civic
Well-known member
There is no sin nature and once again no scripture to support your heretical Augustinian beliefs.
Transmitting The Fallen Nature
- Thread starter Olde Tymer
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
Bible 101 and sin.A heretic is known by the company he keeps.
That one was not too bad...
And, its nice to know that you never had a sin nature.
Adam's fall was Adam's Nothing to do with you. Right?
I think you have a few heretical views of you own...........
James 1:13-15
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Now back to your dodge ball since I’ve proven several of your heretical views and their original sources
hope this helps !!!
GeneZ
Well-known member
Bible 101 and sin.
James 1:13-15
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
Now back to your dodge ball since I’ve proven several of your heretical views and their original sources
hope this helps !!!
Stop sinning.
civic
Well-known member
Another dodge and an ad hominem attack. A sure sign you cannot defend your doctrines by making personal attacks rather than addressing the argument. Projecting again.
GeneZ
Well-known member
What I said was not too bad.
Jesus called Peter "Satan."
No where near as severe.
And, goading is sinning.
Romans 7:23
but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
What's the law of sin that is in your body?
GeneZ
Well-known member
Too much actual fact....
Here you need to try being opinionated and sealing it by naming a creed. Not chapter and verse.
Romans 7:23
But I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me
a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. "
Who was apostle Paul anyway? Probably some heretic maker. Look what he did to Auguistine.
Last edited:
Johann
Well-known member
The conflict between the worse and the better principle in human nature appears in numerous passages in the classics. Godet remarks that this is the passage in all Paul's epistles which presents the most points of contact with profane literature. Thus Ovid: “Desire counsels me in one direction, reason in another.” “I see and approve the better, but I follow the worse.” Epictetus: “He who sins does not what he would, and does what he would not.” Seneca: “What, then, is it that, when we would go in one direction, drags us in the other?” See also the passage in Plato (“Phaedrus,” 246), in which the human soul is represented as a chariot drawn by two horses, one drawing up and the other down.
7:23 There is a real contrast between Rom. 6:2; 8:2 and 7:23. This verse clearly shows Paul's use of law (nomos) to refer to (1) the law of sin (cf. Rom. 7:21,25) and (2) the law of God (cf. Rom. 7:22, 25). Earlier in Rom. 7:4,5,6,7,9 and 12 Paul used the term for the OT. Paul was not a systematic theologian. He struggled with the concept of "law." In one sense it was God's revelation, a wonderful gift to mankind, yet in another it was that which defined sin and clearly set boundaries that fallen mankind was unable to keep. These boundaries were not only OT revelation (cf. Ps. 19:7-14; 119, but all moral guidelines: natural revelation (cf. Ps. 19:1-6; Rom. 1:18-3:31) or social mores and norms. Humans are rebels who want to be in complete control of their own lives!
7:24 Can this be a statement from a saved person? Some say no and, therefore, this chapter refers to moral, religious but unredeemed persons. Others say yes, that it refers to the tension of the gospel, "the already and the not yet" in the lives of believers. The eschatological fulfillment has not yet been manifested. The mature believer senses this gap most acutely.
NASB"the body of this death"
NKJV, NRSV"this body of death"
TEV"this body that is taking me to death"
NJB"this body doomed to die"
The physical body and mind are not evil in and of themselves. They were created by God for life on this planet and fellowship with Him. They were created "very good" (cf. Gen. 1:31). But, Genesis 3 changed mankind and the planet. This is not the world God intended it to be and we are not the people God intended us to be. Sin has radically affected creation. Sin has taken what was good and twisted it into self-centered evil. The body and mind have become the battle ground of temptation and sin. Paul feels the battle acutely! He longs for the new age, the new body, fellowship with God (cf. Rom. 8:23).
7:25 This is a summary and a transition to the higher ground of Romans 8. However, even in Romans 8 this same tension is seen in Rom. 7:5-11.
The question for interpreters revolves around of whom is Paul speaking?
1. himself and his experiences within Judaism
2. all Christians
3. Adam as an example of human beings
4. Israel and her knowledge of the Law, but failure to obey it
Personally, I combine #1 (Rom. 7:7-13,25b) and #2 (Rom. 7:14-25a).
The pain and agony of Romans 7 is matched and surpassed by the majesty of Romans 8!
Last edited:
civic
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
that makes you a sinner when you sin and act out in the flesh.
Galatians 5 explains it.
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
hope this helps !!!
Olde Tymer
Well-known member
● Matt 5:20 . . I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the
Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of
heaven.
Well the thing is: the piety of those two groups was superb and they were greatly
respected in the Israel of that day as primo role models. But their piety was cultural
rather than intrinsic; in other words; their righteous was produced by training
rather than by nature. In point of fact, they were by nature quite deplorable. (Matt
23:13-33)
● John 4:23 . .Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers
will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the
Father seeks.
In other words: God prefers to associate with folks who are righteous by nature
rather than only righteous by compliance with the structure of a religious system:
not even when it's His own God-given system. Compare Isa 1:10-16 wherein God
rejected His people's religious practices, even though their covenant with Him
required those practices, because at the core of their being (a.k.a. their hearts) the
people were unacceptable.
_
Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of
heaven.
Well the thing is: the piety of those two groups was superb and they were greatly
respected in the Israel of that day as primo role models. But their piety was cultural
rather than intrinsic; in other words; their righteous was produced by training
rather than by nature. In point of fact, they were by nature quite deplorable. (Matt
23:13-33)
● John 4:23 . .Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers
will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the
Father seeks.
In other words: God prefers to associate with folks who are righteous by nature
rather than only righteous by compliance with the structure of a religious system:
not even when it's His own God-given system. Compare Isa 1:10-16 wherein God
rejected His people's religious practices, even though their covenant with Him
required those practices, because at the core of their being (a.k.a. their hearts) the
people were unacceptable.
_
Last edited:
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
No one is righteous by nature. Jesus was saying that God's standard of righteousness is light years above what anyone can accomplish by following the law perfectly. That's where the Pharisees got it wrong. They thought they could be righteous by perfectly following the law.
The only righteousness we have is that which is imputed to use by faith. It's all Jesus and none of us.
Olde Tymer
Well-known member
When I was a young guy coming of age, it occurred to me that it would be the cat's
meow if I were as naturally pleasing to God as His son Jesus always is, because
then it would be very easy to attain to Heaven and to stay in Heaven without fear
of being kicked out:
"He that sent me is with me: the Father has not left me alone; for I do always
those things that please Him." (John 8:29)
I was surprised, and excited, upon discovering that something similar to the very
thing I wished for is contained in a promise that God made to His people long,
long ago.
● Ezek 36:24-27 . . I will gather you up from all the nations and bring you home
again to your land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean.
Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give
you a new heart with new and right desires, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will
take out your stony heart of sin and give you a new, obedient heart. And I will put
My spirit in you so you will obey My laws and do whatever I command.
That benefit was originally intended for the Diaspora but anon became available to
the Gentiles too.
● Isa 49:5-6 . . And now The Lord says-- He who formed me in the womb to be his
servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in
the eyes of The Lord, and my God has been my strength --He says: "It is too small
a thing for you to be My servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those
of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may
bring My salvation to the ends of the earth."
And sure enough, Ezek 36:24-27 is somewhat reiterated in the New Testament per
2Pet 1:3-4 which says:
"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through
our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these
He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you
may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption that's in the world."
I should think it goes without saying that the divine nature would be a whole lots
more successful at producing an acceptable level of piety than the human nature
could ever hope for because even at its best because the human nature is corrupt;
which is translated from a Greek word basically meaning decayed, i.e. seriously
deteriorated; like when road kill is left exposed to the elements for too long.
Decay can be stopped but it can't be reversed, and therein is a serious problem
with the human nature: it's gone beyond recovery and the sensible thing to do now
is take the natural-born human nature out of a man and rebuild him with a nature
that's imperious to decay. Well; it so happens God has a supernatural procedure for
just that very purpose.
● Col 2:11 . . In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful
nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision
done by Christ.
_
meow if I were as naturally pleasing to God as His son Jesus always is, because
then it would be very easy to attain to Heaven and to stay in Heaven without fear
of being kicked out:
"He that sent me is with me: the Father has not left me alone; for I do always
those things that please Him." (John 8:29)
I was surprised, and excited, upon discovering that something similar to the very
thing I wished for is contained in a promise that God made to His people long,
long ago.
● Ezek 36:24-27 . . I will gather you up from all the nations and bring you home
again to your land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean.
Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. And I will give
you a new heart with new and right desires, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will
take out your stony heart of sin and give you a new, obedient heart. And I will put
My spirit in you so you will obey My laws and do whatever I command.
That benefit was originally intended for the Diaspora but anon became available to
the Gentiles too.
● Isa 49:5-6 . . And now The Lord says-- He who formed me in the womb to be his
servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in
the eyes of The Lord, and my God has been my strength --He says: "It is too small
a thing for you to be My servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those
of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may
bring My salvation to the ends of the earth."
And sure enough, Ezek 36:24-27 is somewhat reiterated in the New Testament per
2Pet 1:3-4 which says:
"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through
our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these
He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you
may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption that's in the world."
I should think it goes without saying that the divine nature would be a whole lots
more successful at producing an acceptable level of piety than the human nature
could ever hope for because even at its best because the human nature is corrupt;
which is translated from a Greek word basically meaning decayed, i.e. seriously
deteriorated; like when road kill is left exposed to the elements for too long.
Decay can be stopped but it can't be reversed, and therein is a serious problem
with the human nature: it's gone beyond recovery and the sensible thing to do now
is take the natural-born human nature out of a man and rebuild him with a nature
that's imperious to decay. Well; it so happens God has a supernatural procedure for
just that very purpose.
● Col 2:11 . . In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful
nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision
done by Christ.
_
Last edited:
GeneZ
Well-known member
And, you have no sin nature.
Good score!
Yet? Jesus told his disciples to love one another as He had loved them.
John 13:34-35
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Jesus wanted his disciples to be self policing to keep themselves free of corruption.
Jesus was loving Peter when He called him 'Satan.'
For Peter would have remained dumb and stupid his entire life if someone did not have the courage to tell him the truth.
And, by the way.
Congratulations on not having a sin nature! You are like the lamb without spot or blemish. Representing having no sin nature.....
.........
I'm no Greek scholar but I'm seeing two different words used for flesh in Romans and the Galatians passages.that makes you a sinner when you sin and act out in the flesh.
Galatians 5 explains it.
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
hope this helps !!!
Everything I do is in my body, so this "different law" comes and goes as I sin? Your first sentence doesn't really even make sense. On the one hand James tells us we sin when we let our desires lead us away from God's will (His word of truth) which is an action of the mind but Paul is telling us there is a battle going on between the mind and the body. Your explanation effectively has the mind warring with the mind.
I think you'll find that the Galatians "flesh" is referring to the mind that is governed by the self-preserving attitude that the corruption in the body (sin nature) tempts the soul to entertain. Whereas the Romans reference is our actual body.
Your explanation is quite circular. What came first the sin or the law in my body that made me a sinner?
GeneZ
Well-known member
Interesting that the Law of Moses was given to make us aware that we are sinners...
Romans 7:12?
Paul has been answering a false charge from his critics: that he was teaching that the law of Moses was sinful.
He was not doing that. Instead, Paul taught how the law—God's commands—makes us aware of the sin already
within us.
That's kind of like what some are doig here...
You say one thing, and they distort it into something you were not saying.
May I call you Paul Jr.?
.... it needs more cow bell.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Note what you quoted from.....that makes you a sinner when you sin and act out in the flesh.
Galatians 5 explains it.
So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
hope this helps !!!
"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. "
If you had no sin nature in the flesh all one would desire would be food and sleep.. and maybe sex.
So if you are in the Spirit? You will not eat, sleep, or be married?
False doctrine always crashes into a wall of illogical speed traps down the road.....
civic
Well-known member
