Trinitarian Training

[amazing grace]

wow. now you are claiming Jesus is many people. All you do however is deny all the passages of Jesus' pre-existence and say you have made an argument

Nope I'M not claiming Jesus is many people - guess you don't recognize scripture when you read it. Eph. 4:1-7,11-13
You must not know about the body of Christ ---- made up of believers ---- the body of Christ has many members.

ALL of those verse have been regurgitated over and over. They are the standard cut and paste - I don't even think they have been read but just cut and paste without any thinking involved and no source of where they got the info. I actually refused to respond to each point . . .
I don't believe that Jesus' literally preexisted nor do I believe that any of those verses say that Jesus preexisted his birth. Jesus preexisted in the mind and plan of God, in God's foreknowledge. Just as we, collectively the church, were chosen before the foundation of the world.......just as Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world - literally? NO but in the foreknowledge and plan of God.

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:20]

 

[Runningman]

You just used John 1:3 and 14 to speak of Jesus. Now you are denying it. THrough Jesus all things were created. Otherwise, you could not use that verse for your argument.


If Jesus were not the image of the Father, he would just be invisible. That is the alternative option. You just neglect the logic so you can deny Christ.

Colossians 1:15 and 1 Timothy 1:17 are still there showing that Jesus isn't the invisible God, who Paul says is the "only" God. Revelation 3:14 explicitly states Jesus is created. Pick your arguments better because you can't change these facts.

 

[Runningman]

Nope I'M not claiming Jesus is many people - guess you don't recognize scripture when you read it. Eph. 4:1-7,11-13
You must not know about the body of Christ ---- made up of believers ---- the body of Christ has many members.

ALL of those verse have been regurgitated over and over. They are the standard cut and paste - I don't even think they have been read but just cut and paste without any thinking involved and no source of where they got the info. I actually refused to respond to each point . . .
I don't believe that Jesus' literally preexisted nor do I believe that any of those verses say that Jesus preexisted his birth. Jesus preexisted in the mind and plan of God, in God's foreknowledge. Just as we, collectively the church, were chosen before the foundation of the world.......just as Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world - literally? NO but in the foreknowledge and plan of God.

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:20]

Excellent example of how Jesus didn't literally pre-exist.

Another good one is Revelation 13:8, in which Jesus is stated to have been slain before the foundation of the world or before the world was created. Simply a nod to what God knew about Jesus prior to Jesus doing it.

Revelation 13
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[civic]

Excellent example of how Jesus didn't literally pre-exist.

Another good one is Revelation 13:8, in which Jesus is stated to have been slain before the foundation of the world or before the world was created. Simply a nod to what God knew about Jesus prior to Jesus doing it.

Revelation 13
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

its so easy to refutes the unitarians heresy concerning the Eternal Son with scripture. All you have is opinions of man whereas I have the testimony of many witnesses- Scripture, the Prophets, Apostles, Jesus ,the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.


Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9;You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

And

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses say that he is before all things.

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and was God- John 1:1

In the OT

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like the son of god

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?What is His name or His son’s name?

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

continued:

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 "Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 "This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 "This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 "But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in this passage.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

 

[Runningman]

its so easy to refutes the unitarians heresy concerning the Eternal Son with scripture. All you have is opinions of man whereas I have the testimony of many witnesses- Scripture, the Prophets, Apostles, Jesus ,the Father and the Holy Spirit.

The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.

John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.

John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.

John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.


Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9;You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

And

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses say that he is before all things.

Revelation 22:16
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning and was God- John 1:1

In the OT

Micah 5:2
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like the son of god

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?What is His name or His son’s name?

hope this helps !!!

Show any verse from the Old Testament of Jesus saying and doing anything.

 

[civic]

Show any verse from the Old Testament of Jesus saying and doing anything.

anoher uni strawman. He created all things and was before all created things- end of discussion

the scriptures exposed your erroneous doctrine which is why you diverted away from them with this nonsensical question.

next fallacy

 

[Runningman]

anoher uni strawman. He created all things and was before all created things- end of discussion

the scriptures exposed your erroneous doctrine which is why you diverted away from them with this nonsensical question.

next fallacy

So you have a lot of verses you take out of context and that's your argument, but when push comes to shove you actually have no examples of Jesus pre-existing and doing anything. Don't you see that as problematic at all? Your conclusions are all entirely post Biblical because you don't really understand the context of what people were talking about and what they believed. No one in the Bible believes that Jesus is God or God incarnate.

 

[civic]

So you have a lot of verses you take out of context and that's your argument, but when push comes to shove you actually have no examples of Jesus pre-existing and doing anything. Don't you see that as problematic at all? Your conclusions are all entirely post Biblical because you don't really understand the context of what people were talking about and what they believed. No one in the Bible believes that Jesus is God or God incarnate.

Projecting again .

All my scriptures say the same thing . Jesus preexistence His birth as a man.

Next fallacy

Boy you have 100’s upon 100’s of fallacious arguments.

 

[Runningman]

Projecting again .

All my scriptures say the same thing . Jesus preexistence His birth as a man.

Next fallacy

Boy you have 100’s upon 100’s of fallacious arguments.

The greatest point in Unitarianism about Jesus not pre-existing is that there are no examples of him pre-existing and the verses you bring up are explained better by the context.

Let's begin with your first passage. You mentioned John 1:1-3 but you are only begging the question. There is no one referred to as the Word in Genesis who was with God. Actually, God identified Himself using singular personal pronouns and a singular name in Genesis. So your conclusions don't match the broad Biblical context.

Next, John 1:30 explicitly states that Jesus is a man and it doesn't say that Jesus existed before John. It says Jesus was "before" him πρῶτός (prōtos) and it refers to being before John in the sense of principality and importance, not time. John is older than Jesus so your interpretation doesn't work.

This can go on like this for your entire post. You haven't explained much of anything, which is why I just jumped directly to the fact that you have no working examples of Jesus pre-existing.

 

[Jim]

Projecting again .

All my scriptures say the same thing . Jesus preexistence His birth as a man.

What do you think the moniker or title might mean prior to Jesus being born into the flesh and blood of a human being? The spiritual being identified as the Word in John 1 existed prior to Jesus' human birth. Was the Word the "Son" of God prior to Jesus' birth? Or is all of this mostly a semantic game? What is the significance of the preincarnate Jesus being the Son of God over and above the fact that He is called the Word?

 

[civic]

What do you think the moniker or title might mean prior to Jesus being born into the flesh and blood of a human being? The spiritual being identified as the Word in John 1 existed prior to Jesus' human birth. Was the Word the "Son" of God prior to Jesus' birth? Or is all of this mostly a semantic game? What is the significance of the preincarnate Jesus being the Son of God over and above the fact that He is called the Word?

He is/was YHWH. Many passages in the OT about YHWH are applied to the Son in the N.T. by the Apostles and the 4 gospel accounts.

Also anyone who heard or saw YHWH in the OT actually saw and heard the Pre Incarnate Son.

It was the Son who walked with adam in the garden, It was the Son who appeared to Abraham, it was the Son who appeared to Moses, it was the Son who wrestled with Jacob, it was the Son who was with Daniel in the fire. There are many other examples from the OT where YHWH ( the Son ) appeared to men.

Jesus emphatically declared: no man has seen the Father except the Son.

hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

John 1:1-14 is in line with Jesus being created.

Are you seriously saying that the Word, who was God (John 1:1c) and dwelt amongst people as Jesus (John 1:14), is created??? How stupid do you think we are to believe that God is created?

 

[Runningman]

Are you seriously saying that the Word, who was God (John 1:1c) and dwelt amongst people as Jesus (John 1:14), is created??? How stupid do you think we are to believe that God is created?

The Word isn't God though. Exegesis requires reading more than one verse because the rest of the Bible exists. We know from the Old Testament that Word isn't God, we know from John 1:1 that the Word is not The God, we know from 1 John 1:1-3 that the Word is a thing. We know from John 1:3,14, Colossians 1:15, and Revelation 3:14 that Jesus was created. Pretty easy to draw a proper conclusion. If you will believe what the Bible testifies you will get it right.

 

[mikesw]

Nope I'M not claiming Jesus is many people - guess you don't recognize scripture when you read it. Eph. 4:1-7,11-13
You must not know about the body of Christ ---- made up of believers ---- the body of Christ has many members.

ALL of those verse have been regurgitated over and over. They are the standard cut and paste - I don't even think they have been read but just cut and paste without any thinking involved and no source of where they got the info. I actually refused to respond to each point . . .
I don't believe that Jesus' literally preexisted nor do I believe that any of those verses say that Jesus preexisted his birth. Jesus preexisted in the mind and plan of God, in God's foreknowledge. Just as we, collectively the church, were chosen before the foundation of the world.......just as Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world - literally? NO but in the foreknowledge and plan of God.

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:20]

Sorry. You spoke of another Jesus.
I remain confused whenever a unitarian says Jesus did not preexist. that is sort of meaningless wording. I suppose that is one problem of unitarian interpretation methods (if there is such a thing). Certainly Jesus did not pre-exist as if there were a physical body of Jesus somewhere other than earth and then suddenly appeared on earth. the name Jesus (or Yeshua) did not exist for a body that had not been born at a time like 5BC. But the divine One did pre-exist in accord with scriptures. It would be very stupid wording for Jesus to say "Before Abraham was, I am" or to say "restore the glory I had with you before the world was"

 

[synergy]

The Word isn't God though. Exegesis requires reading more than one verse because the rest of the Bible exists. We know from the Old Testament that Word isn't God, we know from John 1:1 that the Word is not The God, we know from 1 John 1:1-3 that the Word is a thing. We know from John 1:3,14, Colossians 1:15, and Revelation 3:14 that Jesus was created. Pretty easy to draw a proper conclusion. If you will believe what the Bible testifies you will get it right.

Instead of running away to all those other Trinitarian verses that you always misinterpret, as I've shown you countless times, why don't you stand your unitarian ground with John 1:1c and John 1:14 and argue for your misguided cause? The reason why you don't is because you can't.

 

[mikesw]

Nope I'M not claiming Jesus is many people - guess you don't recognize scripture when you read it. Eph. 4:1-7,11-13
You must not know about the body of Christ ---- made up of believers ---- the body of Christ has many members.

ALL of those verse have been regurgitated over and over. They are the standard cut and paste - I don't even think they have been read but just cut and paste without any thinking involved and no source of where they got the info. I actually refused to respond to each point . . .
I don't believe that Jesus' literally preexisted nor do I believe that any of those verses say that Jesus preexisted his birth. Jesus preexisted in the mind and plan of God, in God's foreknowledge. Just as we, collectively the church, were chosen before the foundation of the world.......just as Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world - literally? NO but in the foreknowledge and plan of God.

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:20]

I remain confused whenever a unitarian says Jesus did not preexist. that is sort of meaningless wording. I suppose that is one problem of unitarian interpretation methods (if they have any method). Certainly Jesus did not pre-exist as if there were a physical body of Jesus somewhere other than earth and then suddenly appeared on earth. the name Jesus (or Yeshua) did not exist for a body that had not been born at a time like 5BC. But the divine One did pre-exist in accord with scriptures. It would be very stupid wording for Jesus to say "Before Abraham was, I am" or to say "restore the glory I had with you before the world was" unless he meant his divinity. It would not make sense for being about prophecy of him

 

[Jim]

He is/was YHWH. Many passages in the OT about YHWH are applied to the Son in the N.T. by the Apostles and the 4 gospel accounts.

Also anyone who heard or saw YHWH in the OT actually saw and heard the Pre Incarnate Son.

It was the Son who walked with adam in the garden, It was the Son who appeared to Abraham, it was the Son who appeared to Moses, it was the Son who wrestled with Jacob, it was the Son who was with Daniel in the fire. There are many other examples from the OT where YHWH ( the Son ) appeared to men.

Jesus emphatically declared: no man has seen the Father except the Son.

hope this helps !!!

That is not what I was asking. I fully agree that the Word (John1) existed prior to the birth of the man Jesus. We understand, given that the conception was by the power of the Holy Spirit, that the terminology of Son is quite appropriate. My question was what is the significant of the terminology of "Son" before Jesus' birth? I don't think there is any. Moreover, given that I don't believe in a physical afterlife, I don't think there is any significance to such terminology now. The human being that was Jesus is no more. There is only the Word, who has ascended and has been glorified in the Father's presence with the glory that He had with Him before the world existed (John 17:5).

 

[FreeInChrist]

Nope I'M not claiming Jesus is many people - guess you don't recognize scripture when you read it. Eph. 4:1-7,11-13
You must not know about the body of Christ ---- made up of believers ---- the body of Christ has many members.

ALL of those verse have been regurgitated over and over. They are the standard cut and paste - I don't even think they have been read but just cut and paste without any thinking involved and no source of where they got the info. I actually refused to respond to each point . . .
I don't believe that Jesus' literally preexisted

Do you believe the Word existed before Jesus?

AND DO NOT GO THERE WITH THE WORD IS NOT A NAME. I DO NOT KNOW YOUR AGE BUT I CAN GUARANTEE YOU THAT IF I SAID I GOT AN AUTOGRAPH FROM THE BOSS YOU WOULD KNOW EXACTLY WHO I WAS REFERRING TO.

There is only one of the three that has what my mama would call "a good Christian" name....

You start with God who said

Ex 3:14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” followed by

Ex 3:15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

So we are told our Heavenly Fathers name is I AM. Good to know right for if someone were to ask you you can say my Heavenly Father is IAM.

Now.... you tell me..... What is the name of the Holy Spirit? What???????????/ You do not know....?????????????

Here is another case where we have many multiple verses in the bible that simply call the Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit... and once in a while the writers of the bible may have gotten tired and only wrote "Spirit".

So we have I AM... from before time. We have the Holy Spirit before time. And we have The Word before time and how do I know this????? Because the Word spoke everything into existence.... He seemingly was I AMs mouth.

And it is most likely that the Word was with Mose on the Mount.

Have you not heard that God has no body parts??????????? I have. But the one on the mountain with Moses had
a hand to cover Moses eyes and a back that Moses could see when He passed.

And numerous other times.... the Word was around.

Fast forward to a baby was going to be conceived.

And an angel told Mary, and Joseph separately They had to name the baby Jesus because "Jesus" because he will save his people from their sins (Matthew 1:21). The name Jesus means "God saves."

We have 3 available to come to earth to become flesh and blood. I AM, The Holy Spirit, and The Word.

Of the three... which one would you think would be chosen or volunteer? Stop and think....

It was the Word... correct. And he was born and named Jesus because I am said to.

This is so easy to understand but when the rest of your sentence says "nor do I believe that any of those verses say that Jesus preexisted his birth." you could not be more wrong.

First Why would you not want to believe The Word became Jesus? Have you never changed your user name in any forum you have been on? He had to blend in. He had to appear as normal as all others which is a topic for another thread....

So I AM and the Holy Spirit and Jesus were responsible for getting us ushered to where we want out eternities to be.

Jesus was before birth... just with a different name....

Get over it

nor do I believe that any of those verses say that Jesus preexisted his birth. Jesus preexisted in the mind and plan of God, in God's foreknowledge. Just as we, collectively the church, were chosen before the foundation of the world.......just as Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world - literally? NO but in the foreknowledge and plan of God.

knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. [1 Peter 1:20]

 

[mikesw]

That is not what I was asking. I fully agree that the Word (John1) existed prior to the birth of the man Jesus. We understand, given that the conception was by the power of the Holy Spirit, that the terminology of Son is quite appropriate. My question was what is the significant of the terminology of "Son" before Jesus' birth? I don't think there is any. Moreover, given that I don't believe in a physical afterlife, I don't think there is any significance to such terminology now. The human being that was Jesus is no more. There is only the Word, who has ascended and has been glorified in the Father's presence with the glory that He had with Him before the world existed (John 17:5).

Link: #Explaining the Word

In that post I present that John 1, in part, uses logos as a representation of the role and activity of the divine One without a formal name being shared previously in the OT. The use of logos also answers both Philo and Greco-Roman philosophy that present a concept of logos. As John 1 continues, he shows that this is who we see as the Son of God and as Jesus through incarnation. This approach helps me avoid decide whether "Son" applies only to Jesus in incarnation.

In this fashion, John takes this logos concept that everyone has heard about and says "you are actually talking about the one we now know as Jesus." Seeing John speak in this fashion helps us today realize there is a context for his use of logos that, to us, seems an unusual way to start a gospel. When we encounter something a bit cryptic in scripture, we should ask "why is this stated in an unusual way?" And should ask "am I understanding this properly?"