Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[synergy]

Because for the, how many times has it been said, Christ was being forsaken because our sin was on Him. God was hiding Himself from our sin. Christ had become sin for our sakes. Was Christ left in the grave as we should have been if it were us on that Cross? No, because the Son was not despised but our sin sure was and still is.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I already mentioned the fact that Jesus was a sin-offering. That’s what Jesus being “sin for us” means. It means that Jesus was our Expiation. Expiation is the act of making amends or reparation for sins. It's the taking away of guilt through the payment of a penalty or the offering of an Atonement. That’s exactly what Christ did for us on the Cross. Thus the sin barrier is shattered between us and God. That’s what the tearing of the Veil in the Holy of Holies signifies. I already covered what you wrote and more.

In light of the fact that I covered what you wrote, I see that my explanation stands. The Father did not forsake the Uncreated Word of God in any shape or form. In fact, the Psalmist emphatically declares that the Father does not despise, does not hate, does not hide from, and always hears the afflicted, especially the Uncreated Word of God.

 

[synergy]

This what you have been doing with blanket statements simply by naming creeds to make your case...

That would be like Jesus responding to Satan in his temptation with the following....

​

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. ​

“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:​

​

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,​

and they will lift you up in their hands,​

so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’” Matthew 4:5-6​

If Jesus used your kind of response to a challenge requiring chapter and verse to properly counter?

Jesus would have stated....

"The Fifth Haifa Rabbinical accord says that what you said is wrong! ​

That is what you do by simply citing titles to creeds that most people have not studied.

But, what you do?
It might look good to the easily impressed and uninformed.

You are not educating anybody when you use that technique....

And, just citing Psalm 22? From an English translation?
Then making a blanket claim?
Might impress the same kind of person.

.......

I mentioned over a dozen verses from Psalms. I walked you through most of Psalms Chapter 22. You don't like to receive quotes for the word of God?

You don't like me quoting from the English Bible? Next time tell me which language you want me to quote from.

Anyways, you offered no counterargument to my explanation. Therefore, it is confirmed that the Father did not forsake the Uncreated Word of God in any shape or form. In fact, the Psalmist emphatically declares that the Father does not despise, does not hate, does not hide from, and always hears the afflicted, especially the Uncreated Word of God.

 

[GeneZ]

Cmon you are my brother in Christ and I don’t think any less of you today than I did years ago. Iron sharpens iron my friend

Sorry..

But you are not using iron by what you do.....

What you attempt does not end up making you any one any sharper.

Sad to report, what you and Synergy keep trying makes me to think you are a hopeless cause.....

For, even the most simple things that you are shown?
You keep finding are responses that I see are lame and inane ways, needing to keep rejecting. Done in ways that makes no sense Scripturally...

You do not give genuine counters designed to make one think. What you give are dull and blunt.
Its more like what the RCC did in demanding obedience to their "official" non-biblical dogma.

This is what really hurts....
It could make me to lose hope about you.

I Figure? You might be playing stupid in a desire to test me.
If you are? The way you do it makes me give up hope by thinking you have no capacity for the truth you keep denying.

What would give me hope?

If you said something more like...

"Yes, the Word of God does say that Jesus was being forsaken. ​

I just do not know how that is possible!"​

Instead?

You blindly declare that the Words of Jesus are actually misleading us because it does not line up with your sect's subjective thinking.

When one knows what Jesus said, and can not figure out why? They should hand it to the Lord and be silent.
Silent until the day the Lord shows you what is needed to be understood. But, what you do? Is to latch onto odd
rationalizations that some pseudo intellectual concocted, and declare it to be the the answer. It is like you are
mentally swerving on black ice when you do that.

God only honors sound doctrinal thinking....... Not, good intentions, or having human type noble thoughts towards God.

Peter was by human standards being highly noble in the following passage.

​

From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem,
and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed,
and be raised the third day.​

​

Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying,
“Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”​

​

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me,
for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”​

It can seem to be very noble (by our natural human standards) to declare that the Father could never possibly forsake the humanity
of Christ (while He was being immersed into our sins).

But, Jesus and the Bible say He was being forsaken.

It makes me wonder what spirit, like Peter, might be guiding you when you do that.

In Christ......

 

[GeneZ]

I already mentioned the fact that Jesus was a sin-offering. That’s what Jesus being “sin for us” means. It means that Jesus was our Expiation. Expiation is the act of making amends or reparation for sins. It's the taking away of guilt through the payment of a penalty or the offering of an Atonement. That’s exactly what Christ did for us on the Cross. Thus the sin barrier is shattered between us and God. That’s what the tearing of the Veil in the Holy of Holies signifies. I already covered what you wrote and more.

In light of the fact that I covered what you wrote, I see that my explanation stands. The Father did not forsake the Uncreated Word of God in any shape or form. In fact, the Psalmist emphatically declares that the Father does not despise, does not hate, does not hide from, and always hears the afflicted, especially the Uncreated Word of God.

Yes, you have covered it.

But the Bible in its full council does not mean what you keep forcing it to mean.

 

[synergy]

What would give me hope?

If you said something more like...

"Yes, the Word of God does say that Jesus was being forsaken. ​

I just do not know how that is possible!"​

This is how I phrased my question for everyone:

So how does one make sense out of the fact that on the one hand Jesus asks not to be foresaken; whereas, the Psalmist declares that the Father does not despise, does not hate, does not hide from, and always hears the afflicted?

How would you rephrase it?
And what is your answer to my question?

 

[GeneZ]

This is how I phrased my question for everyone.

So how does one make sense out of the fact that on the one hand Jesus asks not to be foresaken;

Jesus was asking why he was being forsaken.
Jesus was not asking not to be forsaken. To do so, would be to wish to not do the Father's will.

Why? To make future believers think and to ask questions as to what was taking place to come to an understanding in God's timing
of learning how God's justice was demanding to satisfied on the Cross for "our sins." Not for anything Jesus had donr.

whereas, the Psalmist declares that the Father does not despise, does not hate, does not hide from, and always hears the afflicted?

That gives us even more reason to search for why Jesus was being forsaken.
Because it could not have been for something He did!

 

[synergy]

Jesus was asking why he was being forsaken.
Jesus was not asking not to be forsaken. To do so, would be to wish to not do the Father's will.

Ok.

Why? To make future believers think and to ask questions as to what was taking place to come to an understanding in God's timing
of learning how God's justice was demanding to satisfied on the Cross for "our sins." Not for anything Jesus had donr.

That gives us even more reason to search for why Jesus was being forsaken.
Because it could not have been for something He did!

The Psalmist did not say that you should search for why Jesus was being foresaken by God.
To do so would mean that the Psalmist is bearing false witness in verse 24.

Therefore, I'll make one correction to my question:

So how does one make sense out of the fact that on the one hand Jesus asks why he is being foresaken; whereas, the Psalmist declares that the Father does not despise, does not hate, does not hide from, and always hears the afflicted?

Please answer this question. Take all the time you need. There is no rush.

 

[GeneZ]

So how does one make sense out of the fact that on the one hand Jesus asks why he is being foresaken; whereas, the Psalmist declares that the Father does not despise, does not hate, does not hide from, and always hears the afflicted?

Please answer this question. Take all the time you need. There is no rush.

If the Father was not forsaking Him because of despising Him?
And, the Father could not have forsaken him for being despised?
It will force the question to be asked as to why He was being forsaken.
God wants us to know why.

God wants us at times to have questions because the answer is not apparent.
Some passages are actually intended to perplex the reader.
God does that , so that when a teacher comes along and can explain why?
It reveals to the believers that God is with that man.
Kind of like when God sent signs and wonders to authenticate an OT a person sent from God.
Now its to be authenticated by having knowledge for the Bride of Christ as the means to transform us into His image.

Very few will be so qualified. Many will try to concoct an answer.
Many will wish to claim that position that God has reserved for only a few.
When a mystery is clarified its a sign that the one teaching has genuine authority from God, no more signs and wonders required.

 

[synergy]

If the Father was not forsaking Him because of despising Him?
And, the Father could not have forsaken him for being despised?
It will force the question to be asked as to why He was being forsaken.
God wants us to know why.

God wants us at times to have questions because the answer is not apparent.
Some passages are actually intended to perplex the reader.
God does that , so that when a teacher comes along and can explain why?
It reveals to the believers that God is with that man.
Kind of like when God sent signs and wonders to authenticate an OT a person sent from God.
Now its to be authenticated by having knowledge for the Bride of Christ as the means to transform us into His image.

Very few will be so qualified. Many will try to concoct an answer.
Many will wish to claim that position that God has reserved for only a few.
When a mystery is clarified its a sign that the one teaching has genuine authority from God, no more signs and wonders required.

It is interesting that Jesus asks why he is being foresaken in his afflicted state but the Psalmist declares that the Father does not foresake those who are afflicted. That exposes and answers a significant portion of the mystery.

 

[GeneZ]

It is interesting that Jesus asks why he is being foresaken in his afflicted state but the Psalmist declares that the Father does not foresake those who are afflicted. That exposes some of the mystery.

No one else in history has ever been afflicted with being the one to be bearing the sins of the entire world.
David was speaking of normal afflictions...

​

Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring;
he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his
knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be
accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities."
​

Isaiah 53:10-11​

...............

 

[GeneZ]

It is interesting that Jesus asks why he is being foresaken in his afflicted state but the Psalmist declares that the Father does not foresake those who are afflicted. That exposes and answers a significant portion of the mystery.

When a teacher asks a student in class what the answer is to his question is?
Does that mean the teacher does not know the answer?

Jesus was asking with full knowledge as to why....

 

[synergy]

No one else in history has ever been afflicted with being the one to be bearing the sins of the entire world.
David was speaking of normal afflictions...

​

Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring;
he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his
knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be
accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities."
​

Isaiah 53:10-11​

...............

It's interesting that you picked a verse based on the Masoretic OT text. That's the same text that the Jews altered in many ways in order to squash this abhorrent new religion called Christianity. Let's look instead at the LXX OT Text instead. That's the text that the Apostles overwhelmingly quoted from in the formulation of the NT.

Here is the correct rendering of Isaiah 53:10 as explained by @civic:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/isaiah-53-the-origin-of-psa.508/post-42424

 

[synergy]

When a teacher asks a student in class what the answer is to his question is?
Does that mean the teacher does not know the answer?

Jesus was asking with full knowledge as to why....

and the answer is: __________________________________. Fill in the blank line.

 

[GeneZ]

It's interesting that you picked a verse based on the Masoretic OT text. That's the same text that the Jews altered in many ways in order to squash this abhorrent new religion called Christianity. Let's look instead at the LXX OT Text instead. That's the text that the Apostles overwhelmingly quoted from in the formulation of the NT.

Here is the correct rendering of Isaiah 53:10 as explained by @civic:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/isaiah-53-the-origin-of-psa.508/post-42424

One day (when I was around 17-18 years old) relatives were visiting my parents house for a Sunday afternoon.
They would sit around the kitchen table talking, joking, and playing cards.

My older sister decided to walked into the kitchen to tell them to listen up because she wanted to read something for everyone to hear.

My Aunt Judy who was articulate and a professional woman, asked by sister to give to her what it was she wanted to read.
Everyone stopped talking... My sister pointed where to start, and she began reading ....

When done? My Aunt Judy turned to my sister, and told her in front of everyone in the room the following.....

"Buni! This is a Catholic Bible! We are Jews! This is about Jesus, and we Jews do not believe in Jesus! "

My sister must have smiled...

She then informed Aunt Judy that what she just read from was the Bible I was given for my Bar Mitzvah.
That what she just read was the Isaiah 53.

Dead silence.

That Bible was from the Masoretic text!

Please..... Don't believe all the propaganda you read.

 

[synergy]

One day (when I was around 17-18 years old) relatives were visiting my parents house for a Sunday afternoon.
They would sit around the kitchen table talking, joking, and playing cards.

My older sister decided to walked into the kitchen to tell them to listen up because she wanted to read something for everyone to hear.

My Aunt Judy who was articulate and a professional woman, asked by sister to give to her what it was she wanted to read.
Everyone stopped talking... My sister pointed where to start, and she began reading ....

When done? My Aunt Judy turned to my sister, and told her in front of everyone in the room the following.....

"Buni! This is a Catholic Bible! We are Jews! This is about Jesus, and we Jews do not believe in Jesus! "

My sister must have smiled...

She then informed Aunt Judy that what she just read from was the Bible I was given for my Bar Mitzvah.
That what she just read was the Isaiah 53.

Dead silence.

That Bible was from the Masoretic text!

Please..... Don't believe all the propaganda you read.

It is in fact a stunning disaster that Jerome created the Vulgate from the Masoretic Text instead of the Septuagint LXX text. Many English translations did the same thing. This is one of Christianity's greatest disasters to ever inflict us. That's why many quotes of the OT (in the NT) do not line up with the OT.

The most famous example of Masoretic manipulation is Isa 7:14 where the LXX says a virgin shall conceive whereas the MT says a young woman shall conceive.

Septuagint (LXX):
διὰ τοῦτο δώσει Κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει, καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ᾿Εμμανουήλ

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.

Masoretic Text:
לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל.

Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

 

[synergy]

One day (when I was around 17-18 years old) relatives were visiting my parents house for a Sunday afternoon.
They would sit around the kitchen table talking, joking, and playing cards.

My older sister decided to walked into the kitchen to tell them to listen up because she wanted to read something for everyone to hear.

My Aunt Judy who was articulate and a professional woman, asked by sister to give to her what it was she wanted to read.
Everyone stopped talking... My sister pointed where to start, and she began reading ....

When done? My Aunt Judy turned to my sister, and told her in front of everyone in the room the following.....

"Buni! This is a Catholic Bible! We are Jews! This is about Jesus, and we Jews do not believe in Jesus! "

My sister must have smiled...

She then informed Aunt Judy that what she just read from was the Bible I was given for my Bar Mitzvah.
That what she just read was the Isaiah 53.

Dead silence.

That Bible was from the Masoretic text!

Please..... Don't believe all the propaganda you read.

Am I correct is saying that your ancestors are Jewish? I just want to be sure. If so, could I ask you a question? What do Jews say about all the Greek-speaking Hellenized Jews that converted to Christianity? I know it's a long time ago but I heard that one of the greatest disasters to befall the Jews is when the Alexandrian Hellenized Jews created the Septuagint (LXX). That's because the LXX opened the flood gates into Christianity. Have you heard anything about that in your circles, whether Jewish or Christian?

 

[GeneZ]

It is in fact a stunning disaster that Jerome created the Vulgate from the Masoretic Text instead of the Septuagint LXX text. Many English translations did the same thing. This is one of Christianity's greatest disasters to ever inflict us. That's why many quotes of the OT (in the NT) do not line up with the OT.

The most famous example of Masoretic manipulation is Isa 7:14 where the LXX says a virgin shall conceive whereas the MT says a young woman shall conceive.

Septuagint (LXX):
διὰ τοῦτο δώσει Κύριος αὐτὸς ὑμῖν σημεῖον· ἰδοὺ ἡ παρθένος ἐν γαστρὶ ἕξει, καὶ τέξεται υἱόν, καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ᾿Εμμανουήλ

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.

Masoretic Text:
לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל.

Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Under Jewish Law such a young woman (Alma) was a young unmarried woman.

Under Jewish law it would have been understood to be a virgin in the Jewish culture, just like Mary was a young unmarried woman.

 

[GeneZ]

Am I correct is saying that your ancestors are Jewish? I just want to be sure. If so, could I ask you a question? What do Jews say about all the Greek-speaking Hellenized Jews that converted to Christianity?

All the Jews I knew never gave that a thought.
We are all Jews, and that was all that mattered to us.

As a norm they do not discuss Christianity.

 

[synergy]

Under Jewish Law such a young woman (Alma) was a young unmarried woman.

Under Jewish law it would have been understood to be a virgin in the Jewish culture, just like Mary was a young unmarried woman.

The difference is that a young maiden can conceive (out of wedlock) whereas a virgin cannot. The Masoretic version effectively denied the Incarnation which is exactly what Jews wanted to do in order to slay this abhorrent new religion called Christianity.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't see the point in continuing, you don't even understand what I'm saying in the first place. I wasn't making any appeal to Christ hallucinating. I was asking you if that is what you thought must be happening because either Christ was truly forsaken (which I believe) or he was mistaken/hallucinating or lying as they are the only alternatives if what Christ said isn't the reality.

As far as I am concerned it is very simple. Christ asked God why did He forsake Him and he did that because He was forsaken. He wasn't asking God why He was dying, He knew why He was dying. He told the disciples often enough what lay in store for Him.

"My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"

Not one of you can answer but instead build elaborate stories to try and negate the simplicity of Christ's statement.

I have dealt with the things you said time and time again. The simple reality is you don't believe what Jesus said is true. You have to make it into something other than it's plain and simple meaning. I'm seeing the obvious, you are the one who cannot see the obvious.

"My God, my God why have you forsaken me?"

Elaborate story? No. I haven't. I gave a simple explanation that true to the Scriptures. Ultimately. Believe what you want to believe. You're not my servant. Just don't pretend there isn't alternate choices here. There is.

Christ's life left His body. The Father never abandoned The Son. Never.