’ ([epiginōskō is pronounced eh-pea-gih-noh-skoh, and the “g” is hard as in “get”] the present tense is gnomic, knowledge shared in eternal past, present, and eternal future) here is critical … it is likely that there is perfective force in the prefix [epi] –with the meaning ‘know exactly, completely, through and through’ (BAGD, 291), with the added idea of recognizing and acknowledging” (comment on 11:27).
The bottom line is that the Greek present tense is timeless and supports the notion that the Father and Son knew each other intimately for eternity, in the past, present and future—forever. Jesus did not become the Son at his birth or baptism (Matthew: Zondervan Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament[Zondervan, 2010], p. 440). https://drjimsebt.com/2023/04/17/when-did-jesus-become-the-son-of-god/
John 5:26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. (John 5:26)
This grant cannot be temporary because the Father also has life in himself eternally. Therefore the Son also has life in himself eternally–just as the Father has this.
John 17:24:
24 Father, those whom you have given me, I want them to be with me where I am, so that they may see my glory which you have given me because you have loved me before the foundation of the world. (My translation)
Being a Father implies a Son. What was the Father doing before the foundation or creation of the world? He was loving his Son.
John 1:18 says: “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” Jesus more fully reveals their status and nature–Father and Son–beyond God and Logos. Therefore the Father was in heaven with his Son before the incarnation and birth.
Jesus says that he was in the presence of the Father: “I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence” […] (John 8:38). The term “presence” can be translated as “alongside” or “next to” the Father. The point: they were in close relationship as we see in John 1:1-2, 14 and 17:5. This relationship in the Father’s presence happened before the incarnation. To be the Father, he had to have at least one son in his presence. That Son is Jesus.
Hebrews 1:2 says: “but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” That verse says that the Son was the person through whom God made the universe. He was the Son before creation, long before his birth. That verses also identifies who the Logos was in John 1:1-4.
Hebrews 1:3:
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being […] (Heb. 1:3)
God’s radiance and his being are eternal because light that does not radiate is not light, and God’s being is not temporary with a beginning; therefore the Son is also eternal
conclusion: this debate is over the Son is Eternal just as the Father is Eternal and the Holy Spirit is Eternal. We call Them the Trinity- One God, 3 Persons identified as Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
So much for unitarianism.
hope this helps !!!
Runningman
Active Member
As I told you before, you can't make John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, and Ephesians 4:6 go away as they each explicitly and clearly identify God as the Father only. Since the Father is the only true God, some serious guardrails are put up that completely invalidate your opinions about what the Bible says. Also, the Bible still doesn't describe God as triune. Cherry picking verses around the Bible to attach to an idea not in the Bible isn't how this works and it's called eisegesis.
John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.
Ephesians 4
6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Runningman
Active Member
For now.
Blessed
Active Member
And for evermore.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
When sorrows, like sea billows, roll,
Whatever my lot, thou hast taught me to say,
It is well, it is well with my soul.
Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
Let this blessed assurance control,
That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
And has shed his own blood for my soul.
My sin—O the bliss of this glorious thought!—
My sin, not in part, but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more:
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!
For me be it Christ, be it Christ hence to live!
If Jordan above me shall roll,
No pang shall be mine, for in death as in life
Thou wilt whisper thy peace to my soul.
But Lord ’tis for thee, for thy coming we wait;
The sky, not the grave, is our goal;
O trump of the Angel! O voice of the Lord! Blessed hope!
Blessed rest of my soul.
Runningman
Active Member
It's going to be strange with trinitarians in heaven as us Christians sing about God on the throne and the Lamb as someone separate from God.
Revelation 7
9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”
Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Blessed
Active Member
No worries as "us Christians" will all understand the Trinity then.
Jesus is clearly divine in His nature, always has been always will be,
civic
Active Member
Jesus and Paul made the case for me and against you since both passages have the Son existing before creation and acting as Creator.
Next fallacy
Runningman
Active Member
The Bible says you can also have a divine nature, though I haven't found many trinitarians who want it. Do you?
2 Peter 1
4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Runningman
Active Member
Your theories about God being a trinity are not compatible with Scripture's clear and explicit declarations about the one and only true God being the Father. The Bible does provide some guard rails about this particular topic and you aren't meant to press the gas and speed through them. You have been provided the correct way to rightly divide the Scripture in light of the Father's exclusive deity.
synergy
Active Member
It's always hilarious whenever unitarians ignorantly and shamelessly promote John 17:3 as a unitarian verse. Each component of that verse radiates the Deity of the Jesus.
“This is eternal life”:
Eternal life is something only God can grant (Isa 43:11). Eternal life is God Himself, as confirmed by Jesus when he said, "I am the Resurrection and the Life" (John 11:25). Thus, the gift of eternal life is God Himself, the gift of the Holy Spirit Himself to be more exact. John 17:3 begins with an action that already identifies the Deity of Christ.
“That they may know You…”:
Eternal life is found in a singular "You" who the verse goes on to explain is both the Father and the Son, not in dividing the Deity of the Father from the Son as unitarians shamelessly do. It is manifestly clear that that "there is salvation in no other One.." other than Jesus (Acts 4:12) which proves again that Jesus is God because only God is the Savior (Isa 43:11).
“…the only true God, and Jesus Christ”
There is no mention here that only the Father is the only true God, as unitarians always attempt to dupe everyone into believing. That would directly contradict John 1:1c where it is explicitly mentioned that “the Word was God.” John’s Gospel never restricts Deity to the Father alone; rather, it reveals the Son as fully divine and distinct in person yet one in essence (cf. John 10:30, 20:28), proving Jesus is God. It is also manifestly ridiculous to say that the universe was created through a "personification". It's time that unitarians grew up from that kindergarten fairy tale view of things.
“…whom You have sent.”
The term “sent” (ἀπέστειλας) refers to the mission of the pre-existent Word. John 1:1–2 already affirms this: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [πρὸς τὸν Θεόν — face to face with God].” This face-to-face relationship signifies distinct Personhood within the unity of God - the same Person who pre-existed and was sent to the world by God. This is confirmed by the following verses:
- John 3:17 – “God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”
- John 6:38 – “I have come down from heaven, not to do My will but the will of Him who sent Me.”
- John 8:42 – “I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.”
- John 16:28 – “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”
Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!
Runningman
Active Member
Belief in God and Jesus aren't the same beliefs:
John 14
1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well.
Therefore, believing the only true God sent Jesus requires believing the only true God isn't Jesus:
Hear Jesus words and believe Him who sent Jesus to have eternal life.
John 5
24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
The Father, the only true God, sent Jesus.
John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
Lions Mane
Active Member
You got that right!
synergy
Active Member
Here Jesus is calling His disciples to the same level of absolute belief in Him that they have in God - an act that would be idolatrous if He were not truly God (Jer 17:5-7).
John 5:24 is a perfectly Trinitarian verse in that we need to believe both the Father and Jesus to have eternal life. That’s because eternal life comes only from God (Isaiah 43:11) and only from Jesus (Acts 4:12), which makes Jesus God.
As usual, you did not address any of the points I made about John 17:3 but ran away from them as fast as your little legs can carry you. Here are my points again. Either you address them or it's automatically Case Closed:
Each component of John 17:3 radiates the Deity of the Jesus:
“This is eternal life”:
Eternal life is something only God can grant (Isa 43:11). Eternal life is God Himself, as confirmed by Jesus when he said, "I am the Resurrection and the Life" (John 11:25). Thus, the gift of eternal life is God Himself, the gift of the Holy Spirit Himself to be more exact. John 17:3 begins with an action that already identifies the Deity of Christ.
“That they may know You…”:
Eternal life is found in a singular "You" who the verse goes on to explain is both the Father and the Son, not in dividing the Deity of the Father from the Son as unitarians shamelessly do. It is manifestly clear that that "there is salvation in no other One.." other than Jesus (Acts 4:12) which proves again that Jesus is God because only God is the Savior (Isa 43:11).
“…the only true God, and Jesus Christ”
There is no mention here that only the Father is the only true God, as unitarians always attempt to dupe everyone into believing. That would directly contradict John 1:1c where it is explicitly mentioned that “the Word was God.” John’s Gospel never restricts Deity to the Father alone; rather, it reveals the Son as fully divine and distinct in person yet one in essence (cf. John 10:30, 20:28), proving Jesus is God. It is also manifestly ridiculous to say that the universe was created through a "personification". It's time that unitarians grew up from that kindergarten fairy tale view of things.
“…whom You have sent.”
The term “sent” (ἀπέστειλας) refers to the mission of the pre-existent Word. John 1:1–2 already affirms this: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [πρὸς τὸν Θεόν — face to face with God].” This face-to-face relationship signifies distinct Personhood within the unity of God - the same Person who pre-existed and was sent to the world by God. This is confirmed by the following verses:
- John 3:17 – “God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”
- John 6:38 – “I have come down from heaven, not to do My will but the will of Him who sent Me.”
- John 8:42 – “I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.”
- John 16:28 – “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”
Thanks for sharing Isaiah 43:11. I had not looked up Savior passages in the NT before. Here are some
Luke 1:47
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Luke 2:11
11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
John 4:42
42 and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.”
Acts 5:31
31 “He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 13:23
23 “From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus,
Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
