Trinitarian Training

[mikesw]

Trinitarianism is just one of the many heresies that abound about God. It's the easiest one to refute as well. You all lack the advantage of having Scripture to support a trinitarian model of God. I understand you have your beliefs, but the Bible doesn't support them.

God is one person known as the Father. John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, etc.

I am starting to think you are just an AI bot that cannot go beyond its training vectors.

 

[Runningman]

I am starting to think you are just an AI bot that cannot go beyond its training vectors.

It's sad that AI has a better spiritual compass than you all.

 

[mikesw]

It's sad that AI has a better spiritual compass than you all.

Haha. AI has no compass. That is the problem. It just repeats whatever is stored in it. Some people see it as being a spiritual guide. Pretty awful

 

[FreeInChrist]

Why do you not believe the Father is the only true God, the one God for Christians, etc? That's what the Bible says. If you don't want to believe then don't. No one is trying to force you, but if you enter into Bible discussion then your trinitarian propaganda will get refuted, just so we're clear, and I say that to every trinitarian on this board.

JOHN 17: 20-21 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

JOHN 10:30 I and My Father are one.”
JOHN 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
ISAIAH 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
1 JOHN 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

If you cannot see the tie of the Father to the Son as = both GOD

What I see is that there is one God. Period. in whom we are all baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit because these three are our God. PERIOD

 

[synergy]

The Bible doesn't say "God is a man" or anything close to that. Use the evidence you're provided and don't add to it. That's how real life works too. We don't accuse people of saying things they never said. So why do you accuse God of doing something He never said He'd do and why do you accuse Jesus of being God when he never claimed to?

The Bible does say that the Word, who was God, became flesh and dwelt amongst people as Jesus. It doesn't say "the Word was a personfication". Use the evidence you're provided and don't add to it. That's how real life works too. We don't accuse people of saying things they never said. So why do you accuse God of being something He never was and why do you accuse the Word, who was God and dwelt amongst people as Jesus, of being an abstract personification which he never claimed to be?

 

[mikesw]

The Bible does say that the Word, who was God, became flesh and dwelt amongst people as Jesus. It doesn't say "the Word was a personfication". Use the evidence you're provided and don't add to it. That's how real life works too. We don't accuse people of saying things they never said. So why do you accuse God of being something He never was and why do you accuse the Word, who was God and dwelt amongst people as Jesus, of being an abstract personification which he never claimed to be?

I shared a concept of Word used as a placeholder for the divine One who had no distinguishing name in the OT. This idea likely can stand along with Word being a true designation of the Son of God.
= = =
First, an old thing was realizing that John is answering who the Word is in response to Philo's writing on the topic. John also appeals to the Greek interest in logos.

I generally have seen Jesus in the logos sense as being the message of God to humanity. He became flesh to be the message as the way that humanity would know for sure what God is doing. We similarly see in the Free in Christ's post that the Word of God came to the prophets. Jesus is shown to be the bridge between the unseen God and the God that is heard. In this fashion Jesus is not as the prophet but is the one who informs the prophet -- not to neglect that Jesus is the Prophet like unto Moses.

I will take a momentary liberty to say the logos in John 1 is not the name of the divine Son who became incarnate -- while keeping a finger on Rev 19:13 that shows him as that Word. This is a placeholder concept probably to identify the second person of the Trinity without having an identifiable name -- perhaps that the Son is a later designation or revelation. Also, the use of logos at creation can be anachronistic, since there was no one in creation to hear the _message_. On the other hand, the universe was created by the logos. So there is a tie in with Heb 11:3 regarding the "word of God." In a fashion then, it can be acceptable to recognize the logos in John 1 as the message or equivalent to the spoken word but only inasmuch as that is an identifier of the unnamed Son of God who then is incarnate among humanity.

In all this, Jesus is the Word behind creation and then is the message giver to the prophets of old. He became incarnate. He died bodily at the cross and was resurrected while continuing to be divine and body and flesh. Though, I'm not sure how that last point works since we do not see him physically among us. (I might have to think on that some more.)

 

[synergy]

I shared a concept of Word used as a placeholder for the divine One who had no distinguishing name in the OT. This idea likely can stand along with Word being a true designation of the Son of God.
= = =
First, an old thing was realizing that John is answering who the Word is in response to Philo's writing on the topic. John also appeals to the Greek interest in logos.

I generally have seen Jesus in the logos sense as being the message of God to humanity. He became flesh to be the message as the way that humanity would know for sure what God is doing. We similarly see in the Free in Christ's post that the Word of God came to the prophets. Jesus is shown to be the bridge between the unseen God and the God that is heard. In this fashion Jesus is not as the prophet but is the one who informs the prophet -- not to neglect that Jesus is the Prophet like unto Moses.

I will take a momentary liberty to say the logos in John 1 is not the name of the divine Son who became incarnate -- while keeping a finger on Rev 19:13 that shows him as that Word. This is a placeholder concept probably to identify the second person of the Trinity without having an identifiable name -- perhaps that the Son is a later designation or revelation. Also, the use of logos at creation can be anachronistic, since there was no one in creation to hear the _message_. On the other hand, the universe was created by the logos. So there is a tie in with Heb 11:3 regarding the "word of God." In a fashion then, it can be acceptable to recognize the logos in John 1 as the message or equivalent to the spoken word but only inasmuch as that is an identifier of the unnamed Son of God who then is incarnate among humanity.

In all this, Jesus is the Word behind creation and then is the message giver to the prophets of old. He became incarnate. He died bodily at the cross and was resurrected while continuing to be divine and body and flesh. Though, I'm not sure how that last point works since we do not see him physically among us. (I might have to think on that some more.)

John probably wrote with the awareness of both Philo’s philosophical use of Logos as the mediating principle of reason and the Greek fascination with the concept of divine reason, yet he transforms it by identifying the Logos as a Living, Personal Deity, God Himself who “was with God and was God.” As I'm sure you know, Jesus is not merely the message but the Messenger and Author of revelation: the same divine Word through whom all creation came into being, who spoke to the prophets, and who later took on flesh. Revelation 19:13 confirms that Logos ultimately becomes His revealed title—“His name is called the Word of God.” Thus, Logos identifies the eternal Icon of the Father Himself, the One who bridges the unseen Father and the world, the eternal Word who became truly human, died, rose bodily, and is both Deity and Incarnate, the Theoanthropos, the God-man.

 

[mikesw]

John probably wrote with the awareness of both Philo’s philosophical use of Logos as the mediating principle of reason and the Greek fascination with the concept of divine reason, yet he transforms it by identifying the Logos as a Living, Personal Deity, God Himself who “was with God and was God.” As I'm sure you know, Jesus is not merely the message but the Messenger and Author of revelation: the same divine Word through whom all creation came into being, who spoke to the prophets, and who later took on flesh. Revelation 19:13 confirms that Logos ultimately becomes His revealed title—“His name is called the Word of God.” Thus, Logos identifies the eternal Icon of the Father Himself, the One who bridges the unseen Father and the world, the eternal Word who became truly human, died, rose bodily, and is both Deity and Incarnate, the Theoanthropos, the God-man.

Sure. I shared that John 1 was likely written to show Jesus as the logos that Philo wrote about. And logos also answers the concept of logos of the Greco-Roman philosophers and culture. So the appeal of John 1 is quite broad, not just a sudden idea that popped into his head.

 

[amazing grace]

You have no idea what you are talking about since the bible contradicts your doctrine. The Messiah is Divine and it was in prophecy that God would dwell with people by becoming human.

How much proof from the OT does a person need to confess our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is God and Eternal ?

Zechariah 2:8-13
For this is what the Lord Almighty says: "After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you — for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye — 9 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me.10 "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the Lord. 11 "Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the Lord, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."

YHWH came and lived among them- it was Christ

Jeremiah 23:5-6
"The days are coming," declares the Lord,
"when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The Lord Our Righteousness.

The above is YHWH- The Lord our Righteousness who is Christ

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

Micah 5:2
"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity."

Daniel 7:9-14
I kept looking Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 "A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
11 "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12 "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.13 "I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Malachi 3:1-3
"Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 "And He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness.

Above its the Lord YHWH who comes to His temple. That was Christ

Malachi 4:5-6
"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

Zechariah 12:1-10
This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the Lord. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.'6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.7 "The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Above the One who is pierced is YHWH.

Matthew 1:22-24
22 Now all this took place that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us."

conclusion: The Old Testament, however, does not speak of the Messiah as merely a human, but as God (Psalm 45:6; cf. Hebrews 1:8), God with us (Isaiah 7:14), mighty God (Isaiah 9:6; cf. 10:21), the Lord (Psalm 110:13), and the Lord (יהוה) is our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6). The New Testament authors also speak of Jesus (the Son) being active in the Old Testament (1 Corinthians 10:4, 9; Hebrews 1:2–3, 8–10; Jude 54). Moreover, the New Testament authors apply the divine name יהוה (YHWH) to Jesus (Hebrews 1:10; cf. Psalm 102:25–27). Israel’s belief in one God was firmly grounded in the introductory words of the Shema, the Hebrew confession that includes the central tenets of their faith: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4). In the first century, the early churches’ belief in one God set them apart from the polytheistic practices of the Greco-Roman pantheon (made up of many gods).

When the Apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians, he was writing to Greek-speaking people who had come out of Greco-Roman culture. The Scriptures the Corinthians would have been familiar with was the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint, LXX). In 1 Corinthians 8, the Apostle Paul rejects the many “gods” and “lords” of Greco-Roman culture (1 Corinthians 8:4–5; cf. Deuteronomy 10:17) and affirms there is but one God (1 Corinthians 8:6). Paul does this by referring to Deuteronomy 6:4from the LXX. In 1 Corinthians 8:6 when Paul refers to the Father, he uses the Greek word θεὸς (theos), which is a translation of the Hebrew word אֱלֹהֵינוּ (ʾĕlōhênû), but when he refers to Jesus, he uses the Greek word κύριος (kyrios),5 which is a translation of the Hebrew word יהוה (YHWH).aig

hope this helps !!!

In examining Scripture, two facts become clear. First, God is a Spirit and does not possess human characteristics or limitations. Second, all the evidence contained in Scripture agrees that God revealed Himself to mankind in a male form. To begin, God’s true nature needs to be understood. God is a Person, obviously, because God exhibits all the characteristics of personhood: God has a mind, a will, an intellect, and emotions. God communicates and He has relationships, and God’s personal actions are evidenced throughout Scripture.

As John 4:24 states, “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” Since God is a spiritual being, He does not possess physical human characteristics. However, sometimes figurative language used in Scripture assigns human characteristics to God in order to make it possible for man to understand God. This assignment of human characteristics to describe God is called “anthropomorphism.” Anthropomorphism is simply a means for God (a spiritual being) to communicate truth about His nature to humanity, physical beings. Since humanity is physical, we are limited in our understanding of those things beyond the physical realm; therefore, anthropomorphism in Scripture helps us to understand who God is.

Some of the difficulty comes in examining the fact that humanity is created in God’s image. Genesis 1:26-27 says, “Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.’ So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

Both man and woman are created in the image of God, in that they are greater than all the other creations as they, like God, have a mind, will, intellect, emotions, and moral capacity. Animals do not possess a moral capacity and do not possess an immaterial component like humanity does. The image of God is the spiritual component that humanity alone possesses. God created humanity to have a relationship with Him. Humanity is the only creation designed for that purpose.

That said, man and woman are only patterned after the image of God—they are not tiny “copies” of God. The fact that there are men and women does not require God to have male and female features. Remember, being made in the image of God has nothing to do with physical characteristics.

We know that God is a spiritual being and does not possess physical characteristics. This does not limit, however, how God may choose to reveal Himself to humanity. Scripture contains all the revelation God gave to humanity about Himself, and so it is the only objective source of information about God. In looking at what Scripture tells us, there are several observations of evidence about the form in which God revealed Himself to humanity.

Scripture contains approximately 170 references to God as the “Father.” By necessity, one cannot be a father unless one is male. If God had chosen to be revealed to man in a female form, then the word “mother” would have occurred in these places, not “father.” In the Old and New Testaments, masculine pronouns are used over and over again in reference to God.

Jesus Christ referred to God as the Father several times and in other cases used masculine pronouns in reference to God. In the Gospels alone, Christ uses the term “Father” in direct reference to God nearly 160 times. Of particular interest is Christ’s statement in John 10:30: “I and the Father are one.” Obviously, Jesus Christ came in the form of a human man to die on the cross as payment for the sins of the world. Like God the Father, Jesus was revealed to humanity in a male form. Scripture records numerous other instances where Christ utilized masculine nouns and pronouns in reference to God.

The New Testament Epistles (from Acts to Revelation) also contain nearly 900 verses where the word theos—a masculine noun in the Greek—is used in direct reference to God. In countless references to God in Scripture, there is clearly a consistent pattern of His being referred to with masculine titles, nouns, and pronouns. While God is not a man, He chose a masculine form in order to reveal Himself to humanity. Likewise, Jesus Christ, who is constantly referred to with masculine titles, nouns, and pronouns, took a male form while He walked on the earth. The prophets of the Old Testament and the apostles of the New Testament refer to both God and Jesus Christ with masculine names and titles. God chose to be revealed in this form in order for man to more easily grasp who He is. While God makes allowances in order to help us understand Him, it is important to not try to “force God into a box,” so to speak, by placing limitations on Him that are not appropriate to His nature.

@civic, @FreeInChrist ---- I am going to respond to you both in this post. The above posts contain endless rhetoric from other sources which you both cut and pasted to invalidate the scripture which I previously used. You should be able to defend your doctrine with your own words --- inserting small quotes if needed ---- making note of the source. It wouldn't matter anyway if I took the time and responded to each point in the above -- you each would again try to invalidate solid scripture just to hold on to your doctrine which in truth teaches 'another Jesus' from the one the apostles taught.

I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism,one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. . . . . And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

 

[mikesw]

@civic, @FreeInChrist ---- I am going to respond to you both in this post. The above posts contain endless rhetoric from other sources which you both cut and pasted to invalidate the scripture which I previously used. You should be able to defend your doctrine with your own words --- inserting small quotes if needed ---- making note of the source. It wouldn't matter anyway if I took the time and responded to each point in the above -- you each would again try to invalidate solid scripture just to hold on to your doctrine which in truth teaches 'another Jesus' from the one the apostles taught.

I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism,one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. . . . . And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

wow. now you are claiming Jesus is many people. All you do however is deny all the passages of Jesus' pre-existence and say you have made an argument

 

[Runningman]

JOHN 17: 20-21 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

JOHN 10:30 I and My Father are one.”
JOHN 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
ISAIAH 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
1 JOHN 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

If you cannot see the tie of the Father to the Son as = both GOD View attachment 2476

What I see is that there is one God. Period. in whom we are all baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit because these three are our God. PERIOD

These verses don't come to the conclusion that Jesus is God though. Did you see anyone tie it all together and say something to the effect of "and that means Jesus is God incarnate?" They did not because they didn't believe anything like that. You're misrepresenting the context.

There are other documented saviors aside from God and Jesus in the Bible. Others who are one with God aside from Jesus in the Bible. Others who have seen/known the Father without seeing Jesus, and dozens of other things people said that don't come into agreement with your conclusion.

Instead of just going back and forth, I think you should try to be a bit more direct since this is a "trinitarian training" thread. I asked someone else this, I believe, but he didn't want to answer I guess. What is something Jesus did that clearly demonstrates he is God in your view?

 

[Runningman]

wow. now you are claiming Jesus is many people. All you do however is deny all the passages of Jesus' pre-existence and say you have made an argument

Utter nonsense.

 

[Runningman]

The Bible does say that the Word, who was God, became flesh and dwelt amongst people as Jesus. It doesn't say "the Word was a personfication". Use the evidence you're provided and don't add to it. That's how real life works too. We don't accuse people of saying things they never said. So why do you accuse God of being something He never was and why do you accuse the Word, who was God and dwelt amongst people as Jesus, of being an abstract personification which he never claimed to be?

John 1:1-14 is in line with Jesus being created.

 

[mikesw]

Utter nonsense.

i agree your approach is utter nonsense. Sorry I did not say it that clearly earlier.

 

[mikesw]

John 1:1-14 is in line with Jesus being created.

so now you say God is created everyday.

 

[Runningman]

i agree your approach is utter nonsense. Sorry I did not say it that clearly earlier.

I was talking about what you said.

 

[Runningman]

so now you say God is created everyday.

John taught the Word is not God, but rather a thing in 1 John 1:1-3.

John also taught Jesus was created.

John 1
3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus explicitly stated that he is a creation:

Revelation 3
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

 

[mikesw]

John taught the Word is not God, but rather a thing in 1 John 1:1-3.

John also taught Jesus was created.

John 1
3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Wow. you finally reversed you view and now share that Jesus is the one called the Word. since everything was made through him, you must be saying he made himself.
Then the common translation in John 1:14 is "And the Word became flesh." You previously showed he is the Word who was God and was with God. This is good you are intentionally pointing to the divinity of Christ finally. I know it is extremely difficult to avoid the divinity passages.

Jesus explicitly stated that he is a creation:

Revelation 3
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

We see this, in the proper reading, is how he is the origin of the creation of God. Again you place him before creation rather than part of it. You are getting closer to seeing the true one sent from heaven.

 

[Runningman]

Wow. you finally reversed you view and now share that Jesus is the one called the Word. since everything was made through him, you must be saying he made himself.
Then the common translation in John 1:14 is "And the Word became flesh." You previously showed he is the Word who was God and was with God. This is good you are intentionally pointing to the divinity of Christ finally. I know it is extremely difficult to avoid the divinity passages.

That is not what I said at all. I said the Word is a thing just like apostle John wrote through divine inspiration in 1 John 1:1-3. Just pretending I said something you will never see me say doesn't make it so. I think you are at the point of just trying to mispresent people. I have seen you bear false witness several times today. Not very Christian at all.

We see this, in the proper reading, is how he is the origin of the creation of God. Again you place him before creation rather than part of it. You are getting closer to seeing the true one sent from heaven.

The proper reading is that Jesus is creation. This is totally in line with John 1:3,14 and Colossians 1:15 which places Jesus in the creation and not independent of it and status

 

[mikesw]

That is not what I said at all. I said the Word is a thing just like apostle John wrote through divine inspiration in 1 John 1:1-3. Just pretending I said something you will never see me say doesn't make it so. I think you are at the point of just trying to mispresent people. I have seen you bear false witness several times today. Not very Christian at all.

You just used John 1:3 and 14 to speak of Jesus. Now you are denying it. THrough Jesus all things were created. Otherwise, you could not use that verse for your argument.

The proper reading is that Jesus is creation. This is totally in line with John 1:3,14 and Colossians 1:15 which places Jesus in the creation and not independent of it and status

If Jesus were not the image of the Father, he would just be invisible. That is the alternative option. You just neglect the logic so you can deny Christ.